HCG, anxiety, dyspnea, edema

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    HCG, anxiety, dyspnea, edema


    These are mentioned possible side effects for HCG on the information sheet. Can anyone explain why or more importantly what to do about it? Anxiety hits me really hard four hours after the injection and tapers off until the next one is due. Does anyone have the same consequence? I didn't find much about this doing a search, but it's mentioned on the product sheet.

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    The reason you are feeling anxiety after your shot is due to increased estradiol levels.

    Arimidex which is an aromatase inhibitor, will decrease this side effect.

    Dopamineloveaffair
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    why does HCG cause anxiety? here's a reponse from Marianco (Dr. Mariano) long time ago...

    ----------
    I can't give you advice since you are not a patient.

    However, I can give educational information about HCG (Chorionic Gonadotropin).

    The issue of HCG and panic attacks is much more complex than what appears on the surface.

    A partial account of the metabolic cascades involved is as follows:

    HCG acts like LH (Luteinizing Hormone).

    LH has several actions, such as:
    1. It stimulates testosterone production from the testes
    2. It stimulates the production of aromatase enzyme
    3. It stimulates the production of Cytochrome P450sc enzyme
    4. etc.

    Testosterone has several actions, such as:
    1. Increasing dopamine production in the brain.
    2. Increasing OR Decreasing Thyroid hormone production.
    3. Reducing ACTH production.
    4. Directly reducing Adrenal hormone production.
    5. Becomes Estradiol via Aromatase enzyme.
    6. Becomes DHT (Dyhydrotestosterone) via 5-Alpha-Reductase enzyme
    7. Promotes insulin sensitivity.
    8. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions.
    9. Excessive Testosterone can result in an increase in anxiety depending on the metabolic cascades involved.
    10. etc.

    Aromatase Enzyme:
    1. Turns Testosterone into Estradiol
    2. etc.

    Cytochrome P450sc enzyme:
    1. Turns Cholesterol into Pregnenolone
    2. etc.

    Estradiol (and other estrogens) has multiple actions, including:
    1. Acting as a Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitor in the brain
    2. Reducing thyroid hormone activity by increasing production of Thyroid Binding Globulin from the liver.
    3. etc.

    Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors (such as Estradiol) to varying extents:
    1. Increase Serotonin levels
    2. Increase Norepinephrine levels
    3. Increase Dopamine levels
    4. etc.

    Serotonin:
    1. Reduces the perception of stress - thus has an antianxiety effect.
    2. Reduces norepinephrine production from norepinephrine neurons - contributing to its antianxiety effect.
    3. Reduces dopamine production from dopamine neurons - if reduced excessively, this can increase anxiety
    4. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions
    5. etc.

    Norepinephrine:
    1. Is the primary signal for stress
    2. Excessive Norepinephrine can result in anxiety or irritability/anger.
    3. Has inflammatory signaling functions.
    4. Can increase energy by promoting adrenal hormone production - if the adrenal glands are not fatigued excessively
    5. etc.

    Dopamine:
    1. Promotes a sense of well-being, calmness
    2. Deficiency in Dopamine production can cause agitation or anxiety, etc.
    3. etc.

    Thyroid hormone:
    1. Promotes energy production, such as by increasing mitochondria production and thermogenesis.
    2. Promotes steroid hormone production - increasing testosterone production - thus lowering thyroid hormone can reduce testosterone production.
    3. Promotes IGF-1 production - which does most of the actions of growth hormone
    4. Increases serotonine production
    5. Promotes insulin sensitivity
    6. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions
    7. Deficiency in Thyroid hormone can result in anxiety or irritability/anger
    8. etc.

    Growth hormone/IGF-1 hormone:
    1. Can promote a sense of calm and well-being - deficiency of which can result in a higher level of anxiety.
    2. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions.
    3. etc.

    Adrenal Hormone production, includes:
    1. Cortisol
    2. DHEA
    3. Progesterone
    4. Testosterone
    5. Pregnenolone
    6. Adrenal cortex hormone production - particularly Cortisol - promotes energy production
    7. etc.

    Cortisol:
    1. Promotes energy - via gluconeogenesis, etc.
    2. Feeds back to the brain to reduce Norepinephrine production - resulting in reduction in anxiety.
    3. Deficiency in Cortisol production can result in anxiety
    4. etc.

    DHEA:
    1. Increases Dopamine production in the brain
    2. Promotes insulin sensitivity
    4. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions
    5. Deficiency of DHEA can result in anxiety.
    6. etc.

    Pregnenolone:
    1. Has a stimulant effect.
    2. Excessive Pregnenolone production can result in agitation, tension, or anxiety.
    3. etc.

