TRT / Thyroid
- 10-08-2007, 11:50 AM
TRT / Thyroid
Curious, I have read posts from Marianco longtime ago... that TRT can have different effects on Thyroid homone for different people. For various reasons in some ... it can increase activity and in others reduce Thyroid activity.
Given I was tested twice pre-TRT and TSH was slightly high (given new lower limit of upper range) and Free T4 was in the lower 20% of range, shouldn't I have Thyroid tested post-TRT? and include Free T3?
I was surprised that Dr. John didn't request it only 24-Hour Urine.
Anyone experience Thyroid issues that were magnified by TRT?
- 10-08-2007, 12:35 PM
My self, I just keep on testing and making (small) adjustments.
I stopped testing TSH.
My (short) test (paid by insurance):
I e-mail this list (including ICD-9 codes) to my docs nurse,
she prints it on the office stationary
doc signs it,
I come to the office to pick it up,
if I see doc I say hi,
usually I just pick the scrip from a nurse, without seeing doc.
C-reactive protein CRP
Lipoprotein (A) Lp(A)
Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
Estrogens, Fractionated, LC/MS/MS (36742X)
Estrogen, Total, Serum (439X)
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
Dihydrotestosterone, Free, Serum (36168X)
- 10-09-2007, 11:26 AM
10-09-2007, 11:39 AM
Last year, while on finasteride with a total test value of 440. My TSH was 3.2 at that point.
I had TSH (among other things) rechecked a couple of months ago (before beginning TRT) and it was 0.72.
Last week, post androgel therapy for 2 weeks, TSH was 3.14. I did not have free/total T3/T4 values rechecked. FWIW.
10-09-2007, 11:53 AM
With TSH changing like this I would If I were you have this tested. You can have a very low TSH during a one time lab test, yet have an untested high TSH a few days later. That fluctuation is indicative of Hashimoto’s or an attack of the thyroid, causing swings between hypo and hyper.
So do test this it will save you much suffering if caught early and treated do this test.
Thyroid Antibodies (anti-TPO and TgAb. YOU NEED BOTH.)
Ask for a test with the range no Less then numbers like this <20 you need the actuarial number.
10-09-2007, 03:31 PM
10-09-2007, 05:15 PM
In the past I had exterme and different values from tests done few days apart.
I test only
and attempt adjusting both to the top of their respective ranges.
After last blood test I changed tactic.
I will attempt to use less Armour and give first priority to Levothyroxin (T4)
T3 half life hours
T4 half life days
If I am able to convert some (if not most) T4--->T3
I should be more stable thyroid-vise.
10-10-2007, 09:52 AM
Looking for a little advice per my last thyroid bt.
taking 2g armour
100mg test e3d
TSA 1.276mIU/mL (RANGE 0.134-5.60)
Free T4 0.7ng/dL (range 0.6-1.1)
T4 Total 4.3ug/dL (low) (range 4.5-10.9)
T3 Total 106ng/dL (range60-181)
Note - Would love to get it optimum to help aid in loosing a couple pounds.
10-10-2007, 10:47 AM
What is the optimal levels for t3 and free t4. I switched from levoxil to armour 3 months ago but........... I was on generic thyroid not name brand armour until last month. I had heard that generic thyroid isnt consitant in dosing.
I thought I would have some side effects of being low when I got the results back but I dont. Actually I dont know what the side effects are for ea. t3 or free t4.
Do you have any info/links that are recommend for iodral/lugols iodine, otherwise I will just google it.
What bloodtests would help with checking why my free t4 is low
10-10-2007, 01:44 PM
10-10-2007, 02:23 PM
I test only
My goal is to have both of them at the top range.
I was using Armour at first.
After my last test I changed strategy.
I give priority to T4 supplementation and then use Armour to fill in the missing FreeT3.
T3-->half life hours
If my body is able to convert T4-->T3 , even if it is not full required conversion, the more I can use of T4 the more stable I should be.
I try to stay at one brand of medicine to minimize variables.
10-10-2007, 02:29 PM
10-10-2007, 03:20 PM
10-10-2007, 03:21 PM
but it looks as though nobody has had your problem here.
10-11-2007, 11:25 AM
I'm just gonna have to get retested. I have had Thyroid (TSH and Free T4) run on 2 occasions pre-TRT.
In panel 1... T was higher,TSH was higher and Free T4 was lower
In panel 2.... T was lower, TSH was lower and T4 was higher.
I understand T can have positive or negative effects on T levels depending on an individuals entire hormonal situation. No one answer. This learning came from Marianco from several different posts. The following 1 was his reply to someone who asked if HCG can cause anxiety.
As usual his response was very thorough and provides more answers than a simple yes or no.... I'm sure we are all learning that there is no "all situations" in hormone management... Marianco's post.....
I can't give you advice since you are not a patient.
However, I can give educational information about HCG (Chorionic Gonadotropin).
The issue of HCG and panic attacks is much more complex than what appears on the surface.
A partial account of the metabolic cascades involved is as follows:
HCG acts like LH (Luteinizing Hormone).
