Subcutaneous Testosterone Injection Question

[Zero Tolerance]

Hey guys.. I've been seeing more discussions about this topic lately. If you remember - last year - me and a few guys experimented with this for a very short time - and were basically talked out of doing it.

Has anything changed since then? Have sub-q test injections gained any new ground over the past 6 months or so? Or is this just more experimentation?

Thanks...

 

[JanSz]

Hey guys.. I've been seeing more discussions about this topic lately. If you remember - last year - me and a few guys experimented with this for a very short time - and were basically talked out of doing it.

Has anything changed since then? Have sub-q test injections gained any new ground over the past 6 months or so? Or is this just more experimentation?

Thanks...

In June 19/07 I started my subq T & hcg using
BA- 31ga 5/16" long needle 3/10cc syringe
for either shot.

use 6" around navel for shots.
Newer had any problems, infections or anything.
Blood test shows TT as expected.
Estrodial as expected.
DHT as expected (on top of range)
I like the way it is.
Not going to change.
Overall rather skinny but I have a pound or two of fat around navel.
5'9" 165#
--------------------------

If someone have a paper thin skin in navel area, that is no fat whatsoever there,
the shot would then have to become under skin shot.
I would not shoot straight thru the stomach.

In that case I would rather switch to outside thigh area,
the skin is always paper thin there, but I would shoot straight 90 degrees, so the needle would go (tiny bit) into muscle.
Or upper outside quadrant of a buttock, straight no angles.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

Hey guys.. I've been seeing more discussions about this topic lately. If you remember - last year - me and a few guys experimented with this for a very short time - and were basically talked out of doing it.

Has anything changed since then? Have sub-q test injections gained any new ground over the past 6 months or so? Or is this just more experimentation?

Thanks...

1: Saudi Med J. 2006 Dec;27(12):1843-6.Links
Subcutaneous administration of testosterone. A pilot study report.
Al-Futaisi AM, Al-Zakwani IS, Almahrezi AM, Morris D.

Department of Medicine, College of Medicine & Health Sciences, Sultan Qaboos University, Muscat, Oman. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effect of low doses of subcutaneous testosterone in hypogonadal men since the intramuscular route, which is the most widely used form of testosterone replacement therapy, is inconvenient to many patients. METHODS: All men with primary and secondary hypogonadism attending the reproductive endocrine clinic at Royal Victoria Hospital, Monteral, Quebec, Canada, were invited to participate in the study. Subjects were enrolled from January 2002 till December 2002. Patients were asked to self-administer weekly low doses of testosterone enanthate using 0.5 ml insulin syringe. RESULTS: A total of 22 patients were enrolled in the study. The mean trough was 14.48 +/- 3.14 nmol/L and peak total testosterone was 21.65 +/- 7.32 nmol/L. For the free testosterone the average trough was 59.94 +/- 20.60 pmol/L and the peak was 85.17 +/- 32.88 pmol/L. All of the patients delivered testosterone with ease and no local reactions were reported. CONCLUSION: Therapy with weekly subcutaneous testosterone produced serum levels that were within the normal range in 100% of patients for both peak and trough levels. This is the first report, which demonstrated the efficacy of delivering weekly testosterone using this cheap, safe, and less painful subcutaneous route.

PMID: 17143361 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Zero Tolerance]

So this is pretty good news.. I'm plenty content with IM injections but I'm not fond of the idea of running short on luck and ending up with an abscess and having a muscle cut-open 5 inches deep to drain it. HRT is something you do forever and I feel the chances of a major problem like this are much lower over the course of a lifetime with SubQ injections.

My doctor isn't a believer (yet) of SubQ - so I'm going to just go along with this and see what he says at my next blood test. Now does anyone know HOW MUCH is the max that can be injected SubQ on a daily or every other day basis? I'm guessing that my results won't be as good as IM unless I increase the dose a little bit.. How much CAN be absorbed this way?

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance...

 

[MarkLA]

So this is pretty good news.. I'm plenty content with IM injections but I'm not fond of the idea of running short on luck and ending up with an abscess and having a muscle cut-open 5 inches deep to drain it. HRT is something you do forever and I feel the chances of a major problem like this are much lower over the course of a lifetime with SubQ injections.

My doctor isn't a believer (yet) of SubQ - so I'm going to just go along with this and see what he says at my next blood test. Now does anyone know HOW MUCH is the max that can be injected SubQ on a daily or every other day basis? I'm guessing that my results won't be as good as IM unless I increase the dose a little bit.. How much CAN be absorbed this way?

I'd question both assumptions... I don't see why dosage would need to change. You're still getting x mg of test into your system.

