Clomid Therapy and lack of results

[Rausch]

So I won't rehash my entire story because that would be a book, not a forum post.

Diagnosed with low test in February and got on Androgel in March. Been on 5 g up until a couple weeks ago. My total test peaked on the 5g gel at about 700 units (300-900 being normal) and without explanation it dropped to 507.

I'm young and the hypogonadism may have been induced by anabolic steroids, so the doc wants me to try clomid (again). For the past 3 weeks I have been stepping down on the gel with a constant dose of clomid:


Week 1: 100mg clomid/day 5g (4 pumps) gel/day
Week 2: 100mg clomid/day 3.75g (3 pumps) gel/day
Week 3 (Current week): 100mg clomid/day 2.5g (2 pumps) gel/day

So prior to week 1 I tested at something like 507 total testosterone (late November) and last Friday (12/14), which was the end of week 2 (3 pumps) I tested at 471.

Going down 1 pump and dropping 40 units of my total t isn't too promising. I'm now in mid week 3 and not feeling too great. Energy and libido are down and I've noticed some decrease in muscle size.

I shot the doc an email about what step to take next -- i.e. go back on full TRT or continue w/ the clomid. I wanted to get the thoughts from experienced members of this forum as well..

What do you guys think?

I know some of you, as I've noticed, will only respond with: what's your estrogen/free test/etc...but the doc is looking at total t as the benchmark right now, so that's what I'm using for now.

[Rausch]

Additional info from the doc: LH and FSH are still testing well below normal.

[TheAnimalG]

I'm young and the hypogonadism may have been induced by anabolic steroids, so the doc wants me to try clomid (again).

I'm interested in what anabolics you have done, how many times, and at what ages. (at least as a warning to other youngsters that might want to get carried away)

More info might help others. Thanks

[JanSz]

So I won't rehash my entire story because that would be a book, not a forum post.

Diagnosed with low test in February and got on Androgel in March. Been on 5 g up until a couple weeks ago. My total test peaked on the 5g gel at about 700 units (300-900 being normal) and without explanation it dropped to 507.

I'm young and the hypogonadism may have been induced by anabolic steroids, so the doc wants me to try clomid (again). For the past 3 weeks I have been stepping down on the gel with a constant dose of clomid:


Week 1: 100mg clomid/day 5g (4 pumps) gel/day
Week 2: 100mg clomid/day 3.75g (3 pumps) gel/day
Week 3 (Current week): 100mg clomid/day 2.5g (2 pumps) gel/day

So prior to week 1 I tested at something like 507 total testosterone (late November) and last Friday (12/14), which was the end of week 2 (3 pumps) I tested at 471.

Going down 1 pump and dropping 40 units of my total t isn't too promising. I'm now in mid week 3 and not feeling too great. Energy and libido are down and I've noticed some decrease in muscle size.

I shot the doc an email about what step to take next -- i.e. go back on full TRT or continue w/ the clomid. I wanted to get the thoughts from experienced members of this forum as well..

What do you guys think?

I know some of you, as I've noticed, will only respond with: what's your estrogen/free test/etc...but the doc is looking at total t as the benchmark right now, so that's what I'm using for now.

If it did not worked first time,
good luck with the second pass.

Check your
FreeT3
FreeT4
Thyroid antibodies

low response to Androgel is often sign of thyroid issues.
When/if you go again for testosterone supplementation use shots, unless you have very low DHT.

[Rausch]

If it did not worked first time,
good luck with the second pass.

Check your
FreeT3
FreeT4
Thyroid antibodies

low response to Androgel is often sign of thyroid issues.
When/if you go again for testosterone supplementation use shots, unless you have very low DHT.

JanSz -

What did you mean by - good luck with the second pass? Does this mean you are skeptical that it won't work?

I need to know which direction to move in. I was finally fine with the androgel, at least for a while. Now that I am tapering off and on clomid, I feel run down and sick, I don't have a libido anymore, and I feel like I'm experiencing some muscle atrophy, although that might be in my head.

Is it worth simply going back to TRT and getting on shots? Is this clomid thing even worth it anymore?

EDIT: It just doesn't make sense for my hormones to not recover from anabolics usage unless there was a pre-existing issue...I've even had a CT scan to rule out damage to the pituitary.

[JanSz]

JanSz -

What did you mean by - good luck with the second pass? Does this mean you are skeptical that it won't work?

I need to know which direction to move in. I was finally fine with the androgel, at least for a while. Now that I am tapering off and on clomid, I feel run down and sick, I don't have a libido anymore, and I feel like I'm experiencing some muscle atrophy, although that might be in my head.

Is it worth simply going back to TRT and getting on shots? Is this clomid thing even worth it anymore?

EDIT: It just doesn't make sense for my hormones to not recover from anabolics usage unless there was a pre-existing issue...I've even had a CT scan to rule out damage to the pituitary.

I am not a doctor and I do not have steroid experience either using it or treating it,
but I have to see one person that recovered when started with a problem.

Depending on your mind set it may be worth a try.
It will take a long time and persistence to figure this one out.
=====================
there is many aspects to good health.

my short way

get tested at Quest and get:

FreeT3=4.2 (top range)
FreeE2 (0.45 - 0.6)
BAT=575

second pass

Get tested at Genova Diagnostics

EstroEssence
NutriEval

eat everything this tests tell you to eat
repeat those test every 4 monts
while eating previusly recomended supplements
always add to the list

That should help most of problems that we see around.

Good luck to all of us

[Rausch]

Ok so I got a copy of what they last tested. This was tested on 12/14/07 - while still using 3 pumps of gel+100mg clomid/day. I am currently on 2 pumps(2.5g)+100mg clomid. Next week will be 1 pump, and then just clomid the week after:

Testosterone, Total: 473.91 (350-890 ng/dL)
SHBG: 26 (13-71 nmol/L)
Testosterone, Free 112.4 (47-244 pg/mL)
Testosterone % Free: 2.4 (1.6-2.9)
FSH: <0.3 L (1.4-18.1 mUI/mL)
LH: <0.1 L (1.5-9.3 mIU/mL)

Does that paint a better picture?

Since I am on such a heavy dose of Clomid and I am decreasing my gel usage, I figured the LH/FSH would be increasing at least somewhat, but it's a no go.

Should I drop the gel altogether at this point or continue tapering off?

[Rausch]

No opinions?

[brogers]

I am NOT an expert, but I would certainly not expect your LH and FSH to rise much while still on exogenous testosterone.

I would wait until you've had blood drawn after being off of androgel for at least a couple weeks before drawing conclusions on the state of your pituitary. If you're really concerned about it, you could ask your doc to do a GnRH stimulation test.

Again, not an expert. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[anyman]

There is one Dr. well versed in helping people in your situation: Dr. John Crisler of Michigan. Might be worth the time and money. Can't think of too many things more important than the 'ol balls..... I am no expert, but the amounts of clomid you speak of seem incredibly high.