LH has several actions, such as:
1. It stimulates testosterone production from the testes
2. It stimulates the production of aromatase enzyme
3. It stimulates the production of Cytochrome P450sc enzyme
Testosterone has several actions, such as:
1. Increasing dopamine production in the brain.
2. Increasing OR Decreasing Thyroid hormone production.
3. Reducing ACTH production.
4. Directly reducing Adrenal hormone production.
5. Becomes Estradiol via Aromatase enzyme.
6. Becomes DHT (Dyhydrotestosterone) via 5-Alpha-Reductase enzyme
7. Promotes insulin sensitivity.
8. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions.
9. Excessive Testosterone can result in an increase in anxiety depending on the metabolic cascades involved.
1. Turns Testosterone into Estradiol
Cytochrome P450sc enzyme:
1. Turns Cholesterol into Pregnenolone
Estradiol (and other estrogens) has multiple actions, including:
1. Acting as a Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitor in the brain
2. Reducing thyroid hormone activity by increasing production of Thyroid Binding Globulin from the liver.
Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors (such as Estradiol) to varying extents:
1. Increase Serotonin levels
2. Increase Norepinephrine levels
3. Increase Dopamine levels
1. Reduces the perception of stress - thus has an antianxiety effect.
2. Reduces norepinephrine production from norepinephrine neurons - contributing to its antianxiety effect.
3. Reduces dopamine production from dopamine neurons - if reduced excessively, this can increase anxiety
4. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions
1. Is the primary signal for stress
2. Excessive Norepinephrine can result in anxiety or irritability/anger.
3. Has inflammatory signaling functions.
4. Can increase energy by promoting adrenal hormone production - if the adrenal glands are not fatigued excessively
1. Promotes a sense of well-being, calmness
2. Deficiency in Dopamine production can cause agitation or anxiety, etc.
1. Promotes energy production, such as by increasing mitochondria production and thermogenesis.
2. Promotes steroid hormone production - increasing testosterone production - thus lowering thyroid hormone can reduce testosterone production.
3. Promotes IGF-1 production - which does most of the actions of growth hormone
4. Increases serotonine production
5. Promotes insulin sensitivity
6. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions
7. Deficiency in Thyroid hormone can result in anxiety or irritability/anger
Growth hormone/IGF-1 hormone:
1. Can promote a sense of calm and well-being - deficiency of which can result in a higher level of anxiety.
2. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions.
Adrenal Hormone production, includes:
6. Adrenal cortex hormone production - particularly Cortisol - promotes energy production
1. Promotes energy - via gluconeogenesis, etc.
2. Feeds back to the brain to reduce Norepinephrine production - resulting in reduction in anxiety.
3. Deficiency in Cortisol production can result in anxiety
1. Increases Dopamine production in the brain
2. Promotes insulin sensitivity
4. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions
5. Deficiency of DHEA can result in anxiety.
1. Has a stimulant effect.
2. Excessive Pregnenolone production can result in agitation, tension, or anxiety.
1. Has a calming, mood-stabilizing effect.
2. Deficiency in Progesterone can result in agitation, tension, or anxiety.
3. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions.
1. Excess insulin can reduce testosterone production.
2. Has pro-inflammatory signaling functions.
3. etc. etc. etc.
1. Deficient antiinflammatory signaling may promote anxiety
2. etc. etc.
1. Certain nutrients are necessary to promote function across the nervous system, endocrine system, and immune system.
2. Deficiency of certain nutrients can promote anxiety in response to HCG as a result of dysfunction in these systems.
Thus, when HCG causes anxiety, the story is actually more complex than just the resulting increase in Estradiol.
1. If HCG increases Testosterone excessively, it can cause a cascade that results in anxiety - e.g. by decreasing thyroid function, decreasing adrenal hormone production, etc - particularly if a person is predisposed to anxiety such as by having hypothyroidism and adrenal fatigue.
2. If HCG increases Estradiol, it can cause a cascade that results in anxiety IF (a big if), Estradiol increases norepinephrine more than serotonin and dopamine, or if it results in significant thyroid hormone reduction (particularly if a person is hypothyroid and has adrenal fatigue).
3. etc. etc. etc.
The solution would involve examining all the involved systems and chemical messengers (neurotransmitters, hormones, etc) rather than just knee-jerk blaming only estrogen and attempting to reduce estrogen levels. The solution involves addressing the problems that are actually present (e.g. hypothyroidism, adrenal fatigue, excessive insulin, etc.) to reduce the risk of anxiety with HCG particularly when one wants to use HCG to preserve testicular size or to use HCG as a replacement for testosterone replacement therapy.
Reducing estrogen levels blindly can increase the risk of multiple problems including anxiety itself - such as when estradiol more strongly increases serotonin than norepinephrine in a person.
Lab tests and an exam would be necessary to help determine where the problem lies. Then solving the problem would not involve so much trial-and-error and guesswork.
Yes, HCG can cause panic attacks in susceptible persons depending on the functioning of the nervous system, endocrine system, and immune system - the sum of which I call 'the mind".
10-11-2007, 11:36 AM
10-11-2007, 11:57 AM
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