I'm also not sure on whether SubQ is safer. I'd like to hear more on this. Obviously muscle is a deeper injection, but do people really have the same number of infections with muscle vs. Subq?

Mark

 

[babyblu]

I dont buy into SubQ as safer either. Most abscesses and problems with IM shots are based on:

1. infection from sanitation issue where a foreign agent is introduced into the body via the IM injection

2. the viscosity of the oil or the solvent used in the oil

Both of these problems can occur with SubQ method of injection. People can get abscesses and infections from a SubQ shot if they do not use proper sanitary precautions. I specifically had a problem when I did not inject deeply enough into the muscle (I think the oil leaked out) and it led to what looked like an abscess right under the skin. Eventually with lots of heating pad time, the oil absorbed and the bruising went away.

But in my opinion, an abscess is MORE likely to occur with a SubQ shot of Test b/c the viscosity of the oil makes it ill-suited for that method of absorption.

bb

 

[Zero Tolerance]

In regards to abscesses, I'd prefer to have one just under my skin (easy removal) as opposed to having one deep within a muscle. Especially in a glute, as I sit down most of the day while working (and then of course, most of the night while relaxing).

I also feel that if you need to cut open a muscle to remove an abscess, you'll be out of the gym a lot longer than if one needs to be removed just beneath the skin.

 

[babyblu]

That is a good point and I agree 100% that the severity of the abscess would by hypothetically less, however I also believe that hypothetically that the incidence of abscesses and infections would be higher using SubQ.

In regards to abscesses, I'd prefer to have one just under my skin (easy removal) as opposed to having one deep within a muscle. Especially in a glute, as I sit down most of the day while working (and then of course, most of the night while relaxing).

I also feel that if you need to cut open a muscle to remove an abscess, you'll be out of the gym a lot longer than if one needs to be removed just beneath the skin.

 

[JanSz]

So this is pretty good news.. I'm plenty content with IM injections but I'm not fond of the idea of running short on luck and ending up with an abscess and having a muscle cut-open 5 inches deep to drain it. HRT is something you do forever and I feel the chances of a major problem like this are much lower over the course of a lifetime with SubQ injections.

My doctor isn't a believer (yet) of SubQ - so I'm going to just go along with this and see what he says at my next blood test. Now does anyone know HOW MUCH is the max that can be injected SubQ on a daily or every other day basis? I'm guessing that my results won't be as good as IM unless I increase the dose a little bit.. How much CAN be absorbed this way?

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance...

I would turn around this question.
I want to inject only as much as neccessary to keep my
BAT ~575

I do E2D shots and test on the day of the shot, blood drawn before the shot.

For long time user, gage size of a T shot using Quest Diagnostic test:

Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
Quest Diagnostics: Test Menu

For someone just starting I would use good approximation for initial dose, using SHBG level.
Table on my post #40 here:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-2.html

for example someone with
SHBG=24.5

150 1058 24.5 300 x35.6 250

would use 150mg/week
that dose have to be splitted to E2D schedule

say using 200mg/mL test

150/7*2/200=0.214285

he would use

BD 31ga 5/16" long needle 3/10cc insuline syringe
and draw 21.5 units
--------------------------
Using this syringe and E2D schedule one can get max dosing of

(3/10)*7/2*200=210 mg/week

he would have to have SHBG=48 or in vicinity
to justify this dose

210 1397 xx48 300 x61.5 250

 

[Bungloid48]

My endo conducted the study quoted on top. Since then they have had all their patients on Sub-Q in quebec. It is the new standard. I've been doing it for a couple of months myself and other than a bit of itching a a tiny bump that lasts for a week or so, there are no problems. It is deeeeefinetly safer than IM by a long shot. It's also completetly painless.

 

[Zero Tolerance]

Thank you for the reply. I remember with my experiment last year that I had the same results - just no bump. The area was a little pink and itchy for a couple of days. No big deal. This SubQ method is really going to bring TRT into the mainstream... 99.9% of the people don't like the looks of inch and a half needles - nor do they have what it takes to stick it into themselves..

My endo conducted the study quoted on top. Since then they have had all their patients on Sub-Q in quebec. It is the new standard. I've been doing it for a couple of months myself and other than a bit of itching a a tiny bump that lasts for a week or so, there are no problems. It is deeeeefinetly safer than IM by a long shot. It's also completetly painless.

 

[Bungloid48]

Thank you for the reply. I remember with my experiment last year that I had the same results - just no bump. The area was a little pink and itchy for a couple of days. No big deal. This SubQ method is really going to bring TRT into the mainstream... 99.9% of the people don't like the looks of inch and a half needles - nor do they have what it takes to stick it into themselves..

