How many here are doing their injects sub-q?
Have you experienced any benefit over IM?
What is the rationale behind it?
Have you experienced any benefit over IM?
What is the rationale behind it?
I think the Pro is that it's less painful since you're not going into a muscle.How many here are doing their injects sub-q?
Have you experienced any benefit over IM?
What is the rationale behind it?
I use subQ T shots.I think the Pro is that it's less painful since you're not going into a muscle.
I think dr John argued aginst subQ shots.Is it an "accepted" delivery method? (not the regular medical community, the anti-aging community)?
Dr j infered that 1/2 inch is not sub Q but IM ..I think dr John argued aginst subQ shots.
I do them any way,
and have blood test that show they are working.
I try to avoid pain if I can help it.
I make sure that my shots are subQ.Dr j infered that 1/2 inch is not sub Q but IM ..
I use my shoulders and quads..
I make sure that my shots are subQ.
I pinch the skin on my belly and insert the needle 45 deg sideways.
No questions, my shots are SubQ shots, needle does not touch the muscle.
Sometimes I am curious how it would feel if I went 90 deg inti tihg musscle, but no thanks for the pain.
Soon I will go to get flu shots.
My doc does it with (probably) with 30ga 1/2" long needle to deltoid muscle straight 90 deg, not a big deal either but why bother.
I trust Dr S and will go the sub q route when I ever so reluctantly start my routine. Would have started today, but there was no mail delivery today due to Columbus day. Seems stupid-the whole world works except the privileged few.I think dr John argued aginst subQ shots.
I do them any way,
and have blood test that show they are working.
I try to avoid pain if I can help it.
I just hope that when you start,I trust Dr S and will go the sub q route when I ever so reluctantly start my routine. Would have started today, but there was no mail delivery today due to Columbus day. Seems stupid-the whole world works except the privileged few.
I will be starting .6ml of 100mg T cyp (hope I have the terms right) and reducing my hcg to 300iu 2x/week as soon as the T is here. The first bottle should have been delivered today, but there is no mail today.I just hope that when you start,
you are going to do that full bore,
instead of wasting more time.
Make sure that you take you (averege) weekly dose using E3D schedule.I will be starting .6ml of 100mg T cyp (hope I have the terms right) and reducing my hcg to 300iu 2x/week as soon as the T is here. The first bottle should have been delivered today, but there is no mail today.
Taking external T is akin to admitting defeat- I was unable to successfully ID the source of the problem and repair it. Now I'll be dependent on external meds, the supply of which can be cut off through no fault of my own (Remember Hurricane Katrina?). At the age of 44 I am saddened to be dependent on medicine at so young an age, but my options are, regrettably, few and far between. I resent my body's failure and inability to conduct basic repairs. We really are a poorly designed species, aren't we?
Make sure that you take you (averege) weekly dose using E3D schedule.
What is your SHBG?
My last known SHBG=26
my new dose =38units=177.3mg/week
post #62
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-3.html
Your goal is
FreeT=300
================================
You say: "I will be starting .6ml of 100mg T cyp"
The higher the SHBG the more T you need.
Make sure that you use 200mg/ml Depo-testosterone.
But if you are forced to use the 100mg/mL kind, remember to double the volume.
================================
Agreed after my first 2 shots I havnt noticed pain sinceI wondered what to expect as far as pain goes as well, but through my first 3 IM shots I have felt absolutely no pain. The only "pain" I feel is when the needle initially breaks the skin. It doesnt hurt at all when going into the muscle and there is no soreness the next day for me.
By the way I'm using 25g, 1 inch needles into the quads.
To get FreeT~250-300My SHBG is quite low--around 12. Dr S wants me to start lower and work up as--and if-- needed. He is trying to keep as much of my testes working as is possible. We'll start at 6ml and work up after a 3 week blood test. He is of the opinion that my very low shbg allows for lower total and free levels. We'll see how it goes. Maybe I'll get lucky and start to feel a bit better. The weird part is that usually feel pretty good the later it gets. I am really irritable and even depressed in the earlyt morning, but get better as the day wears into evening.
My SHBG is quite low--around 12. Dr S wants me to start lower and work up as--and if-- needed. He is trying to keep as much of my testes working as is possible. We'll start at 6ml and work up after a 3 week blood test. He is of the opinion that my very low shbg allows for lower total and free levels. We'll see how it goes. Maybe I'll get lucky and start to feel a bit better. The weird part is that usually feel pretty good the later it gets. I am really irritable and even depressed in the earlyt morning, but get better as the day wears into evening.
Okay, so if one decides to go the IM route, you can inject solely in the quad? You can ignore the glutes?By the way I'm using 25g, 1 inch needles into the quads.
I plan on rotating the glutes in there as soon as I get some larger needles. If it is too difficult I will just do quads only.Okay, so if one decides to go the IM route, you can inject solely in the quad? You can ignore the glutes?
My worry is not about the injection; they don't bother me.
But the glute shot seems kind of tricky to do by yourself.
