Versabase vs Carbomer - AnabolicMinds.com

Versabase vs Carbomer

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    Versabase vs Carbomer


    I just switched pharmacys and the new prescription is made with versabase. The old rx was carbomer. The versabase is thicker like a cream while the carbomer was thinner.

    I don't feel as well on the versabase. I've tried it for a couple of weeks. I'm looking for someone else's experience. Does the versabase result in higher or lower levels vs the carbomer?

    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nuker View Post
    I just switched pharmacys and the new prescription is made with versabase. The old rx was carbomer. The versabase is thicker like a cream while the carbomer was thinner.

    I don't feel as well on the versabase. I've tried it for a couple of weeks. I'm looking for someone else's experience. Does the versabase result in higher or lower levels vs the carbomer?

    Thanks!
    Go with a gel.
    Skip creams.
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    really? hmm, Dr. John switched us from College back to University pharm and they use more of a cream....the cream seems to make sure their is no 'frosting' but hmm....ill talk to him about it fri as ive had some other issues.
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    Scottyo
    Exact same situation here. Let me know what you find out.
    Any compounding pharmacists on the board? Maybe they can explain the different absorption characteristics of the two. I cannot find a reference. Maybe a dose adjustment is in order.
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    The Versabase is a proprietary cream base made by PCCA available only to PCCA members (Professional Compounding Centers of America). It is proven to delivery hormones through the skin, and should provide more penetration enhancement than carbomer gel. That being said, carbomer is exactly what Androgel is made of, so we know that it can work also. Any time you switch bases there will be a difference in absorbtion. As to the amount of difference, well, I don't think anyone can be certain about that. You will probably need to test levels. I would expect levels to be higher with Versabase if using the same dose, but as we all know individuals vary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPHMark View Post
    The Versabase is a proprietary cream base made by PCCA available only to PCCA members (Professional Compounding Centers of America). It is proven to delivery hormones through the skin, and should provide more penetration enhancement than carbomer gel. That being said, carbomer is exactly what Androgel is made of, so we know that it can work also. Any time you switch bases there will be a difference in absorbtion. As to the amount of difference, well, I don't think anyone can be certain about that. You will probably need to test levels. I would expect levels to be higher with Versabase if using the same dose, but as we all know individuals vary.
    Hi RPHMark

    IIRC you are pharmacist at compounding pharmacy?

    From your post I understand:

    Versabase=cream
    carbomer=gel

    Question;

    Is it possible to make pregnenolone gel?

    --------------------------------------------------
    Reason for this question:

    Looks like gel may be better than cream

    I was listining to (I think):

    ---------------------
    GS02m - Estrogen Metabolism: Modifying Risk in Clinical Practice
    Conference: A4M Orlando 2006
    Speaker: Patrick Hanaway MD
    Length: 31m 07s - 66 Slides
    April 9, 2006 5:00 pm - 5:40 pm
    -------------------------------

    and good doctor is taking about problems when women on HRT would use progesterone cream or pills.
    they would produce large amount of secondary estrogens that they are not able to clear.

    That does not happen when they use gel.

    Playng safe, I think that it also may be my problem, I am using pregnenolone cream.

    I will know better when my Estroessence test come back.
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    JanSz, yes I am a compounding pharmacist. There is no reason you couldn't make pregnenolone in a gel. Most of the "conventional wisdom" says a cream will give you better penetration through the skin, but clearly gels also work. I have done almost exclusively creams in my topicals though (mostly for women's HRT). Dr. Hanaway is great, but I'm not sure what that would be in reference to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPHMark View Post
    JanSz, yes I am a compounding pharmacist. There is no reason you couldn't make pregnenolone in a gel. Most of the "conventional wisdom" says a cream will give you better penetration through the skin, but clearly gels also work. I have done almost exclusively creams in my topicals though (mostly for women's HRT). Dr. Hanaway is great, but I'm not sure what that would be in reference to.
    Can I ask why you would think a cream would yield more penetration? Wouldn't the higher alcohol content (with proper PEs) of the gels yield better absorption?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPHMark View Post
    JanSz, yes I am a compounding pharmacist. There is no reason you couldn't make pregnenolone in a gel. Most of the "conventional wisdom" says a cream will give you better penetration through the skin, but clearly gels also work. I have done almost exclusively creams in my topicals though (mostly for women's HRT). Dr. Hanaway is great, but I'm not sure what that would be in reference to.
    Thank you,
    my next will be pregnenolone gel, but first I will double check results of my Estroessence test.
    ---------------------------

    E2 or some of it is eventually converted to
    ------------------------
    2-Hydroxyestrone
    4-Hydroxyestrone
    16α-Hydroxyestrone

    2-Methoxyestrone
    4-Methoxyestrone
    Quinones
    ------------------------

    When women use progesterone cream, they get too much of this stuff, body is not able to get rid of it.
    Supposedly it is easier with gells.
    This is one year old knowledge (I think).