I agree completely. Unfortunately in some circles (especialling BBing) it is frown upon and laughed at. Oh well. Their loss.

 

[rick055]

I remember with my experiment last year that I had the same results - just no bump. The area was a little pink and itchy for a couple of days. No big deal.

Same happens to me with hCG sub q navel injects. A small, pink bump at injection site, no big deal.

I think sub-q will be the future of TRT.

 

[JanSz]

Same happens to me with hCG sub q navel injects. A small, pink bump at injection site, no big deal.

I think sub-q will be the future of TRT.

Not only TRT.

Last Friday I got B12 injection at doc's office.
He whipped humungous syringe, probably 25Ga 1.5" needle.
I am not saying that the shot hurt, it did not.

But that was cyano-cobalamin.
I want methyl-cobalamin.
Today it arrived from compouning pharmacy.
I used 30Ga 1/2" long needle 1cc syringe.
Used my trusty pincushion, around navel.
Went like a charm.

Hate to stick nails into my body, if I do not have to.

Methyl-cobalamin have to be kept cold, shelf life 30 days.
2- 5mL vials $55 + $19 shipping (in a cooler with ice).

I will have to check my local compounding pharmacy,
possibly I could save at least on shipping.

 

[muslhead]

Alright, against my better judgement I will use Subq for my next shot rather than IM.
If I die, who should my heirs send the police to see?

MH

 

[jjohn]

Bumping up something old.

My buddy started prop and he went subq. He used a regular slin pin. He pushed 100 IU (1 ml) and said he has a bump around the injection the next morning. (which will go away I assume)

I will report back to let you guys know.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Bumping up something old.

My buddy started prop and he went subq. He used a regular slin pin. He pushed 100 IU (1 ml) and said he has a bump around the injection the next morning. (which will go away I assume)

I will report back to let you guys know.

It will; tell him the dissipation may take several days, but it will most definitely do so. In the future, if such bumps worry him (psychologically) tell him to forego an entire ML in one spot, and rotate (within the navel).

 

[jjohn]

It will; tell him the dissipation may take several days, but it will most definitely do so. In the future, if such bumps worry him (psychologically) tell him to forego an entire ML in one spot, and rotate (within the navel).

He used 3 different spots for the whole ml. He says he had a tough time sitting in his car, he pinned yest. lol.

Could this make the prop last longer then?

Maybe I couls suggest him pinning 50 IU ED instead of doing EOD at 1ml (which is too much for 1 injection site subQ)

Am I heading in the right direction here?

 

[Mulletsoldier]

He used 3 different spots for the whole ml. He says he had a tough time sitting in his car, he pinned yest. lol.

Could this make the prop last longer then?

Maybe I couls suggest him pinning 50 IU ED instead of doing EOD at 1ml (which is too much for 1 injection site subQ)

Am I heading in the right direction here?

He could do ED, which would invariably be better for his serum level stability anyway; that being said, he may not appreciate being a human pincushion.

Another option is rotating with Insulin Needles and 25ga 5/8" needles, which are also incredibly small but used for IM.

 

[crazilyfter42]

For those of you who have done this, where else did you inject besides the area around the naval? Are there any other areas that are acceptable? I would think the slower absorbtion of the oil would force you to rotate sites frequently. I would also think a better choice would be E or C instead of P b/c of the higher mg per ml concentration.

 

[jjohn]

Looks like prop is a bad idea. The 3 pink spots are still there. Less apparent, but there anyways. IM is the way to go for this one..

 

[brentf13]

I've been injecting T cyp subQ for months. I use a 29g 1/2 and inject subQ at a 45 degree angle so there isn't any leakage. I inject every three days .27ml and my TT was 872 on injection day prior to the injection. It works fine and no pain. I inject in the outer thighs. Pinch an inch of skin, inject, remove needle, and then release the skin.

 

[jjohn]

Interesting, but 1 ml EOD is impossible with prop.. The lumps are still apparent, and not really elegant....

 

[brentf13]

Never tried that. I will say that any more than .5ml subQ will be a little uncomfortable. T cyp seems to work fine subQ in small doses. I'm just using it for TRT so my doses are never very high. I have no idea where the belly fat idea came from. It' a lot more comfortable in thigh skin. The bump goes away in about 10 minutes.

 

[poopypants]

for the safeness factor that was being discussed almost a year ago, just thought Id throw out there since I didnt see it..... your less likely to pin into a vein and have oil in your lungs if your pinning into a pinched layer of fat opposed to muscle that you cant even really see.

 

[JanSz]

Interesting, but 1 ml EOD is impossible with prop.. The lumps are still apparent, and not really elegant....