Any opinions?
I only do quads, its the only place I can see myself actually doing.Okay, so if one decides to go the IM route, you can inject solely in the quad? You can ignore the glutes?
My worry is not about the injection; they don't bother me.
But the glute shot seems kind of tricky to do by yourself.
Any opinions?
JanSz, you post on here a lot with a lot of useful info, but you never say how YOU are feeling with your TRT. So, I am curious, how is the routine you are on working for you?To get FreeT~250-300
With SHBG=12
you need
TotalT= 750-900
To get that TT you need
100-125 mg/week testosterone, best on E3D schedule.
That 0.6mL testosterone may do the job if you use
200mg/mL strenght.
Since your SHBG is real low, you may be better off using E2D schedule, every other day.
Assuming that you are going to be using 200mg/mL testosterone
you weekly dose =120mg/week
assuming E2D schedule,
each shot=0.6/7*2=0.17cc=17 units on syringe
at the same time do shots of hcg Novarel 250iu
consider your estrodial status
To arrive sooner at your average level of blood testosterone
first four days do T shots each day and then continue on E2D schedule.
Bottom line is blood test, T, E2 and DHT
do these tests at Quest, draw blood on day of the shot, time of the shot, before shot.
Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
Dihydrotestosterone, Free, Serum (36168X)
there is many many other tests that you should consider.
see my post #62
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-3.html
I am describing my Test and Liquidex dose adjusment based on above tests.
Looking at my chart, E2D schedule,
you should be rather well stabilized at 3 weeks after change of schedule.
Possibly there is no need to wait the usual 6 weeks.
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/404images/17620d1182261673-jans-bloodtest-april13-1000mg-week-tcypionate
Post #23 of
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13.html
Do not eat anything that is known to lower SHBG.
Estrogen Metabolism
To raise SHBG drink soy milk.
I am satisfied by my mostly self treating method.JanSz, you post on here a lot with a lot of useful info, but you never say how YOU are feeling with your TRT. So, I am curious, how is the routine you are on working for you?
i know one person showed labs after switching to subq and his e2 stayed the sameI recall reading in a number of places on another forum where he used to be at (not sure he ever addressed this topic over there), but he did specify one concern. And that concern dealt with a belief on his part that injecting T subQ would lead to an increase of Total Es and E2 as the aromatase factor is much more heavily present in fat cells than in muscle cells... and that therefore one could have a strong potential for excessive aromatizing of T into E if using subQ injections.
So... the study quoted above is great - except it does NOT address what happens with estrogen levels when the groups used IM injections versus subQ injections. I believe in a couple posts there that he pointed out that transdermal users usually have higher E levels as they are transferring the exogenous T directly into the dermal / fat layers below the skin and he believed that was due to the T in the fat cells converting more efficiently via aromatase into E...
For subQ users, have you ever specifically charted E levels (specific blood test results) from when you did T via IM injections versus doing it as subQ injections.
I currently inject IM (strictly quads - I draw with a 22-gauge 1 1/2" needle and then switch over to a 27 ga. 1 1/4" needle to inject - and only insert needle about 1"... I also find if I ice pack the injection area while I am setting everything up that when I go to actually inject it is totally painless).
SubQ injections could be slightly more convenient (I could drop the icing procedure - plus I already inject HcG subQ), but I do have lingering worries over estrogen increases due to aromatase via fat cells where you are injecting directly into.
Also for subQ users, do you draw from the vial directly with the subQ syringe & needle? And if so, doesn't that take quite a while with the thicker fluid of the T (as compared to HcG)? Or do you use another regular syringe to draw with and inject the T into the insulin type syringe?
I believe transdermals have a higher propensity to metabolize into DHT (not E2) because of the interaction with 5 alpha reductase in the skin, but the logic would be the same.I believe in a couple posts there that he pointed out that transdermal users usually have higher E levels as they are transferring the exogenous T directly into the dermal / fat layers below the skin and he believed that was due to the T in the fat cells converting more efficiently via aromatase into E...
I believe transdermals have a higher propensity to metabolize into DHT (not E2) because of the interaction with 5 alpha reductase in the skin, but the logic would be the same.
If you are injecting into where there's a lot of aromatase activity, maybe the expectation would be increased E2.
I wonder if those posts were about people applying the transdermals to their abdomens; I understand that we don't usually apply to areas where there is fat because of that concern.
And Dr. Crisler was very much set against it... and specifically for the reason of that aromatase activity being higher in the fat cells and that when you do Test via subQ that you are injecting into the fat cells - thereby causing (or at least creating a higher potential to cause) higher Total Es and higher E2.
I believe in the one post he said something along the effect of " ... so we don't inject Testosterone subQ as you're putting it into fat cells and that is where aromatase factor lives... " or something to that effect.
Interesting stuff, indeed. I hope someone does more studies.No, the threasd involved (and it was on more than one occasion - at MESO, I believe) was specifically about doing Test via subQ injection.
