good news :)

[RugbyHooligan]

went to the doctor last night and we had a long talk about my insurance issues and my request to go with the shots instead of the Androgel (and I had a list of compounding pharms for plan c). She agreed to put me on 200mg of test cyp per week done in twice weekly injections and after 6 weeks give me blood work to see how that is working with me.

I also relayed to her the concerns about estrogen with the injections and gave her info on Arimidex and how that could be dosed. And she is willing to work with me on this because of my concerns.

to be honest, I didn't expect her to be so receptive to this but she was. I gave her the list of blood work that I felt would be the best to test for and when my next bloodwork happens, it will be done...

its a HUGE load lifted off my shoulders now that I don't have to worry about fighting with my doc over the best course of action for TRT.

[user88777]

You have a great doctor there - arimidex and 200mg/week! That is a pretty big dose of test. I just moved and miss my old doc - they would run any test and pretty much do what I asked, now I'm in search of a new one. Most of the docs I call have no idea what arimidex or hcg are - and most of them want me to come in for shots - not!

good luck!

[MarkLA]

200mg sounds high. How did you come up with this dosage?

Mark

[BigAk]

You have a great doctor there - !

That's not a great doctor!!!! Has the defenition of a great doctor become to be the one who will do whatever you tell them to do??? Let's wait until RugbyHooligan runs into issue with his self-determined "copy-cat" HRT regimen and see how this "great" doctor does!!! LOL .... My prediction??? Oh.. sorry for your trouble, it's time to refer you to a specialist... then start from square one over again...

It kills me what you guys say sometimes!!!!

[JanSz]

went to the doctor last night and we had a long talk about my insurance issues and my request to go with the shots instead of the Androgel (and I had a list of compounding pharms for plan c). She agreed to put me on 200mg of test cyp per week done in twice weekly injections and after 6 weeks give me blood work to see how that is working with me.

I also relayed to her the concerns about estrogen with the injections and gave her info on Arimidex and how that could be dosed. And she is willing to work with me on this because of my concerns.

to be honest, I didn't expect her to be so receptive to this but she was. I gave her the list of blood work that I felt would be the best to test for and when my next bloodwork happens, it will be done...

its a HUGE load lifted off my shoulders now that I don't have to worry about fighting with my doc over the best course of action for TRT.

#1 congratulatios (and Happy Thanksgiving)

#2 2x/week that is about E3D schedule, very good
200mg/week may be too large a dose. Give me your SHBG and I will figure out better estimate. Or just go to a table in my post #40
Jan's BloodTest April13/2007
and figure out by your self

#3 You have to get HCG or you will loose your balls. Just cosmetic issue. But if you are going to use hcg, you probably will do it in two days in between T shots. That will be a shot every day.
So you may want to do E2D schedule. T & hcg on alternative days. Arimidex on T days.

#4 most likely, you will need AI while on T shots. I find Liquidex easier to live with. It is hard to cut evenly Arimidex pill.

#5 for both T and hcg use same size needle, 31ga 5/16" long 3/10cc
To use this 3/10cc syringe you have to be on E2D schedule otherwise syringe have too small volume.
Small needle size is mostly because of the scar tissue considerations, you will develop scar tissue in 10-60 years of frequent shooting.

#6 use this two tests from Quest to figure out your T & Liquidex dose

Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)

You want (my experience):

Estradiol, Free (0.45 - 0.6)pg/mL )
Testosterone Bioavailable (110-575)ng/dL at the top range

#7 PM me info on your doctor, cooperative doctors are hard to come by.
She must be within an hour drive from me.
I need to keep list of good names, in case my doc decide to retire early.

[JanSz]

That's not a great doctor!!!! Has the defenition of a great doctor become to be the one who will do whatever you tell them to do??? Let's wait until RugbyHooligan runs into issue with his self-determined "copy-cat" HRT regimen and see how this "great" doctor does!!! LOL .... My prediction??? Oh.. sorry for your trouble, it's time to refer you to a specialist... then start from square one over again...

It kills me what you guys say sometimes!!!!

I hope you will soon find specialist that will make you happy.

[BigAk]

I hope you will soon find specialist that will make you happy.

I already have Jan... I've been working with Dr. Crisler and been pretty happy with him.

You seem to miss my points all the time Jan (prob. as much as I miss yours )... What I meant to say is that a good doctor is a doctor who knows his stuff and does not need his patient to bring him up to date literature and research; or provide him for specific "copy-cat" protocols. I read many guys on here assessing their doctors according to the wrong criteria.

Here goes....