1ml EOD
that is 200mg EOD

even as average weekly dose 200mg is rather large.

Consider keeping your FreeT~300

you would need 1/4 of that dose or less.

No lumps.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

1ml EOD
that is 200mg EOD

even as average weekly dose 200mg is rather large.

Consider keeping your FreeT~300

you would need 1/4 of that dose or less.

No lumps.

I am sure the guy he is talking about is on a "cycle", and not administering TRT.

 

[jjohn]

1ml EOD
that is 200mg EOD

even as average weekly dose 200mg is rather large.

Consider keeping your FreeT~300

you would need 1/4 of that dose or less.

No lumps.

Yeah, problem is: This is an actual "cycle". And 1 ml EOD is necessary. (or .5 ml ED)After 3 days, there are still 3 lumps. Less apparent, but still there. Even .5 ml ED would be impossible. People would think you're allergic to bees..

 

[JanSz]

Yeah, problem is: This is an actual "cycle". And 1 ml EOD is necessary. (or .5 ml ED)After 3 days, there are still 3 lumps. Less apparent, but still there. Even .5 ml ED would be impossible. People would think you're allergic to bees..

I no nothing about cycles.

But every two days I do 3 injections.
day#1- Tshot
day#2- HCG & B12

so if I had to deal with 1cc/EOD or 0.5cc every day
I would choose every day.

well, pick one of these needles, below;

Also, you do not have to do "official" subQ (angled) shots, shoot them straight, (90 degree angle), that should prevent lumps.
You can shoot your usual
thighs, delts or glutes.
Skip area around navel, I found that it gets lumpy for a few hours, sometimes, but it is area wher I have to go slanted, I would be afraid to go straight thru over there.


http://hocks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=HOP&Product_Code=4724290&Product_Count=&Category_Code=
BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $25.95
http://hocks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=HOP&Product_Code=4724266&Product_Count=&Category_Code=
BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 1/2cc 5/16inch Short Needle 100/box Price: $25.95
http://hocks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=HOP&Product_Code=4724316&Product_Count=&Category_Code=
BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 1cc 5/16inch Short Needle 100/box Price: $25.95

 

[jjohn]

I don't see how you can inject subQ in the delts and glutes with a slin pin. Please explain.... The 1 CC are the ones..

 

[JanSz]

I don't see how you can inject subQ in the delts and glutes with a slin pin. Please explain.... The 1 CC are the ones..

Just go straight, only deep enough as the needle allows.

 

[jjohn]

Just go straight, only deep enough as the needle allows.

Really... Hmm interesting.

 

[B5150]

Yeah, problem is: This is an actual "cycle". And 1 ml EOD is necessary. (or .5 ml ED)After 3 days, there are still 3 lumps. Less apparent, but still there. Even .5 ml ED would be impossible. People would think you're allergic to bees..

This forum is for the discussion of HRT/TRT/Anti-Aging Medicine only.

 

[crazilyfter42]

Just go straight, only deep enough as the needle allows.

That is interesting, you don't end up hitting the muscle doing this?

 

[JanSz]

That is interesting, you don't end up hitting the muscle doing this?

Stop worrying about needle going into muscle.
You have bought into unnecessary bs.
Do shots as we are discussing here.
Do a blood test and see if you have expected amount of testosterone in the blood.
Nothing else is important.

I do just this type of shots, do my blood tests, and get results as expected.

Lets not complicate things that are simple.

 

[jjohn]

This forum is for the discussion of HRT/TRT/Anti-Aging Medicine only.

Sorry B.

 

[brentf13]

I agree. T cyp was to be injected IM because it was designed to be administered at 400mg every three weeks for TRT. Obviously that doesn't work well nor would someone inject that amount SC unless you want a giant lump. Now that we know T cyp needs to be injected every three days for TRT the small amount we're using is fine SC.

 

[jjohn]

I agree. T cyp was to be injected IM because it was designed to be administered at 400mg every three weeks for TRT. Obviously that doesn't work well nor would someone inject that amount SC unless you want a giant lump. Now that we know T cyp needs to be injected every three days for TRT the small amount we're using is fine SC.

Exactly what I discovered.

 

[Jason12676]

Can someone put this into layman’s terms.

Currently I am doing 1cc of test cyp/week via IM 1'' 25ga needle into the glutes.

If I was to use a Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge to inject subQ - what would be the amount I draw into the syringe and frequency of the injections to keep pace with my current injection amount?

Also, would it be ok to inject subQ into the glutes?

 

[Philec48]

The 31g needle will probably use IU (International Units). What strength of testosterone are you using? 200mg/ml is a common strength, with 100mg/ml also out there. If you have the first one, that means you are using 200mg per week.

