23 year old male - why is my DHEA-S so low?
- 09-26-2007, 06:01 PM
23 year old male - why is my DHEA-S so low?
Hi guys, im a 23 year old male, and i was feeling really tired and depressed all the time, getting frequent colds, especially after physical activity, i gained a little bit of fat on my lower abs for no reason which i never had before, my face was puffy and round, and i had dark rings under my eye's, and the veins under my eye's were more pronounced.
So i went to my Doctor in June, and had normal bloodwork done, and everything came back normal except my white blood cell count was a bit below normal range.
3.5 Ref 4.0 - 11.0
My TSH was 1.24 Ref 0.35 - 5.00
On August 15th, i had the following blood tests done:
Free Testosterone = 53.6 Ref 31 - 94
FSH = 3 Ref 2 - 8
LH = 3 Ref 2 - 6
DHEA-S = 2.8 Ref 7.6 - 17.4 LOW
On September 18th, i had the following tests done:
DHEA-S = 3.6 Ref 7.6 - 17.4 LOW
Cortisol 24 Hour Urine Test = 132 Ref 27 - 180
Is this too high for Cortisol?
My Doctor doesnt know why my DHEA-S was so low on 2 different blood tests a month apart, so i have an appointment to see an Endo on Nov 30th, over 2 months from now!
I was on Finesteride for over 1 year, and switched to Dutasteride and was on and off it for almost 1 year. I took my last Dutasteride pill in May, and at the same time started taking these fat loss stimulants for energy, along with heavy cardio and weight training,ect. While on Dutasteride ive also been taking an aromatize inhibitor called AIMF " topical ATD ", and i use 1 pump now daily ( low dose ).
I got really bad anxiety and jitters from the stims that would last the whole day, and i had insomnia at night. In the morning i had absolutely no energy, and had to take more stimulants just so i would have enough energy to carry out my day.
I think i got adrenal fatigue because of this, due to the stimulants, but could the Dutasteride have been a culprit?
Can anybody help me out please on what might be wrong with me? I would really appreciate it. I looks like adrenal fatigue, but i have symptoms of hypothyroid because of my puffy face, which is even worse when i wake up. Ive gained a little bit of fat on my lower abs, but it looks like ive also gained a bit of muscle also. Ive always been lean and muscular naturally with a low bodyfat percentage, without training or dieting.
Thanks in advance.
- 09-26-2007, 07:33 PM
09-26-2007, 08:12 PM
Hey plymouth city,
I used topical ATD because i was using Dutasteride by itself at the start, and was noticing some estrogen related sides, this was last year.
And even if i didnt get any sides, when inhibiting DHT, i think its a good idea to use a low dose aromatize inhibitor, because DHT is an estrogen antagonist, and without it problems may occur.
I still take low dose 1 pump because if anything i feel its healthy to have a little less estradiol, and more testosterone.
So im not taking any stimulants at all, and have been using Dermacrine, and Reset A.D. for 5 days or so aswell.
I do have better energy, but my face is still puffy, still have the dark circles under my eye's, still have that extra bit of fat on my lower abs, and my recovery time isnt normal yet,ect.
So you think its adrenal burnout? Could this cause thyroid problems? My doctor wouldnt do a free T4 and T3 test because my TSH was normal. I live in Canada btw.
Do you think Dutasteride could have been a factor?
My cortisol level seems semi high normal, should i take something like X-Lean to lower Cortisol?
Thanks for your help!
09-26-2007, 08:18 PM
Low DHEA is usually a sign of adrenal fatigue, but could also be from just having low androgenic hormones in general.
Dermacrine is a great product.
I would dump the topical ATD product for a more healthy AI, such as resveratrol(which is already in demracrine)
Im not familiar with reset AD whats in it?
The DHEA in Derm will fix any cortisol problems you have.
You should get a full BW panel done, which includes FT3 and FT4
09-26-2007, 08:38 PM
Thanks for your help plymouth city, i appreciate it.
Dermacrine is a great product, but i dont beleive it does anything for estradiol, only estrone, as shown on the blood test results on the primordialperformance website.
A weird thing i notice, when i was on Dutasteride and even Finesteride with no ATD, i would get this weird pain in the side on my right hip muscle, and the same thing happened when i started Dermacrine with no ATD. When i added ATD back in, that pain went away. I dont know what the connection is, but i think when estradiol is higher, i get that weird pain in the same spot sometimes, mabye its not even related. When im not taking anything i dont get the pain, but when i take something that can potentially increase estradiol, i get the pain sometimes when i dont use ATD. I do do a physical job, so its not like it hurt for no reason, but i found this weird.