    Progesterone:
    1. Has a calming, mood-stabilizing effect.
    2. Deficiency in Progesterone can result in agitation, tension, or anxiety.
    3. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions.
    4. etc.

    Insulin:
    1. Excess insulin can reduce testosterone production.
    2. Has pro-inflammatory signaling functions.
    3. etc. etc. etc.

    Immune System:
    1. Deficient antiinflammatory signaling may promote anxiety
    2. etc. etc.

    Nutrition:
    1. Certain nutrients are necessary to promote function across the nervous system, endocrine system, and immune system.
    2. Deficiency of certain nutrients can promote anxiety in response to HCG as a result of dysfunction in these systems.

    Thus, when HCG causes anxiety, the story is actually more complex than just the resulting increase in Estradiol.
    1. If HCG increases Testosterone excessively, it can cause a cascade that results in anxiety - e.g. by decreasing thyroid function, decreasing adrenal hormone production, etc - particularly if a person is predisposed to anxiety such as by having hypothyroidism and adrenal fatigue.
    2. If HCG increases Estradiol, it can cause a cascade that results in anxiety IF (a big if), Estradiol increases norepinephrine more than serotonin and dopamine, or if it results in significant thyroid hormone reduction (particularly if a person is hypothyroid and has adrenal fatigue).
    3. etc. etc. etc.

    The solution would involve examining all the involved systems and chemical messengers (neurotransmitters, hormones, etc) rather than just knee-jerk blaming only estrogen and attempting to reduce estrogen levels. The solution involves addressing the problems that are actually present (e.g. hypothyroidism, adrenal fatigue, excessive insulin, etc.) to reduce the risk of anxiety with HCG particularly when one wants to use HCG to preserve testicular size or to use HCG as a replacement for testosterone replacement therapy.

    Reducing estrogen levels blindly can increase the risk of multiple problems including anxiety itself - such as when estradiol more strongly increases serotonin than norepinephrine in a person.

    Lab tests and an exam would be necessary to help determine where the problem lies. Then solving the problem would not involve so much trial-and-error and guesswork.

    Yes, HCG can cause panic attacks in susceptible persons depending on the functioning of the nervous system, endocrine system, and immune system - the sum of which I call 'the mind".

    Quote Originally Posted by TiredOldFart View Post
    These are mentioned possible side effects for HCG on the information sheet. Can anyone explain why or more importantly what to do about it? Anxiety hits me really hard four hours after the injection and tapers off until the next one is due. Does anyone have the same consequence? I didn't find much about this doing a search, but it's mentioned on the product sheet.
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    Wondering, thank you so much for your detailed reply. I think we blame E2 very often when low-t treatment's aren't going perfectly. It seems that E2 is blamed for every nuance in male HRT. Matters are not that simple. That is why there are so few physicians good at this. I've had E2 tested several times while on Androgel and again just prior to starting HCG. It doesn't explain the reaction from HCG injections unless E2 can rocket just hours after the shot and crash you in the dessert. I would like to know if HCG can alter vascular permeability, leading to edema, regardless of water retention changes. I tried 1/2 mg of Aridimex three days apart and it didn't contain the distress a 250 or a 500 iu dose of hcg causes. I'm in the midst of a treatment change to incorporate hcg to prevent atrophy. My doc is trying to see what HCG alone will do, starting with total t of 450 and then ramp up the transdermal to fill the gap. The dypsnea and anxiety from HCG is a show-stopper.

    I've broken the doses up into the same dose per week but divided doses through time instead of the full dose in one shot. That has helped.

    I need to see my doc again and review these issues. I'm not pleased with Androgel's effects turning walnuts into acorns nor it's effect on bedroom "latancy". We were looking for baseline numbers on hcg alone after two months settling in. Then transdermal was to fill in the gap. I was pretty shut down by Androgel too, after a year. Atrophy and changes not specified in the Androgel sheet have not been acceptable. Information has not been forthcoming between the sales rep and physican concerning my concerns on this issue.

    Things have been made more complex by my hcg losing potency rather quickly, which confounded perception of the results. I think I need to return sooner than planned for the follow-up consultation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wondering View Post
    why does HCG cause anxiety? here's a reponse from Marianco (Dr. Mariano) long time ago...

    ----------
    I can't give you advice since you are not a patient.

    However, I can give educational information about HCG (Chorionic Gonadotropin).

    The issue of HCG and panic attacks is much more complex than what appears on the surface.

    A partial account of the metabolic cascades involved is as follows:

    HCG acts like LH (Luteinizing Hormone).