To get 200mg (with 200mg/ml strength testosterone) using IU, you would inject 100 IU. Best to split up your dose into two shots per week to keep more even levels.

Can someone put this into layman’s terms.

Currently I am doing 1cc of test cyp/week via IM 1'' 25ga needle into the glutes.

If I was to use a Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge to inject subQ - what would be the amount I draw into the syringe and frequency of the injections to keep pace with my current injection amount?

Also, would it be ok to inject subQ into the glutes?

 

[Jason12676]

The 31g needle will probably use IU (International Units). What strength of testosterone are you using? 200mg/ml is a common strength, with 100mg/ml also out there. If you have the first one, that means you are using 200mg per week.

To get 200mg (with 200mg/ml strength testosterone) using IU, you would inject 100 IU. Best to split up your dose into two shots per week to keep more even levels.

I am using 200mg/week @ 200mg/ml.

On the 31ga syringe it goes from 2-10. Is 100IU drawing up to the 10(almost full)??

Can I inject this in the glutes??

Thanks!!!

 

[Philec48]

My 31g needle goes from 5-30 (50-300iu). I don't know about the 2-10 scale that yours is (maybe 20-100iu???). You'll need to check with the manufacturer to be sure.

 

[Philec48]

Glute site is fine.

 

[Jason12676]

My 31g needle goes from 5-30 (50-300iu). I don't know about the 2-10 scale that yours is (maybe 20-100iu???). You'll need to check with the manufacturer to be sure.

After I looked at the needles I have they are actually 29ga 1/2'' 1cc - ranges 20-100 needle - will this work?

I would assume draw to 50 2x/week?

 

[Jason12676]

After I looked at the needles I have they are actually 29ga 1/2'' 1cc - ranges 20-100 needle - will this work?

I would assume draw to 50 2x/week?

Anyone?

 

[JanSz]

I am using 200mg/week @ 200mg/ml.

On the 31ga syringe it goes from 2-10. Is 100IU drawing up to the 10(almost full)??

Can I inject this in the glutes??

Thanks!!!

Insulin syringes are handy to use.
They come with small and short needles.
There is three sizes

1ml (have marks up to 100units)
0.5mL (have marks up to 50units)
3/10mL (have marks up to 30 units

Insulin syringes are marked in units.
Some have also 1/2 units marks (easy recognizable, no chance for mistake)

100units=1mL

Insulin syringes come at different qualities.
That is why I always use BD
They cost over 2x of the cheap variety.
Quality=-->smooth sliding piston, sharp needle, needle is still sharp after going numerous times thru rubber stopper on a vial (mixing HCG) and in the last run is still sharp to do comfortable injection, needle do not bend

For all my work I use only one type syringe, this one:

BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $27.80

I buy it at Hocks

I use those syringes for (T, HCG, B12) also for mixing HCG and dispensing liquid Anastrozole or Liquidex.
I do not use any other syringes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I use EOD EveryOtherDay protocol.
One day I do my (T + HCG + Anastrozole)
next day free

When using 200mg/mL testosterone
and EOD schedule
the size of T-shot vs toatal average weekly dose is as follows:

units -----weekly dose
10 ------------ 70
11 ------------ 77
12 ------------ 84
13 ------------ 91
14 ------------ 98
15 ------------ 105
16 ------------ 112
17 ------------ 119
18 ------------ 126
19 ------------ 133
20 ------------ 140
21 ------------ 147
22 ------------ 154
23 ------------ 161
24 ------------ 168
25 ------------ 175
26 ------------ 182
27 ------------ 189
28 ------------ 196
29 ------------ 203
30 ------------ 210

 

[Jason12676]

Since I have started the subQ my stomach has been cramping, almost stomach flu like symptoms.

I thought it was just coincidence but I stopped the SubQ injections for a week and all was well until I did one again today and again I have stomach pains.

I didn't experience this when I did the injections IM - Has anyone experienced these type of side effects using the SubQ injection?

 

[T Man]

Bumping for updated info....

 

[Roaddogma]

I've been doing weekly IMs of Test Cyp and want to give Sub-Q a try. Which size needle is should I be using- 5/16" or 1/2"?

 

[jdub1980]

Just got script filled and all they had was 200/mL instead of my usual 100/mL. They just gave me the 200/mL and cancelled the refill. This means that I will be injecting a half as much oil and I would like to try subQ. I have heard that oil disperses more slowly subQ than IM. If so, would it be alright to inject 50mg every 4 days subQ? Would an every 4 day schedule help to lower estrogen levels as opposed to every 3 days?