And Dr. Crisler was very much set against it... and specifically for the reason of that aromatase activity being higher in the fat cells and that when you do Test via subQ that you are injecting into the fat cells - thereby causing (or at least creating a higher potential to cause) higher Total Es and higher E2.
The threads were NOT about transdermals, just in the one thread Dr. Crisler used transdermals as at example as how you are in effect (if you have fatty application areas) inserting the Test into the fat layers where aromatase factor can be of greater impact...
I believe in the one post he said something along the effect of " ... so we don't inject Testosterone subQ as you're putting it into fat cells and that is where aromatase factor lives... " (or something to that effect.
I am not saying that this is what I believe 100% one way or the other - and still am waiting on some conclusive evidence in that regards. Just pointing out what I definitely recall from more than one posting of Dr. Crisler's.
:clean:
I too have heard of his opposition to sub q. But, Dr Shippen favors it. Why? What are the arguments on the other side of the fence?
Where exactly do you inject the quad?Easy route
28 gusge 1/2 inch in shoulder or leg. Dr j said it is IM not subcutaneous END OF STORY
outer meat of the muscle at 45 degree angle..Shoulders are so much easier !!Where exactly do you inject the quad?
Do you get the same effect in the shoulder?outer meat of the muscle at 45 degree angle..Shoulders are so much easier !!
Easy route
28 gusge 1/2 inch in shoulder or leg. Dr j said it is IM not subcutaneous END OF STORY
I am supposed to spk to him late next month. I'll see what he says. I do know that my specific instructions were sub q. For now, at least, and 1 1/2 weeks into T cyp, I feel no better. Still fatigued, tired, mildly depressed and irritated. The weird part is, it is always worse in the morning and gets better as the day wears into the evening. By 9-10 pm I feel pretty good! Wish I could make sense of this.There is THE $64,000.00 question.
Also, is there anyone on this forum who very specifically a patient of Dr. Shippen's and is on Test via subQ specifically per Dr. Shippen? I have heard lots of comments about how Dr. Shipen not only thinks subQ is "okay", but that it is "better"... yet when I try tracking it down it turns out that the poster "knew of someone" or had "heard about one of Shippen's patients" or etc., etc., etc.
Unfiortunatley Dr. Shippen is not open with his viewpoints to the extent that Dr. Crisler is. In fact, as far as I know he doesn't even have a web site! Nor publish openly (articles, online commentaries, etc.) what protocols he is using, looking into, etc., etc.
whats your dose?I am supposed to spk to him late next month. I'll see what he says. I do know that my specific instructions were sub q. For now, at least, and 1 1/2 weeks into T cyp, I feel no better. Still fatigued, tired, mildly depressed and irritated. The weird part is, it is always worse in the morning and gets better as the day wears into the evening. By 9-10 pm I feel pretty good! Wish I could make sense of this.
Intellectually I know this could take some time to kick in. Emotionally, I am tired of feeling, well, tired. What a stupid and pointless affliction. We really are a rather poorly designed species, aren't we?whats your dose?
def give it a month to kick in
If your shbg is low muiltiple injection will help raise it as it did mine and addin more fiber less fat to your diet diet more like 40 grams a day your shbg will go up. This is common fact..Intellectually I know this could take some time to kick in. Emotionally, I am tired of feeling, well, tired. What a stupid and pointless affliction. We really are a rather poorly designed species, aren't we?
:rant:Just Found this on another board:
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Saudi Med J. 2006 Dec;27(12):1843-6.
Subcutaneous administration of testosterone. A pilot study report.Al-Futaisi AM, Al-Zakwani IS, Almahrezi AM, Morris D.
Department of Medicine, College of Medicine & Health Sciences, PO Box 35, Postal Code 123, Al-Khod, Sultanate of Oman. Tel. +968 99475401. Tel/Fax. +968 24413419. E-mail: [email protected].
OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effect of low doses of subcutaneous testosterone in hypogonadal men since the intramuscular route, which is the most widely used form of testosterone replacement therapy, is inconvenient to many patients. METHODS: All men with primary and secondary hypogonadism attending the reproductive endocrine clinic at Royal Victoria Hospital, Monteral, Quebec, Canada, were invited to participate in the study. Subjects were enrolled from January 2002 till December 2002. Patients were asked to self-administer weekly low doses of testosterone enanthate using 0.5 ml insulin syringe. RESULTS: A total of 22 patients were enrolled in the study. The mean trough was 14.48 +/- 3.14 nmol/L and peak total testosterone was 21.65 +/- 7.32 nmol/L. For the free testosterone the average trough was 59.94 +/- 20.60 pmol/L and the peak was 85.17 +/- 32.88 pmol/L. All of the patients delivered testosterone with ease and no local reactions were reported. CONCLUSION: Therapy with weekly subcutaneous testosterone produced serum levels that were within the normal range in 100% of patients for both peak and trough levels. This is the first report, which demonstrated the efficacy of delivering weekly testosterone using this cheap, safe, and less painful subcutaneous route.PMID: 17143361 [PubMed - in process]