    LH has several actions, such as:
    1. It stimulates testosterone production from the testes
    2. It stimulates the production of aromatase enzyme
    3. It stimulates the production of Cytochrome P450sc enzyme
    4. etc.

    Testosterone has several actions, such as:
    1. Increasing dopamine production in the brain.
    2. Increasing OR Decreasing Thyroid hormone production.
    3. Reducing ACTH production.
    4. Directly reducing Adrenal hormone production.
    5. Becomes Estradiol via Aromatase enzyme.
    6. Becomes DHT (Dyhydrotestosterone) via 5-Alpha-Reductase enzyme
    7. Promotes insulin sensitivity.
    8. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions.
    9. Excessive Testosterone can result in an increase in anxiety depending on the metabolic cascades involved.
    10. etc.

    Aromatase Enzyme:
    1. Turns Testosterone into Estradiol
    2. etc.

    Cytochrome P450sc enzyme:
    1. Turns Cholesterol into Pregnenolone
    2. etc.

    Estradiol (and other estrogens) has multiple actions, including:
    1. Acting as a Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitor in the brain
    2. Reducing thyroid hormone activity by increasing production of Thyroid Binding Globulin from the liver.
    3. etc.

    Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors (such as Estradiol) to varying extents:
    1. Increase Serotonin levels
    2. Increase Norepinephrine levels
    3. Increase Dopamine levels
    4. etc.

    Serotonin:
    1. Reduces the perception of stress - thus has an antianxiety effect.
    2. Reduces norepinephrine production from norepinephrine neurons - contributing to its antianxiety effect.
    3. Reduces dopamine production from dopamine neurons - if reduced excessively, this can increase anxiety
    4. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions
    5. etc.

    Norepinephrine:
    1. Is the primary signal for stress
    2. Excessive Norepinephrine can result in anxiety or irritability/anger.
    3. Has inflammatory signaling functions.
    4. Can increase energy by promoting adrenal hormone production - if the adrenal glands are not fatigued excessively
    5. etc.

    Dopamine:
    1. Promotes a sense of well-being, calmness
    2. Deficiency in Dopamine production can cause agitation or anxiety, etc.
    3. etc.

    Thyroid hormone:
    1. Promotes energy production, such as by increasing mitochondria production and thermogenesis.
    2. Promotes steroid hormone production - increasing testosterone production - thus lowering thyroid hormone can reduce testosterone production.
    3. Promotes IGF-1 production - which does most of the actions of growth hormone
    4. Increases serotonine production
    5. Promotes insulin sensitivity
    6. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions
    7. Deficiency in Thyroid hormone can result in anxiety or irritability/anger
    8. etc.

    Growth hormone/IGF-1 hormone:
    1. Can promote a sense of calm and well-being - deficiency of which can result in a higher level of anxiety.
    2. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions.
    3. etc.

    Adrenal Hormone production, includes:
    1. Cortisol
    2. DHEA
    3. Progesterone
    4. Testosterone
    5. Pregnenolone
    6. Adrenal cortex hormone production - particularly Cortisol - promotes energy production
    7. etc.

    Cortisol:
    1. Promotes energy - via gluconeogenesis, etc.
    2. Feeds back to the brain to reduce Norepinephrine production - resulting in reduction in anxiety.
    3. Deficiency in Cortisol production can result in anxiety
    4. etc.

    DHEA:
    1. Increases Dopamine production in the brain
    2. Promotes insulin sensitivity
    4. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions
    5. Deficiency of DHEA can result in anxiety.
    6. etc.

    Pregnenolone:
    1. Has a stimulant effect.
    2. Excessive Pregnenolone production can result in agitation, tension, or anxiety.
    3. etc.

    Progesterone:
    1. Has a calming, mood-stabilizing effect.
    2. Deficiency in Progesterone can result in agitation, tension, or anxiety.
    3. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions.
    4. etc.

    Insulin:
    1. Excess insulin can reduce testosterone production.
    2. Has pro-inflammatory signaling functions.
    3. etc. etc. etc.

    Immune System:
    1. Deficient antiinflammatory signaling may promote anxiety
    2. etc. etc.

    Nutrition:
    1. Certain nutrients are necessary to promote function across the nervous system, endocrine system, and immune system.
    2. Deficiency of certain nutrients can promote anxiety in response to HCG as a result of dysfunction in these systems.