    --------------------------------------------------------
    I have some of my notes I have made while listening:

    Metabolism of Estrogen
    Phase I
    + Major path (450)
    + Hydroxylation (C2, C4, C16)

    Phase II
    + Glucoronidation
    +Sulfation
    +Methylation

    Genomic diferences are reson for different speed reaction, %% of reactions and speed of

    elimination of different metabolites.
    Different genes = different outcome

    Phase I
    CYP450 1A1 --> 2OH
    CYP450 1B1 --> 4-OH ---> (Quinones Phase II) (cancer)
    CYP450 3A4/5 --> 16OH (cancer)

    Phase II
    COMT
    GST
    ===================

    Dr. Hanaway is at Genova diagnostics.
    Do not recall his position, but close to the top.
    His presentation contains mostly substance, very little time to snooze during his presentation.
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    Is there any published data on testosterone absorption in Versabase? I found some estrogen absorption claims. Could the Versabase be more sustained release vs the other?
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    dsade, Alcohol is a penetration enhancer (over just water or the powder) but generally it is thought that fatty acids present in creams allow for interaction with the phospholipids in the skin and allow for more penetration due to being lipid soluble. The gold standard for now is PLO gel with lecithin and isopropyl palmitate or myristate providing the lipid component. However, there is some thought that lipid soluble drugs (like hormones) tend to partition out of their base more quickly when the base is more hydrophilic (like alcohol). More quickly is not necessarily better with hormone delivery though. That is rambling a bit but it's just off the cuff.
    nuker- there is published info on versabase with progesterone and promethazine penetration through cadaver skin, but I don't have it with me.
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    Here is the progesterone/Versabase article:

    http://www.pccarx.com/pdf%20files/97...tudy_PRACT.pdf
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    fwiw - I know the difference between testosterone and estrogen is one carbon atom. I'd speculate that if some particular base makes for better absorption of one it would make for better absorption of the other.

    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkLA View Post
    fwiw - I know the difference between testosterone and estrogen is one carbon atom. I'd speculate that if some particular base makes for better absorption of one it would make for better absorption of the other.

    Mark
    I should have been more careful when listening to this important snippet. It threw me of because it was in regard to progesterone.

    The issue was not (directly) about better absorption, or speed of delivery.

    He studies via EstroEssence and EstroGenomic testing,
    amount of each hydroxy and metoxy estrones and quinones and estriol.

    That is Phase I and Phase II metabolism of estrogen.

    It makes difference if desired reaction happens faster or slower.

    While delivering external progesterone he liked gel best, when choice was pills, cream or gel.

    Again, that was about women and progesterone.
    ------------------------------
    16a-OHE and Quinones are carcinogenic, we want to have less of them.

    To have less can be achieved by

    producing less
    or
    metabolizing faster
    or both
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkLA View Post
    fwiw - I know the difference between testosterone and estrogen is one carbon atom. I'd speculate that if some particular base makes for better absorption of one it would make for better absorption of the other.

    Mark
    All of the steroid hormones are so similar that should hold true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuker View Post
    Here is the progesterone/Versabase article:

    http://www.pccarx.com/pdf%20files/97...tudy_PRACT.pdf


    Interesting that the Versabase shows a peak at 7 hours with cadaver skin. Can this time to peak correlate to living tissue?
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuker View Post
    I just switched pharmacys and the new prescription is made with versabase. The old rx was carbomer. The versabase is thicker like a cream while the carbomer was thinner.

    I don't feel as well on the versabase. I've tried it for a couple of weeks. I'm looking for someone else's experience. Does the versabase result in higher or lower levels vs the carbomer?

    Thanks!
    IMO, whenever you change bases, you will need to redo labs to make sure that your hormone levels are what you expect them to be.

    Thats why I try to find a pharmacy that I'm happy with and just stay with them so that I won't have to go through all that trouble again. Unless, they use a commercially available base which you are happy with and which you can instruct your new pharmacy to use. I prefer a vanishing cream base because it delivers slow and steady. At women's international pharmacy, they use their own proprietary vanishing cream base. Other commercially available vanishing cream bases are Vanicream and Dermabase, that are widely used. The "Cosmetic HRT" vanishing cream base available from PCCA is also supposed to be very good. Even when switching between vanishing cream bases, I would redo labs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1cc View Post
    IMO, whenever you change bases, you will need to redo labs to make sure that your hormone levels are what you expect them to be.

