How much DHT is required for healthy libido?

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    How much DHT is required for healthy libido?


    Just wondering where the optimal DHT balance is between healthy libido and hair falling out. If I understand correctly, DHT is the only active form of testosterone that produces results like libido, muscles, etc. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

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    Hair falling out is genetic and happens when DHT acts on hair follicles that are genetically programmed to drop hair in the presence of DHT.

    For what is optimal, see this thread
    LifeExtension: Male Hormone Modulation Therapy
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    Quote Originally Posted by de49152 View Post
    Just wondering where the optimal DHT balance is between healthy libido and hair falling out. If I understand correctly, DHT is the only active form of testosterone that produces results like libido, muscles, etc. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

    Testosterone tends to be more anabolic than androgenic. So it tends to support muscle mass, fat loss, joint recovery etc. better than DHT.

    DHT tends to be more androgenic than anabolic. So it tends to support libido, erectile function and secondary sexual characteristics, such as body hair, better than testosterone.


    For optimal health and well-being, you need both.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpeil2 View Post
    Testosterone tends to be more anabolic than androgenic. So it tends to support muscle mass, fat loss, joint recovery etc. better than DHT.

    DHT tends to be more androgenic than anabolic. So it tends to support libido, erectile function and secondary sexual characteristics, such as body hair, better than testosterone.
    Thanks, this makes a lot of sense.
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    How do you get both? I take test-e IM because topicals did not work. I have lost libido, errect hardness even though my test levels are 899ng/ml. Maybe my free t is low. They were 34.9pg/ml in July but maybe they have dropped since I have been taken test-e for a longer duration.

    They were at 34.9 1 month after I started test so what they are now I guess I would need a new BT.
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    corndog,

    I wish mine was 899, but I guess T isn't everything. Have you tested other things like estrogen (E2), SHBG, prolactin, DHEA?
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    Have you tested other things like estrogen (E2), SHBG, prolactin, DHEA?


    BTW how much test are you being prescribed weekly?
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    Quote Originally Posted by corndog View Post
    How do you get both? I take test-e IM because topicals did not work. I have lost libido, errect hardness even though my test levels are 899ng/ml. Maybe my free t is low. They were 34.9pg/ml in July but maybe they have dropped since I have been taken test-e for a longer duration.

    They were at 34.9 1 month after I started test so what they are now I guess I would need a new BT.
    An enzyme called 5-alpha reductase converts some T to DHT, similar to how aromatase is the enzyme the converts some T to E.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildfox View Post
    An enzyme called 5-alpha reductase converts some T to DHT, similar to how aromatase is the enzyme the converts some T to E.
    Wild,

    why is the med community so afraid of DHT ??? I have a high DHT count, and my doc wants me on about 700 - 800 mgs of saw palmetto daily ( plus green tea and primrose ) ..... the **** makes me fat and kills my metabolism. I have my hair at 42 ( touch wood ) and little or no acne, so why is DHT considered so bad ????
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanMan View Post
    Wild,

    why is the med community so afraid of DHT ??? I have a high DHT count, and my doc wants me on about 700 - 800 mgs of saw palmetto daily ( plus green tea and primrose ) ..... the **** makes me fat and kills my metabolism. I have my hair at 42 ( touch wood ) and little or no acne, so why is DHT considered so bad ????
    Because of the relationship between DHT and BPH.
    MH
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanMan View Post
    Wild,

    why is the med community so afraid of DHT ??? I have a high DHT count, and my doc wants me on about 700 - 800 mgs of saw palmetto daily ( plus green tea and primrose ) ..... the **** makes me fat and kills my metabolism. I have my hair at 42 ( touch wood ) and little or no acne, so why is DHT considered so bad ????
    Because they no scrap about what estrogen does in a man's body, and think old school that high DHT causes prostate cancer.