Reset AD is to repair adrenal fatigue,ect.
Per 1 Capsule:
Panothanic Acid 500 mg
Bovine Adrenal Tissue 175 mg
Schizandra 100 mg
Licorice Root 50 mg
Pregnenolone 25 mg
Im going to finish off the Dermacrine, and my Doctor said that once im finished it, he wants to test my DHEA-S levels again to see if it helped 3 weeks from now, and he wants me to take no supplements 1 month before i see my Endo, as he might want to run some blood tests of his own, and me taking anything would mess up the results. I think i'll run the Dermacrine Sustain after though for PCT, as i dont think this would interfere with anything like DHEA-S,ect.
If Dermacrine elevated my DHEA-S levels, would i have to keep taking it to maintain those levels, or would they drop back down to what they are now?
I want to fix the root of the problem so that my body produces normal levels of DHEA-S on its own again.
How does one go about fixing adrenal fatigue?
Also, when you say full BW panel done, what hormones,ect, does that include exactly? What should i get tested?
Thanks a lot!
09-26-2007, 08:47 PM
Anything that lowers estrone will lower estradiol, and vice versa
You can't keep taking Derm, it needs to be cycled with as much on time as off. It is likely your DHEA levels will remain elevated during the off time.
Reset AD? Hmmmmm. Doesn't look like anything special to me. Oral Pregnenolone? Heheheh, you have GOT to be kidding me. Anyone who knows anything knows pregnenolone isn't absorbed well in oral form. Your getting it in derm, thankfully.
I am NOT a fan of ATD. From Cy Wilson at t-nation
"Likely limited by first-pass metabolism, and again something which it seems these companies which keep coming out with these products are forgetting, is that these steroidal aromatase inhibitors have two major drawbacks which is why you saw the shift in the pharmaceutical industry towards non-steroidal aromatase inhibitors, and those drawbacks are related to both lack of selectivity and in the case of someone who is using it post cycle in the hopes for increased recovery, these steroids, this one in particular, are androgenic. You can look in to the literature and find relatively easily, studies regarding this. One concluded that it may be an androgen antagonist, another concluding a likely metabolite binds to the AR acting as an agonist. Obviously, neither of these are what you want. Also, if it works as well in humans as it did in animal models, you could also expect a decrease in HDL.
If you're going to use an aromatase inhibitor, you're much better off using anastrozole. "
09-26-2007, 09:17 PM
What about Aromasin? From what ive read is seems the easiest on your body and the least side effects.
Also, what would you recommend for my situation where adrenal fatigue is suspected? Just Dermacrine?
What do you think about using these two product in combination?
Also, what hormones should i get tested for besides free T3 and T4?
09-26-2007, 09:29 PM
09-28-2007, 09:23 PM
So is it possible Dutasteride could have caused Adrenal Fatigue?
Or was is the stimulants?
I really didnt take the stims for months, i didnt even finish a full bottle.
How the hell could my adrenals have gotton fatigued so fast, and how come they didnt heal on their own when i stopped the stims?
This crap worries me.
10-01-2007, 12:07 AM
I read in another thread you said something about low E2 can put stress on the thyroid, and accelerate convertion of T4 to T3, stressing the crap out of the adrenals.
Is this correct?
I have adrenal fatigue, as i got my DHEA-S tested twice 1 month apart and both time were very below normal range.
But 24 hour urine Cortisol test showed Cortisol was normal, a little on the high middle side, but still normal range.
The only things that i took before i got adrenal fatigue and noticed i have absolutely no energy, was Dutasteride, fat loss stimulants than gave me really bad anxiety and jitters, and ATD, which is a really potent E2 inhibitor.
Do you think that i possibly lowered my E2 too low, and that contributed to my Adrenal Fatigue and very low DHEA-S?
Dutasteride is supposed to lower DHT by around 90%, and increase testosterone and estradiol by around 20%.
Is it possible that the increase in testosterone from Dutasteride could actually lower my E2?
I noticed that on Dutasteride i was fatigued and tired all the time, and i thought that might have been because of estrogen getting too high, so i added ATD, and it didnt help with my puffy face or fatigue, and i think i felt even worse and more tired. I dont understand it.
Now i read that high estrogen can impair thyroid function, the utilization of T3, and i also read that high androgens can also impair thyroid function.
So low E2 cant slow down your thyroid right?
Im thinking that Dutasteride and ATD raised my androgens a lot, possibly slowing down my thyroid, thus causing my puffy face and fatigue, since i lowered my E2 WAY low with ATD, and it didnt help at all with these sides.