    Thats why I try to find a pharmacy that I'm happy with and just stay with them so that I won't have to go through all that trouble again. Unless, they use a commercially available base which you are happy with and which you can instruct your new pharmacy to use. I prefer a vanishing cream base because it delivers slow and steady. At women's international pharmacy, they use their own proprietary vanishing cream base. Other commercially available vanishing cream bases are Vanicream and Dermabase, that are widely used. The "Cosmetic HRT" vanishing cream base available from PCCA is also supposed to be very good. Even when switching between vanishing cream bases, I would redo labs.
    Before I switched to Tcream from Women's international pharmacy, I was using Androgel, 10 grams.
    With Androgel my TT~1000

    Then I switched to 1gram of 10% Tcream, that is I applied same amount of testosterone as before.
    My TT~400

    I dropped Tcream and switched to shots.

    I still worry about cream because I am using
    pregnenolone cream from same pharmacy.
    Both Tcream and preg cream looks identical, I bet the base is same.

    I plan on switching to gel.
    I hope that they have a gel.
    Is any body using their gel, what are the results?

    With 1gram of 100mg/1gram preg cream my pregnenolone tested in very low normal.
    Pregnenolone=11 (10-200) ng/dL

    I increased and now am using 2grams/day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post

    With 1gram of 100mg/1gram preg cream my pregnenolone tested in very low normal.
    Pregnenolone=11 (10-200) ng/dL

    I increased and now am using 2grams/day.
    The pregnenolone lab is not reliable/accurate to measure pregnenolone. Pregnenolone converts to progesterone. It is better to measure progesterone as an indicator of pregnenolone. Try to keep progesterone within the valid lab range. If progesterone is too high, it will indicate that your pregnenolone dosage is too high. Since you are using pregnenolone cream, it would be best to measure progesterone 3 hours after application of pregnenolone cream.

    Philip Miller M.D. author of "Life Extension Revolution" is not concerned with progesterone at 2.5 times top of the range. I prefer to keep progesterone and any other hormone for that matter within the normal range.

    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Before I switched to Tcream from Women's international pharmacy, I was using Androgel, 10 grams.
    With Androgel my TT~1000

    Then I switched to 1gram of 10% Tcream, that is I applied same amount of testosterone as before.
    My TT~400
    T labs should be done 3 hours after applying T cream. My labs show rise in T after T cream. Women's International have been around for a long time and are the biggest compounding pharmacy in the country and widely used. Their prices are also very good. If you have tested correctly as above, and still blood levels are no good, then either the lab is incorrect or the Androgel base gives you a better absorption.

    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I plan on switching to gel.
    I hope that they have a gel.
    Is any body using their gel, what are the results?
    They also have a alcohol gel similar to androgel base, but I have no experience with it. The gels have a lower shelf life than the creams. I buy 60 grams of T cream for $50, which lasts me 8 months at a cost of $6.25 per month.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1cc View Post
    The pregnenolone lab is not reliable/accurate to measure pregnenolone. Pregnenolone converts to progesterone. It is better to measure progesterone as an indicator of pregnenolone. Try to keep progesterone within the valid lab range. If progesterone is too high, it will indicate that your pregnenolone dosage is too high. Since you are using pregnenolone cream, it would be best to measure progesterone 3 hours after application of pregnenolone cream.

    Philip Miller M.D. author of "Life Extension Revolution" is not concerned with progesterone at 2.5 times top of the range. I prefer to keep progesterone and any other hormone for that matter within the normal range.



    T labs should be done 3 hours after applying T cream. My labs show rise in T after T cream. Women's International have been around for a long time and are the biggest compounding pharmacy in the country and widely used. Their prices are also very good. If you have tested correctly as above, and still blood levels are no good, then either the lab is incorrect or the Androgel base gives you a better absorption.


    They also have a alcohol gel similar to androgel base, but I have no experience with it. The gels have a lower shelf life than the creams. I buy 60 grams of T cream for $50, which lasts me 8 months at a cost of $6.25 per month.
    I wish I could get those prices. I pay 60 bucks for 60ml of t-cream, which last me 30 days equaly 2 bucks a day. This is through university pharmacy which is dr. john's preferred one. He doesnt care for women's international for some reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1cc View Post
    The pregnenolone lab is not reliable/accurate to measure pregnenolone. Pregnenolone converts to progesterone. It is better to measure progesterone as an indicator of pregnenolone. Try to keep progesterone within the valid lab range. If progesterone is too high, it will indicate that your pregnenolone dosage is too high. Since you are using pregnenolone cream, it would be best to measure progesterone 3 hours after application of pregnenolone cream.

    Philip Miller M.D. author of "Life Extension Revolution" is not concerned with progesterone at 2.5 times top of the range. I prefer to keep progesterone and any other hormone for that matter within the normal range.



    T labs should be done 3 hours after applying T cream. My labs show rise in T after T cream. Women's International have been around for a long time and are the biggest compounding pharmacy in the country and widely used. Their prices are also very good. If you have tested correctly as above, and still blood levels are no good, then either the lab is incorrect or the Androgel base gives you a better absorption.


