WTF?! New Labs; Interesting Findings

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    WTF?! New Labs; Interesting Findings


    Labs drawn on 8/27, pre TRT:

    TEST, TOTAL.....342.....(400 - 1080 ng/dL) LOW

    TEST, FREE.....75.0.....(47 - 244 pg/mL)

    DHT.....565.6.....(155 - 553 pg/mL) HIGH

    ESTRADIOL.....35.....(0 - 52 pg/mL)

    TSH.....1.71....(0.35 - 5.50 uIU/mL)

    -----------------------------------------------------
    -----------------------------------------------------

    Labs drawn on 9/28, after 15 days treatment with 5 grams 1% Androgel:

    TEST, TOTAL.....312.....(400 - 1080 ng/dL) *lower than before?

    TEST, FREE.....73.0.....(47 - 244 pg/mL) *lower than before?

    DHT.....725.7.....(155 - 553 pg/mL) *higher

    ESTRADIOL.....12.....(0 - 52 pg/mL) *way lower

    TSH.....3.03....(0.35 - 5.50 uIU/mL)

    ------------------------------------------------------
    ------------------------------------------------------

    I understand the increase in DHT (and I guess the lowered E2 which it might have supressed, though I'm also taking ZMA now),
    but I don't get the lower test and free test.

    I have only been on TRT for the two weeks, could I be that HPT supressed already?

    I am increasing titration.

    Any thoughts?

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    Same thing happened to me as far as the test readings go. I started at 177 and after 5 weeks on Testim 1% ended at 117. So I assume it is HPTA shutdown and to answer your question, I felt my symptoms worsen in week 2 on the gel, so it does happen pretty quickly.

    Your TSH also made a pretty big jump. Pay attention to that on future labs. Mine was pretty erratic going from 7.7 to 6.1 to 2.5 to 3.5, without any kind of medication. Once it got to normal range the doc decided it was fine to stop testing it. But the way it was jumping was worrying me so I finally got through to my endo to test it again, still awaiting results and this time I finally got free T3 and free T4 along with it. I dont think it's normal to have those kind of swings, not to mention the AACE has changed the normal range to a narrower limit (I believe upper limit is now 3.3) so in that case, your new labs would indicate abnormal thyroid function. Keep an eye on it.
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    your natural production dropped of big time because of the gel

    im not a fan of gels. your gonna need to at least double your dose. but a lot of it is converting to dht, so im not so sure gels is the best option for you. ask for injections, i prefer them

    your e2 lowered because so much of the gel is converting to dht, and the dht is driving e2 lower
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    Labs drawn on 8/27, pre TRT:

    TEST, TOTAL.....342.....(400 - 1080 ng/dL) LOW

    TEST, FREE.....75.0.....(47 - 244 pg/mL)

    DHT.....565.6.....(155 - 553 pg/mL) HIGH

    ESTRADIOL.....35.....(0 - 52 pg/mL)

    TSH.....1.71....(0.35 - 5.50 uIU/mL)

    -----------------------------------------------------
    -----------------------------------------------------

    Labs drawn on 9/28, after 15 days treatment with 5 grams 1% Androgel:

    TEST, TOTAL.....312.....(400 - 1080 ng/dL) *lower than before?

    TEST, FREE.....73.0.....(47 - 244 pg/mL) *lower than before?

    DHT.....725.7.....(155 - 553 pg/mL) *higher

    ESTRADIOL.....12.....(0 - 52 pg/mL) *way lower

    TSH.....3.03....(0.35 - 5.50 uIU/mL)

    ------------------------------------------------------
    ------------------------------------------------------

    I understand the increase in DHT (and I guess the lowered E2 which it might have supressed, though I'm also taking ZMA now),
    but I don't get the lower test and free test.

    I have only been on TRT for the two weeks, could I be that HPT supressed already?

    I am increasing titration.

    Any thoughts?
    Better do not even look at DHT if you are using transdermals.
    Just buy to kakamany (spelling?) story that high DHT is good for you.

    Only people who need to use transdermals are those with low DHT
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    Yep, I am going to have to switch to injections.

    I have a three month supply of a new higher strength compounded coming, I will have to finish that which will give me time enough to go see Dr. John. I don't know any other legal way to get shots and I only go legal.

    My PCP said any shots would have to be administered in his office.

    I do feel better, though. I wonder if it's the increased DHT + better test/E2 ratio.

    I can't imagine how well I could do with the shots.

    I am also using pregnenolone cream now so I wonder how that will affect DHT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Only people who need to use transdermals are those with low DHT
    I disagree.
    I am forced to use transdermals because injections cause erythrocytosis whereas tdermals not as much.
    I would prefer the injections but cant becuase HCT and RBC elevation to unsafe levels (even at 100mg/wk)

    I find that this is not brought up in this forum very strange because from what I read more than 40% of people on HRT have this problem. Am I the only one?
    MH
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECTOmorph View Post

    your e2 lowered because so much of the gel is converting to dht, and the dht is driving e2 lower
    I wonder if this is why I feel better despite T being lower. DHT doing its work?