    Thus, when HCG causes anxiety, the story is actually more complex than just the resulting increase in Estradiol.
    1. If HCG increases Testosterone excessively, it can cause a cascade that results in anxiety - e.g. by decreasing thyroid function, decreasing adrenal hormone production, etc - particularly if a person is predisposed to anxiety such as by having hypothyroidism and adrenal fatigue.
    2. If HCG increases Estradiol, it can cause a cascade that results in anxiety IF (a big if), Estradiol increases norepinephrine more than serotonin and dopamine, or if it results in significant thyroid hormone reduction (particularly if a person is hypothyroid and has adrenal fatigue).
    3. etc. etc. etc.

    The solution would involve examining all the involved systems and chemical messengers (neurotransmitters, hormones, etc) rather than just knee-jerk blaming only estrogen and attempting to reduce estrogen levels. The solution involves addressing the problems that are actually present (e.g. hypothyroidism, adrenal fatigue, excessive insulin, etc.) to reduce the risk of anxiety with HCG particularly when one wants to use HCG to preserve testicular size or to use HCG as a replacement for testosterone replacement therapy.Reducing estrogen levels blindly can increase the risk of multiple problems including anxiety itself - such as when estradiol more strongly increases serotonin than norepinephrine in a person.

    Lab tests and an exam would be necessary to help determine where the problem lies. Then solving the problem would not involve so much trial-and-error and guesswork.

    Yes, HCG can cause panic attacks in susceptible persons depending on the functioning of the nervous system, endocrine system, and immune system - the sum of which I call 'the mind".
    HCG, anxiety, dyspnea, edema

    indicates inproper workings somewhere along higlighted text above.

    But in the end you want to do something about.

    At the moment my solution (that I also suggest to you TiredOldFart ) is this:

    JanSz-Metabolic Analysis and Cellular Energy

    I just came back from doctors visit.
    I thought that he is going to have action items based on that test results.
    he did but not what I expected.

    I got a thick questionaire plus I am going to provide detailed list of every medicine and supplements that I am taking.
    That is going to be evaluated by Nutritional company that my doc uses.
    More details in couple days on that thread.
    I will keep all details there for my reference and possible amusement of others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    HCG, anxiety, dyspnea, edema

    indicates inproper workings somewhere along higlighted text above.

    But in the end you want to do something about.



    I just came back from doctors visit.
    I thought that he is going to have action items based on that test results.
    he did but not what I expected.

    I got a thick questionaire plus I am going to provide detailed list of every medicine and supplements that I am taking.
    That is going to be evaluated by Nutritional company that my doc uses.
    More details in couple days on that thread.
    I will keep all details there for my reference and possible amusement of others.

    I appreciate your reply. But it doesn't address what to do if I want to continue on a program of hcg and later balance it with transdermal testosterone. What is the possibility that HCG is causing an inflammatory response? Could release of adrenalin and histamine triggered by hcg could cause these responses? I encounter these reactions rather promptly after the does. TIA
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiredOldFart View Post
    I appreciate your reply. But it doesn't address what to do if I want to continue on a program of hcg and later balance it with transdermal testosterone. What is the possibility that HCG is causing an inflammatory response? Could release of adrenalin and histamine triggered by hcg could cause these responses? I encounter these reactions rather promptly after the does. TIA
    You are probably on the border line someplace.

    If you worry about Inflamatory process somewhere, check your

    C-reactive protein,
    TNF-a tumor necrosis factor-alpha
    IL-6 interleukin-6
    IL-1(b) interleukin-1 beta
    IL-8 interleukin-6

    Inflammation (Chronic): Online Reference For Health Concerns

    Print Friendly
    =============================
    But I would start, as DLA suggested, with estrogens

    60 Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
    61 /------------------------------------ Estradiol, Free (Males (Adult): < or = 0.45 pg/mL )
    62 /------------------------------------ Estradiol (Males (Adult): < or = 29 pg/mL)
    63 Estrogens, Fractionated, LC/MS/MS (36742X)
    64 /------------------------------------ 968-1**Estrone, LC/MS/MS
    65 /------------------------------------ 968-2**Estradiol, Ultrasensitive, LC/MS/MS
    66 /------------------------------------ 968-3**Estriol
    67 Estrogen, Total, Serum (439X)

    The list is from my post #44
    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiredOldFart View Post
    I appreciate your reply. But it doesn't address what to do if I want to continue on a program of hcg and later balance it with transdermal testosterone. What is the possibility that HCG is causing an inflammatory response? Could release of adrenalin and histamine triggered by hcg could cause these responses? I encounter these reactions rather promptly after the does. TIA

    A similar thing happens to me. I believe it is an inflammatory response, not related to an estrogen spike. In me, it triggers respiratory symptoms - cough, wheezing, tightness in chest. Also, I turn bright red.