    They also have a alcohol gel similar to androgel base, but I have no experience with it. The gels have a lower shelf life than the creams. I buy 60 grams of T cream for $50, which lasts me 8 months at a cost of $6.25 per month.
    "T labs should be done 3 hours after applying T cream."

    I newer used that way.

    Either when on Androgel or Tcream,
    I applyied them daily around 7:30AM
    I would do a blood draw first, then I would apply my transdermal.

    I use the same idea with shots.
    Blood draw I do on the day of the shot, time of the shot before shot.

    More or less what I am checking is a minimum testosterone level.

    I realize that there are all kid of arguments pro and con, this is may way.

    There was one member who swithed to dailt T shots for one six weeks or so period, for the purpose of figuring out better average weekly t dose.

    I do not go that far, but I do E2D shots.
    ============================== =================

    I have a P. Miller's book.
    Progesterone p95 p242

    Fo years I was always on top or over on "normal" range and within low Miller's range.

    If what you are saying, holds, I probably shoud have not even started pregnenolone supplementation.
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    RPHMark, What about lipoderm?
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    Lipoderm is a great penetration enhancer and will work fine for TRT, but it's probably overkill. They just don't normally need that much help to get into the skin and then the blood .
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPHMark View Post
    Lipoderm is a great penetration enhancer and will work fine for TRT, but it's probably overkill. They just don't normally need that much help to get into the skin and then the blood .
    RPHMark:

    Is PLO not the same as lipoderm?
    I know what some compounding Pharmacies use Lipoderm for PLO instead.
    I guess per-q would not be as good either than the PLO or standard cream.
    So really the best way to go the current Gold standard would be to use PLO Gel which is really the same as lipoderm?

    Thanks!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottyo View Post
    I wish I could get those prices. I pay 60 bucks for 60ml of t-cream, which last me 30 days equaly 2 bucks a day. This is through university pharmacy which is dr. john's preferred one. He doesnt care for women's international for some reason.
    Why 2ml/day? Usual daily dose is 1 ml.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpeil2 View Post
    Why 2ml/day? Usual daily dose is 1 ml.
    of what %?

    Some patients get the same results with 2ml as they do with 1ml. This would eliminate having to go to injcetions in some cases.

    Some patients react apparantley diffrent than others.
    Last edited by may19th2001; 09-16-2008 at 01:20 PM. Reason: typo
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    Lipoderm is the "new and improved" version of PLO. It has been shown with a couple of drugs to penetrate better than PLO, but in most cases it is irrelevent. Test. just does not need that much help to be absorbed (generally at least). There is also the possibility that if the base uses penetration enhancers like PLO and Lipoderm the test may be absorbed quickly and spike the blood levels then be metabolized and excreted more quickly than if a regular cream or gel base is used and the test is absorbed more slowly in to the skin then released into the bloodstream more slowly. Sort of a depot effect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPHMark View Post
    Lipoderm is the "new and improved" version of PLO. It has been shown with a couple of drugs to penetrate better than PLO, but in most cases it is irrelevent. Test. just does not need that much help to be absorbed (generally at least). There is also the possibility that if the base uses penetration enhancers like PLO and Lipoderm the test may be absorbed quickly and spike the blood levels then be metabolized and excreted more quickly than if a regular cream or gel base is used and the test is absorbed more slowly in to the skin then released into the bloodstream more slowly. Sort of a depot effect.
    I have noticed that is what many of the pharmacies use that comound is the Lipoderm version of the PLO.
    An RPH did recommend that cream was not the best for absorbing however standard gel or Plo would be the best.
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    FWIW, Dr. Shippen has instructed me to apply the T cream and test 3 hours later.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycjimi View Post
    FWIW, Dr. Shippen has instructed me to apply the T cream and test 3 hours later.
    Yes that is proper way to use it.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Before I switched to Tcream from Women's international pharmacy, I was using Androgel, 10 grams.
    With Androgel my TT~1000

    Then I switched to 1gram of 10% Tcream, that is I applied same amount of testosterone as before.
    My TT~400

    I dropped Tcream and switched to shots.

    I still worry about cream because I am using
    pregnenolone cream from same pharmacy.
    Both Tcream and preg cream looks identical, I bet the base is same.

    I plan on switching to gel.
    I hope that they have a gel.
    Is any body using their gel, what are the results?

    With 1gram of 100mg/1gram preg cream my pregnenolone tested in very low normal.
    Pregnenolone=11 (10-200) ng/dL

    I increased and now am using 2grams/day.
    I've done both cream and gel. After 10 weeks on cream (100 mg) my TT was 1711. The first four weeks on gel (same dose) - TT 1005 - after 12 weeks - TT 632. I should add that I didn't use HCG while on the cream but did with the gel.
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