(Man... I went to the doctor yesterday and showed him Dr. X's protocol... told him I need x amount of Test per week, x amount of HCG every third day, and x amount of arimidex per week.... and guess what... He just wrote me a script no questions asked and sent me on my way.... Wow... bro... What a GREAT doctor .... I have surely lucked out... I am so excited I am already cumming in my pants just thinking about my next testosterone injection... WOOOO HOOOO...!!!!)

Now is that a good doctor Jan??? Be honest... tell me I'm wrong...

We all know Dr. John is a pioneer in his field... even when I present him with ideas I get from credible guys on this board, he disputes, disagrees or agrees and provides me with true credible evidence of whatever he says based on medical research. He never pushes HRT on me... Instead he helps me try to explore everything else before making the life-long decision if it ever comes down to it. And then, if I ever bite the bullet and get on HRT, I have a piece of mind knowing that if I ever run into issues, he's got a sure solution. There are a handfull of doctors in this country who possess this aspect... We all know that.

See what I mean Jan?? You still have my upmost respect despite our disagreements on a few things...

[BigAk]

That said... I will say that a doctor who's willing to listen and open his/her mind and adapt new ideas and research is far better than a doctor who does not... Maybe this is what define a good doctor as?? If so, I'm in agreement with you.

[RugbyHooligan]

ok, to the doubters...

150-200 mg a week is about average for a TRT regimen. I showed her research before I even went in and she did her own.... plus she has other patients on cyp but she prefers androgel because of the ease of use on her end.

we discussed this at length, and the reason why I gave her info about arimidex is because I honestly had no idea how much she did or didn't know... but she isn't ignorant.

but the fact that I didn't think she would go beyond Androgel but will work with me, the patient, isn't a bad thing.

IMO not all doctors do their research on the new innovations in medicine, you and I know that; and especially with HRT/TRT Lets face it, often we take it upon ourselves to do the research because it is our lives and not theirs. I NEED to be on TRT, my prior bloodwork has proven that, now that I am on it I want to be on the most effective, cheapest and least insurance company hassle way to do it.

A doctor should listen to a well-informed patient and use their knowledge with their own and attempt to make the best decision for the patient without compromising their long term health.

Not every doctor is an expert on TRT and I know that, and not every patient has the ability or time to travel to see Dr Crisling or Dr Shippen. On that note... I had NO idea Dr Shippen was in PA. He is real close to where I grew up so if worse comes to worse... guess I will be visiting him since I am within 4 hours away.

You all know this is a quality of life issue, and me being young yet and messing my body up from abuse of pro-hormones. I know you all know that. I know that TRT is for life but I'm willing to live with the inconvenience for a better quality of life.

If 200mg a week is too high, then we will find out and adjust accordingly. Simple as that.

[BigAk]

RugbyHooligan.... I wish you the best in your treatment. Good thing you're close to Dr. Shippen just in case you ever need him... hopefully never!!!

I didn't mean to start anything... and I didn't mean to imply that your current doctor is no good... I just wanted to argue a common trend on these msg boards and hope that I got my point across... If not, I'm not heart-broken about it...

[RugbyHooligan]

you are totally correct BigAk... doctors who treat patients solely on patients want without being intelligent about it and looking out for their health are foolish.

on another note, my doc wants to give me the shots herself and won't allow me to do it hahaha.

on the bright side, she isn't going to whack me an office visit for those.

[JanSz]

I already have Jan... I've been working with Dr. Crisler and been pretty happy with him.

You seem to miss my points all the time Jan (prob. as much as I miss yours )... What I meant to say is that a good doctor is a doctor who knows his stuff and does not need his patient to bring him up to date literature and research; or provide him for specific "copy-cat" protocols. I read many guys on here assessing their doctors according to the wrong criteria.

Here goes....

(Man... I went to the doctor yesterday and showed him Dr. X's protocol... told him I need x amount of Test per week, x amount of HCG every third day, and x amount of arimidex per week.... and guess what... He just wrote me a script no questions asked and sent me on my way.... Wow... bro... What a GREAT doctor .... I have surely lucked out... I am so excited I am already cumming in my pants just thinking about my next testosterone injection... WOOOO HOOOO...!!!!)

Now is that a good doctor Jan??? Be honest... tell me I'm wrong...

We all know Dr. John is a pioneer in his field... even when I present him with ideas I get from credible guys on this board, he disputes, disagrees or agrees and provides me with true credible evidence of whatever he says based on medical research. He never pushes HRT on me... Instead he helps me try to explore everything else before making the life-long decision if it ever comes down to it. And then, if I ever bite the bullet and get on HRT, I have a piece of mind knowing that if I ever run into issues, he's got a sure solution. There are a handfull of doctors in this country who possess this aspect... We all know that.

See what I mean Jan?? You still have my upmost respect despite our disagreements on a few things...

There is no disagreements between us.
If you have found your way that makes you happy, more power to you. And I am trully happy for you.