What do you think?
10-01-2007, 03:01 AM
Relora has been shown to increase DHEA levels 224% and decrease cortisol levels by 37% (morning levels) after 2 weeks of continuous use at 250mg/3 times per day. Relora is great for promoting HEALTHY hormone levels of Cortisol and DHEA.
Freedom means nothing here.
10-01-2007, 09:07 AM
Spell out all the medicines, stimulants and supplements and anything else that you are taking or have been taking and for how long.
Spell your problems.
Finasteride/duosteride/Proscar/Avodart are bad news for small %% of men. Hopefully you are not one of them. I took both for long time, my changes were reveseable.
DHEA, take enough DHEA pills until you test 100-120% of your top range. I was taking 350mg/day and was still not over the top range, added prescription compounded pregnenolone cream, DHEAs shoot up 3x over the range. (DHEAs may not be the only problem thay you have).
At some time (best now) you may want to consider thorough testing, blood/urine.
I do once yearly blood testing as per post #44
Jan's BloodTest April13/2007
Shorter tests in between.
Do not take finasteride/duosteride, aromatase inhibitors (or basically anything else) with out proper testing. Test for the need first, test for dose adjustment latter.
Dark rings under eyes, vitamin/mineral deficiencies.
Consider GDX - Metabolic Analysis Profile, listed on my post#44
For your Nov appointment with endo:
#1. study this board, learn as much as you can, do not raise your hopes for endo finding your problem, be in position to give him suggestions.
#2 be "clean" of supplements or additives, finasteride and other meds for at least 6 weeks before blood draw for any testing. If cant comply to that, at least be on steady schedule for 6 weeks.
#3, many here have a more luck with ostheopaths rather than endos.
#4, take medicine or supplements based on tests, do not do it just based on hunch or multi-step hypothesis (that is usually off the wall). Latter on test twice before adjusting medicines once.
10-14-2007, 02:34 PM
Thanks guys, the only tests i have had were the ones i posted. I provided all mt info and history in my first post.
I just finished a 3 week run with Dermacrine, to try to raise my DHEA-S levels, but i dont really feel any better, i am still holding like 10 pounds of water, my face is still bloated, and everytime i do a full days work, doing outside physical work, i get home and feel like absolute crap. My eye's burn, my head feels stuffy, and i get a cold. I do this type of work outside every Saturday, and everyweek since i started, for over 4 weeks staight this has happened every time.
What the hell is this? I know i have low DHEA, but is this increased or decreased Cortisol causing me to get sick after i full days work of physical labour?
My 24 hour urine Cortisol test i did last month showed normal levels:
DHEA-S = 3.6 Ref 7.6 - 17.4 LOW
Cortisol 24 Hour Urine Test = 132 Ref 27 - 180
I just had more tests done last week, and should have the results next week.
I got DHEA-S tested again, DHT, and Estradiol.
Should i try 400mg of Life Extention DHEA?
I want to know why my body isnt going back to normal, how can i repair my actual adrenals?
Im going to order some Relora.
Can anybody help me out PLEASE?
10-14-2007, 05:41 PM
Sub'd on this thread. Superone I'm in the same boat as you right now. I'm likely going to see a Quest Diagnostic center here in NY to see what else can be affecting my low DHEA. Right now I'm almost positive it's just my low cholesterol diet and a case of adrenal fatigue.
10-15-2007, 07:46 PM
10-15-2007, 10:08 PM
10-15-2007, 10:16 PM
Name, number, units, range, name of laboratory.
other than supplementing with DHEA you want to get script for compounded pregnenolone cream 100mg/1mg.
Get it from womensinternational
I use LEF
Dhea Complete, 2pills/day
DHEA 100mg, 1pill/day
10-16-2007, 12:41 AM
Thanks JanSz, will get the results next week and post them.
Did you mean pregnenolone cream 100mg/1gram?
How long would this last me and how much does it cost? I would need my doctor to write me a prescription and fax it in right?
Also, do you get any estrogenic sides from taking the LEF DHEA and DHEA Complete?
10-16-2007, 02:40 AM
I'm taking 1200mg Relora per day, with 1000mg Sensoril (Life Extension product), and 2000 mg of Schizandra. Sensoril is just a REALLY good patented extract of Ashwaganda.
Relora doesn't always work for everyone at the recommended dose of 250mg, 3 times per day, but it did for me and I found it better at the dose I'm at now. I get about 1,200mg from the Retain 2 double dose that I'm using and then when I finish I will just take 500mg, 3 times per day and stick with that indefinitely.