    I have been trying to use Ovidrel (recombinant hCG at very low doses). So far I haven't used more than 1.25 mcg (50 IU) at a time. It seems to cause some tightness in chest, so I haven't gone above that.

    Other than that, I don't have a solution for your dilemma. The usual solution if you are hypersensitive to a substance is to avoid it. Sometimes if you increase dose extremely slowly, you can desenstize yourself.
    Last edited by cpeil2; 10-26-2007 at 11:54 AM. Reason: correct typo
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiredOldFart View Post
    Anxiety hits me really hard four hours after the injection and tapers off until the next one is due.
    You should not need to take more than 100iu HCG SubQ per day. SubQ will provide a slower release. HCG at higher than 100iu per day will cause greater conversion to estrogen, which would account for your symptoms. Take this with 25mg T Cream applied as described in my posts.

    All of the info you need can be found by reading my old posts. This will avoid me duplicating the info here. My old posts can be found on this board as well as another board at http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/forumdisplay.php?f=9 .

    If you have questions after that, I would be glad to answer.
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    Can you describe the anxiety, the Anxiety I have experienced due to a sudden increased in E2 was aggitation.
    Are we talking panic attacks(feeling of dread) or anxiety as in agitation, or something else.

    What dose are you on?
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    i found this RE pregnenolone

    Benefits of Pregnenolone
    Some people find pregnenolone improves energy levels, vision, memory, clarity of thinking, wellbeing, and often sexual enjoyment or libido. Pregnenolone may be considered a good brain enhancer in those who are deficient. Studies in rodents show pregnenolone to be one of the most effective and powerful memory boosters. Pregnenolone may increase levels of acetylcholine in the hippocampus and other memory regions in the brain. Some women report lessening of hot flashes or premenstrual symptoms. However, pregnenolone is not risk-free.

    Possible Pregnenolone side effects
    Overstimulation and insomnia -- low doses could be helpful for sleep when taken in the morning.
    Irritability, anger or anxiety -- low doses could actually ease a person into a relaxed feeling, while higher amounts may lead to irritability.
    Acne
    Headaches
    Possible scalp hair loss if used daily for prolonged periods. Pregnenolone converts into DHEA, which in turn converts into testosterone and possibly on to DHT. Pregnenolone also can be converted into progesterone.
    Irregularities of heart rhythm, HEART PALPITATIONS, even on as low a dose as 10 mg
    Unknown effects on the thyroid gland or other organs and tissues.

    via..
    http://www.raysahelian.com/pregnenolone.html
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    Bump for an update.

    I would like to hear from TiredOldFart and cpeil2 as my hcg is ready to go but I am a little nervous as I already suffer enough anxiety as it is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsHectic View Post
    Bump for an update.

    I would like to hear from TiredOldFart and cpeil2 as my hcg is ready to go but I am a little nervous as I already suffer enough anxiety as it is.

    Yah, same and same.


    'Bachelor of Google'.... Employee? NY?
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    Quote Originally Posted by krazy View Post
    Yah, same and same.


    'Bachelor of Google'.... Employee? NY?
    Nah, aspiring shareholder would be closer though but they just jumped up again this week.
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    Quote Originally Posted by phatkid77 View Post
    Irregularities of heart rhythm, HEART PALPITATIONS, even on as low a dose as 10 mg
    Pregnenolone - honest info: by Ray Sahelian, M.D., Plus, Passion Rx libido booster
    I personally noticed this myself with pregnenalone just last night. I usually apply topical preg/dhea in the morning, but I decided to take it last night with my hcg maybe 2-3 hrs before bed. I noticed I couldn't fall asleep easily and felt my heart beating harder than usual at a resting state, and I am not taking any stimulants of any kind atm. Usually hcg doesn't effect me this way, I'm thinking it was the preg. I've read that hcg requires a healthy amount of dhea to work properly, this is why I decided to change my protocol, but I probably won't take the transdermal at night again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsHectic View Post
    Bump for an update.

    I would like to hear from TiredOldFart and cpeil2 as my hcg is ready to go but I am a little nervous as I already suffer enough anxiety as it is.

    I have stopped all hormone replacement except for taking a single 5 mg. timed-release cap of DHEA. Just about everything I have tried makes me feel lousy in one way or another. In spite of having pretty low hormone levels, for the most part, I feel better "off" than I do "on."
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    Genetics must attenuate how you react to HCG. HCG incontrovertibly has an anxiolytic effect on me, 100% of the time. However, the anxiolytic effect is less notable now than it was when HCG therapy was first introduced 4 years ago. The first time I used HCG was after roughly 3 years of androgen replacement therapy. During this time, I had complete suppression of endogenous lh and fsh.
  

  
 

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