99% men have doctors and those doctors tell them that the tt~200 is perfectly ok for them.
Some of thise men go quiet with their life, some get depressed, one that I know of hung himself.

Minority (unfortunately it is minority) is not happy and looking for help. These people need directions and information.

And guess what, the guy with good information in his back pocket, he is asking for (oversized) script, but hi knows what he wants and changes his dosing according to test results and his goals.
Dose on a script is for general direction only.
Actually better written script would say:
"use as directed".
Script is just a means of getting controlled medicine to patient.

All above is not only about testosterne, testosterone is but just one of many things that can go wrong and need to be monitored and adjusted.

Have a good Thanksgiving.

[kwyckemynd00]

99% men have doctors and those doctors tell them that the tt~200 is perfectly ok for them.
Some of thise men go quiet with their life, some get depressed, one that I know of hung himself.

Do a pubmed search.

There are some pretty strong correlational studies that strongly suggest* that in psychologically normal men testosterone doses up to 600mg/wk have no ill effect on their psychology. What does this mean? This means that most likely your friend who killed himself probably wasn't psychologically normal and the testosterone at 200mg/wk wasn't to blame. So, while I'm sorry to hear about your friend I'm pretty sure you can rest easy for our friend rugbyhooligan.



(*I only use the term strongly suggest because using the term "proof" isn't quite accurate.)

[RugbyHooligan]

I'm pretty psychologically normal... for the most part. I'm prone to some tendencies but I think @ 200mg a week I will be fine.

[spinn]

Do a pubmed search.

There are some pretty strong correlational studies that strongly suggest* that in psychologically normal men testosterone doses up to 600mg/wk have no ill effect on their psychology. What does this mean? This means that most likely your friend who killed himself probably wasn't psychologically normal and the testosterone at 200mg/wk wasn't to blame. So, while I'm sorry to hear about your friend I'm pretty sure you can rest easy for our friend rugbyhooligan.

(*I only use the term strongly suggest because using the term "proof" isn't quite accurate.)

I think Jan meant most DRs consider a blood level of 200 to be a normal level of testosterone.

I saw 5 DRs who said this is normal and it cost me ten years of my life and probably $100,000.

[JanSz]

99% men have doctors and those doctors tell them that the tt~200 is perfectly ok for them.
Some of thise men go quiet with their life, some get depressed, one that I know of hung himself.

Minority (unfortunately it is minority) is not happy and looking for help. These people need directions and information.

Do a pubmed search.

There are some pretty strong correlational studies that strongly suggest* that in psychologically normal men testosterone doses up to 600mg/wk have no ill effect on their psychology. What does this mean? This means that most likely your friend who killed himself probably wasn't psychologically normal and the testosterone at 200mg/wk wasn't to blame. So, while I'm sorry to hear about your friend I'm pretty sure you can rest easy for our friend rugbyhooligan.



(*I only use the term strongly suggest because using the term "proof" isn't quite accurate.)

You would have to run this slowly be me again, I am missing what you are trying to say.

I will restate my understanding:
Low test = depression, I know of one who kill himself.
When I had low test I was badly depressed, at the time I did not corelate low test=depression,
otherwise I would have looked for help much sooner. I had suicidal thoughts. I had a bouts of anger.
When I raised my TT within 9mo to a year my depression was gone. I am happy camper now.

I think rugbyhooligan is doing very well.
His 200mg/week dose (on average) may be slightly too large.
It really depends on his SHBG.
Overshooting TT may not be detrimental to his psychological well being but on the long term it may not be healthy to the ballance of his health.

[RugbyHooligan]

low test is BIG TIME depression

I felt like hell for over a year and tried every OTC supplement to help until I got blood work.

TRT has given me back my mental health more than anything, which is priceless..

we'll see if 200mg a week is too high... I actually suggested 150 a week.

[RugbyHooligan]

Jansz, I will be paying for my next blood test out of pocket until my insurance kicks in in feb... so to give me the best bang for my buck what tests do I ask for exactly?

[JanSz]

Jansz, I will be paying for my next blood test out of pocket until my insurance kicks in in feb... so to give me the best bang for my buck what tests do I ask for exactly?

First, post what you have till now.

Minimum, at Quest, just two tests, to adjust T & E2

Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)

Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)

Written exactly as posted by me.
-------------------------------------------------------
If you have, post your SHBG
I may give you better estimate for your average weekly dose.
------
Do your T shots early in the morning.
Draw blood on the day of the T shot, time of the T shot, before T shot, about at the time of your T shot.
Do not eat or drink from a night before.
When you wake up drink about 20oz of plain water.
--------------------------

[RugbyHooligan]

I don't have the SHBG done...

those two tests will suffice? and how about the SHBG, is that a separate test?