    Wonder what that would feel like in the presence of higher T.

    Morning wood (soo forgot what that was) is back and my endurance has increased.

    I'm hoping the preg will control DHT.
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    rick... are you a former Finasteride user?
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    .....but I don't get the lower test and free test. I have only been on TRT for the two weeks, could I be that HPT supressed already?
    Your T results seem to be pretty common. I tested after 20 days. I was also told that test time relative to application will effect results early in the gel useage. At 30 days of applcation, your daily T level max's about 2 hrs after application, then drops at 4hrs. - this spike flatens somewhat over time, less of a spike. Look at the androgel literature, they have a graph. When you look at the 90 day chart - it flattens., with less of a spike and less of a drop. Clipped Chart is attached

    When I started on 1ml of 5%, I felt nothing for 10 days, then the next 10 days I felt great. After day 20, I was back to feeling close to pre-treatment levels.

    My bloodwork after being on 1ml of 5% for 40 days indicated same.

    PreTreatment -> Post Treatment (range)
    T 434 -> 303 (250-100) lower!
    FreeT 37.3 -> 35.2 (46-234) lower!
    BioT 93.9 -> 70.9 (110-575) lower!

    The oly thing that improved was my SHGB and Albumin - which was out of range before starting, they came back into range. (SHG on the high end of the range, ALbumin to midpoint).

    I was told my production shut down. Advised not to start hcg until I get T where is needs to be. So on to 2ml of 5%.

    After 40 days of 2ml of 5%
    t=586 (still in lower half of range, but higher than pretreat)
    FreeT 70.1 (alot higher than pretreatment - but still low in range)
    BioT 135 ( finally in range, but just barely)

    Now trying 2ml of 10%. No labs to support this yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by muslhead View Post
    I disagree.
    I am forced to use transdermals because injections cause erythrocytosis whereas tdermals not as much.
    I would prefer the injections but cant becuase HCT and RBC elevation to unsafe levels (even at 100mg/wk)

    I find that this is not brought up in this forum very strange because from what I read more than 40% of people on HRT have this problem. Am I the only one?
    MH
    The usual way to deal with high Hematocrit is to let the blood out periodically.
    On transdermals one have a high chance of getting sky high DHT.
    Also many people have no chance of getting their TT levels high enough due to skin condition.
    I am not even bringin up the QOL issues while on transdermals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by madclown View Post
    rick... are you a former Finasteride user?

    In a manner of speaking, yes.

    I was on it for a month in January 1999, one month in March 2001, two weeks in November '06, two weeks this past summer.

    I heard it had a really long half-life. lol

    But seriously, when I took it in 99, I got a testicular "ache" which scared me, same in '01.

    November '06 I tried 1.25 EOD with the same result and this summer I tried .50 EOD and just said to hell with it.

    It may be irrational and I know there are people who have great results with no sides, but I don't like the drug.

    Why do you ask?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    The usual way to deal with high Hematocrit is to let the blood out periodically.
    On transdermals one have a high chance of getting sky high DHT.
    Also many people have no chance of getting their TT levels high enough due to skin condition.
    I am not even bringin up the QOL issues while on transdermals.
    I was just going to mention that jansz i bet your DHT are off the rocker and e2 is in the toilet so to speak ..
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnotherOldGuy View Post

    When I started on 1ml of 5%, I felt nothing for 10 days, then the next 10 days I felt great. After day 20, I was back to feeling close to pre-treatment levels.
    Pretty much the same. Nothing for a few days, felt like superman for a few days, felt normal, felt better again, increased to 7.5 on my own, felt better again.

    I went down and up again even before increasing to 7.5.

    I do feel pretty good, too. Not great yet, but better, in the face of lower T, which surprises me. Again libido is a little better, work stamina is better and sleep is better.

    I wonder if it's the change in T:E ratio or the increased - androgenic - DHT.

    I am planning (and saving) to see Dr. Crisler, I may just switch to shots. But I am going to give a compounded PLO gel a trial along with some pregnenolone to see if there's a difference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    The usual way to deal with high Hematocrit is to let the blood out periodically.
    On transdermals one have a high chance of getting sky high DHT.
    Also many people have no chance of getting their TT levels high enough due to skin condition.
    I am not even bringin up the QOL issues while on transdermals.
    Jan
    Unfortunately donating blood regularly (every 2 months) doesnt keep RBC and HCT in check.
    Have you found most people have QOL issues when using transdermals? If so, why do you think that is?
    MH
  

  
 

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