    Because they don't stay current on research, and too many patients are happy to treat them like gods.
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    Quote Originally Posted by muslhead View Post
    Because of the relationship between DHT and BPH.
    MH
    DHT is not the culprit, with BPH, or prostate cancer, hair loss and obesity;its Excess Estrogen and the solutions are the Delgado protocol*!
    In summary, in most men past the age of 30, a gradual and insidious decline of testosterone is worsened by an increase in total body estrogens. Initially when and doctor decides a man needs augmentation of hormones and when one takes testosterone the free and total testosterone does increase, however depending on the deliver, oral, injection or transdermal; one will observe an increase in both DHT and estrogen.
    The problem is that when the conversion of E1 (Estrone), E2 (estradiol), E3 (Estriol) occurs most doctors of fitness athletes and consultants who check these levels assume everything is ok if the Estradiol remains within a reasonable range (under 40), however the downstream conversion occurs in all men and women into over 40 different estrogen metabolites. This is where the problem occurs! We in the know (Dr Delgado, Crisler, Hertoghe, Suzie Schuder, Naina Sachdev, and Ester Mark MD) monitor these levels by 24 urine collection to get the total load of estrogens, especially the 16aOHE (hydroxyestrone)-Rhein lab or ADL, (Genova lab does a blood test for 2OHE and 16aOHE-Dr Patrick Hananeway).
    The perfect hormonally balanced man- We then look at the ratio of 2OHE to 16aOHE, and so long as there is sufficient substrate from Bioidentical hormone augmentation, or the person in question is lucky enough to be age 16 to 24, when you get enough sex, your hair is thick, muscles bulging (provide weight training) and on a good diet that is low fat to prevent conversion of fat to estrogens in the intestines then dumping more into the blood and hair follicles, all is good.
    The correction is not the suppression of DHT or even to stop testosterone for men. The key is to clear the bad estrogens, with the Delgado Slim Blend, Estroblock, Lean N Fit, while moving to 75% complex carbohydrates, lean protein up to 15% to total calories and less than 10% or not more than 15% fat. Understand this script of total calories conversion on a standard 2000 calorie diet, that is 9 calories per gram of fat, so at around 20 grams of fat (9 calories per gram, x 20 grams divided by 2000 calories = 9% fat) food in natural whole foods, without added grease and oils, we prevent estrogen conversion.

    Use of hormones without dietary corrections would be like going into a barn fire with Kerosene instead of water to put the fire out! At over 40% fat, the average American diet, contributes over 90 grams of fat x 9 cal/g divided by 2000 calories = 40% fat (hamburger is 40 to 60 grams of fat, Kentucky fried Chicken is over 60 grams fat) men over time unable to burn these excess calories (radioactive tracers show that even if you are burning over 2000 calories, the fat is a secondary source of energy, as the brain needs glucose from complex carbohydrates at the rate of burn of 2 calories per minute, if one uses simple sugar coca cola, then calories enter at 18 calories per minute to fast to burn and excess turns into triglycerides (stored body fat or circulating fat).
    Where does all this Estrogen come from and what sources of dietary fat is a major contribution? The fat from Olive oil or corn oil, cheese, butter or meat is already in the form of triglycerides and since it goes directly into the lacteals of the intestines, the huge amount of undigested fats pour into the blood stream, and clump blood cells together and absorb into the fat cells without, needing digestion, showing up radioactive tracers into the fat cells. Worse the fat stimulates production of estrogens, which is a fat retaining hormone, allowing one to build and retain more fat on the body, with some of the estrogens concentrating into the prostate (BHP or later prostate cancer), hair follicles (hair loss) although the DHT is present in the scalp, the DHT increases in the scalp only because the androgens of Testosterone are not strong enough to compete with estrogen (estrogen is 1000- times more potent than testosterone) and only DHT can exist in a body loaded with estrogen.
    Delgado Protocol is the solution, not suppression of DHT- So Doctors then give finasteride, etc saw Palmetto thinking the bad guy is DHT, when in reality if they followed the Delgado Protocol, (as agreed by Patrick Hananway of Genova lab or Frank Nordt of Rhein Lab, and the other doctors listed above, we see the Estrogen comes back down as it clears out the urine (DIM, I3C and low fat diet clears the metabolites of 16aOHE (which blocks testosterone receptor sites) and the good Delgado diet and DIM, I3C in Estroblock and Lean N Fit allows the restoration of the good estrogen 2OHE (which doesn’t compete with testosterone).
    We then use a shampoo script to help the scalp not only reduce the DHT only in the scalp, but also helps clear the estrogen in the scalp the main culprit behind hair loss. Then if our guys want to restore hair growth we restore the testosterone which has in combination with GH (restored to youthful levels) and Thyroid (measure Free T3) the ability to stimulate new hair growth, better erectile function, more muscle, less body fat etc, in other words a man's man youthful rock hard body, with function to match.
    All this done without mega doses of Testosterone, GH, or synthetic types of Nandrolone (Body builders use the stuff because there is believed to be less conversion to estrogen, however there is evidence of progestin type compounds that are difficult to clear. The goal is steroid free, low dose augmentation of Bioidentical hormones (see the new cream Ultimate Hard body). I would also add the use of CVACsystems.com, optimum training, and the power of the mind like Secret training to achieve your goals.
    Your lab will show a initial decrease in urine bad estrogens (16aOHE and 4OHE, and increase in good 2OHE) while the estradiol drops slightly, and the estrone’s come down, then the DHT can drop down to its safer natural level, of 3 to 1 as compared to testosterone with a DHT of 300, one might have a testosterone of 900 and a Estrogen of 20 to 40. At this point you have corrected the primary problems of men’s health.
    For more information just read the male health and Testosterone articles on science, at www.ultimatemedicalresearch.com, also watch the video blog at www.nickdelgado.com or call 866-319-0566
    *Delgado Protocol –is based on over 25 years of research, with world experts from all over the world, for a combined program to support mind, body, spirit including the best of nutrition, supplements, natural hormones, CVAC and HBO oxygen therapy, fitness, and power of the mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDelgado View Post
    DHT is not the culprit, with BPH, or prostate cancer, hair loss and obesity;its Excess Estrogen and the solutions are the Delgado protocol*!
    In summary, in most men past the age of 30, a gradual and insidious decline of testosterone is worsened by an increase in total body estrogens. Initially when and doctor decides a man needs augmentation of hormones and when one takes testosterone the free and total testosterone does increase, however depending on the deliver, oral, injection or transdermal; one will observe an increase in both DHT and estrogen.
    The problem is that when the conversion of E1 (Estrone), E2 (estradiol), E3 (Estriol) occurs most doctors of fitness athletes and consultants who check these levels assume everything is ok if the Estradiol remains within a reasonable range (under 40), however the downstream conversion occurs in all men and women into over 40 different estrogen metabolites. This is where the problem occurs! We in the know (Dr Delgado, Crisler, Hertoghe, Suzie Schuder, Naina Sachdev, and Ester Mark MD) monitor these levels by 24 urine collection to get the total load of estrogens, especially the 16aOHE (hydroxyestrone)-Rhein lab or ADL, (Genova lab does a blood test for 2OHE and 16aOHE-Dr Patrick Hananeway).
    The perfect hormonally balanced man- We then look at the ratio of 2OHE to 16aOHE, and so long as there is sufficient substrate from Bioidentical hormone augmentation, or the person in question is lucky enough to be age 16 to 24, when you get enough sex, your hair is thick, muscles bulging (provide weight training) and on a good diet that is low fat to prevent conversion of fat to estrogens in the intestines then dumping more into the blood and hair follicles, all is good.
    The correction is not the suppression of DHT or even to stop testosterone for men. The key is to clear the bad estrogens, with the Delgado Slim Blend, Estroblock, Lean N Fit, while moving to 75% complex carbohydrates, lean protein up to 15% to total calories and less than 10% or not more than 15% fat. Understand this script of total calories conversion on a standard 2000 calorie diet, that is 9 calories per gram of fat, so at around 20 grams of fat (9 calories per gram, x 20 grams divided by 2000 calories = 9% fat) food in natural whole foods, without added grease and oils, we prevent estrogen conversion.

    Use of hormones without dietary corrections would be like going into a barn fire with Kerosene instead of water to put the fire out! At over 40% fat, the average American diet, contributes over 90 grams of fat x 9 cal/g divided by 2000 calories = 40% fat (hamburger is 40 to 60 grams of fat, Kentucky fried Chicken is over 60 grams fat) men over time unable to burn these excess calories (radioactive tracers show that even if you are burning over 2000 calories, the fat is a secondary source of energy, as the brain needs glucose from complex carbohydrates at the rate of burn of 2 calories per minute, if one uses simple sugar coca cola, then calories enter at 18 calories per minute to fast to burn and excess turns into triglycerides (stored body fat or circulating fat).
    Where does all this Estrogen come from and what sources of dietary fat is a major contribution? The fat from Olive oil or corn oil, cheese, butter or meat is already in the form of triglycerides and since it goes directly into the lacteals of the intestines, the huge amount of undigested fats pour into the blood stream, and clump blood cells together and absorb into the fat cells without, needing digestion, showing up radioactive tracers into the fat cells. Worse the fat stimulates production of estrogens, which is a fat retaining hormone, allowing one to build and retain more fat on the body, with some of the estrogens concentrating into the prostate (BHP or later prostate cancer), hair follicles (hair loss) although the DHT is present in the scalp, the DHT increases in the scalp only because the androgens of Testosterone are not strong enough to compete with estrogen (estrogen is 1000- times more potent than testosterone) and only DHT can exist in a body loaded with estrogen.
    Delgado Protocol is the solution, not suppression of DHT- So Doctors then give finasteride, etc saw Palmetto thinking the bad guy is DHT, when in reality if they followed the Delgado Protocol, (as agreed by Patrick Hananway of Genova lab or Frank Nordt of Rhein Lab, and the other doctors listed above, we see the Estrogen comes back down as it clears out the urine (DIM, I3C and low fat diet clears the metabolites of 16aOHE (which blocks testosterone receptor sites) and the good Delgado diet and DIM, I3C in Estroblock and Lean N Fit allows the restoration of the good estrogen 2OHE (which doesn’t compete with testosterone).
    We then use a shampoo script to help the scalp not only reduce the DHT only in the scalp, but also helps clear the estrogen in the scalp the main culprit behind hair loss. Then if our guys want to restore hair growth we restore the testosterone which has in combination with GH (restored to youthful levels) and Thyroid (measure Free T3) the ability to stimulate new hair growth, better erectile function, more muscle, less body fat etc, in other words a man's man youthful rock hard body, with function to match.
    All this done without mega doses of Testosterone, GH, or synthetic types of Nandrolone (Body builders use the stuff because there is believed to be less conversion to estrogen, however there is evidence of progestin type compounds that are difficult to clear. The goal is steroid free, low dose augmentation of Bioidentical hormones (see the new cream Ultimate Hard body). I would also add the use of CVACsystems.com, optimum training, and the power of the mind like Secret training to achieve your goals.
    Your lab will show a initial decrease in urine bad estrogens (16aOHE and 4OHE, and increase in good 2OHE) while the estradiol drops slightly, and the estrone’s come down, then the DHT can drop down to its safer natural level, of 3 to 1 as compared to testosterone with a DHT of 300, one might have a testosterone of 900 and a Estrogen of 20 to 40. At this point you have corrected the primary problems of men’s health.
    For more information just read the male health and Testosterone articles on science, at www.ultimatemedicalresearch.com, also watch the video blog at www.nickdelgado.com or call 866-319-0566
    *Delgado Protocol –is based on over 25 years of research, with world experts from all over the world, for a combined program to support mind, body, spirit including the best of nutrition, supplements, natural hormones, CVAC and HBO oxygen therapy, fitness, and power of the mind.
    That DIM stuff is so B.S.! Lost more libido than ever on that trash! Maybe that just my experience though.
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    Let's cut to the chase: If T is good and DHT low, how can one boost DHT ?


    Assuming that DHT is indeed responsible for or otherwise assists in libido, erections, etc., how does one boost it even if T is OK, whether naturally or via external T? What if someone like me, who is finally seeing some T increase via T cyp STILL has very low DHT? I am under range at 22 on a 25-75 +/- scale.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anyman View Post
    Assuming that DHT is indeed responsible for or otherwise assists in libido, erections, etc., how does one boost it even if T is OK, whether naturally or via external T? What if someone like me, who is finally seeing some T increase via T cyp STILL has very low DHT? I am under range at 22 on a 25-75 +/- scale.

    I have read of people using a compounded transdermal that actually contains DHT. This is controversial, though. Dr. Crisler says that using DHT in HRT can increase visceral fat - fat that surrounds the organs within the abdominal cavity.
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    Interesting. I wonder if that applies to people low on DHT.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpeil2 View Post
    I have read of people using a compounded transdermal that actually contains DHT. This is controversial, though. Dr. Crisler says that using DHT in HRT can increase visceral fat - fat that surrounds the organs within the abdominal cavity.
    This is worth pursuing. Thanks.
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    For some reason when I use test gels, they increase my DHT but not my total/free. Weird.
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