After being on Relora for 3 months now, my personality has changed almost completely. I have also been taking a lot of anti-oxidants for good, natural energy since I started Relora as well, but the mood enhancing effects are all Relora. I used to get stressed out extremely easily and have mild/moderate anxiety. People say that I seem to be the most care-free, laid back guy they know. Relora doesn't zap my energy, it just takes the edge off... completely for me. I don't stress a damn thing. I really don't anymore.
Current supplements as of 3 weeks ago:
ZMK mineral formula
Drive (3 caps/2x a day)
RPM (1 caps/2x a day)
Poseidon and Swell
Retain 2 (mostly for the Relora, almost done soon)
Sensoril (patented Ashwaganda extract)
Finishing up Dermacrine Sustain
I have Goji Juice, Acai (however you spell it), and Mangosteen Juice that I have a few servings of every day and I take 1 pack of Rainbow Lightning antioxidants mid-day. I will be adding AI's Post Cycle Support and additional resveratrol in a couple weeks though.
One thing I do like from USP Labs is Super Cissus. I may or may not use it again...
Freedom means nothing here.
10-16-2007, 05:38 AM
10-16-2007, 09:56 AM
Cost #32 for 60grams=1 month supply +shipping cost
I ordered all refills at one time to save on shipping cost.
Doctors office call them, you will get product plus bill home.
I paid with credit card.
Hard to say what affects what.
I just test my FreeE2 and E2 and make Liqidex adjustments as required.
See my post #62
for my lattest adjustments after I got test results on my Aug30/07 blood draw.
I am quite excited with the FreeE2 test.
Hopefully is more informative that good old ultra-sensitive E2.
10-16-2007, 03:50 PM
I noticed you're finishing Dermacrine Sustain. Did you like it? What were your thoughts of it? I'm thinking of going with Dermacrine for 2-4 weeks and then onto using some Sustain myself. I think giving myself an initial boost of transdermal pregnenalone + dhea and then transitioning onto the Sustain + Relora, etc for long-term use might be good in my case. Just pondering how long I should apply the Dermacrine for...I don't want it to become too suppressive, but if it will kickstart normal hormonal levels within range or on the higher end of the normal range, then I will be all the more happier.
I've also ordered Post Cycle Support + Diesel Test Hardcore (not to be used during dermacrine or sustain use though). May sound funny, but I've even considered using Dermacrine in an eod method, while using DTH on off days. Going to look into some of the other supps in that stack you've formed as well. Also still pondering the use of HCG...
02-25-2008, 01:19 PM
Adrenal Fatigue/ Need Dhea ??
I have serious adrenal fatigue issues.
Last 3 weeks cant get out of bed.
It all started after finasteride use. It wrecked my libido so i had to pump up excess iron and do loads of squats to get back some of my lost sexual interest.
Ended up getting the worst sympathetic dominance type of overtraining ever. 6 months of heavy inflammed legs, neuromuscular problems, coordination issues, breathing problems, exhaustion, put up 20 pounds of weight and then it all came down to adrenal fatigue because off the inflammations and because i was dum enough to listen to coaches/doctors telling me to go swimming and drinking massive amounts of coffee thinking that cross exercise and stimulation would help me out of overtraining. Yet i was well into adrenal exhaustion and couldnt realise that. Coaches and doctors were all baffled. Ignorant fools telling me to cross exercise.
I almost recovered using adrenal cortex from wilson at some point but developed a serious mycobacterium infection in my genitals. Put on cipro for 3 weeks. That gave my adrenals a heavier blast.
Now after a year struggling between bed and hostpitals ive been feeling sicker than ever. I tried HC for 6-7 weeks but it messed up my head,have increased intracranial pressure and dizziness and nausea 2 months now and it doesnt seem to go away. It also messed up my thyroid levels really bad. Finally thyroid is coming back thank god.
So i go again for tests and find that this time my DHEA-S, Androstendione (Δ4) and 17-0H-progesterone have hit rock bottom. No need in doing cortisol saliva tests again after that i guess.
Im completely hypoglycemic, exhausted, depressed, sick of all this, no libido, ****ed up completely and i look at life from a keyhole right now hoping for a miracle.
Cant take Hydrocortisone/licorice or anyother blood pressure altering drug.
Cant take any more adrenal extracts coz i just simply dont trust the cows and pigs that they make those things from.
Thinking of taking DHEA supplement but dont know alot of people who have taken it to get some feedback.
Anyone pls help, will a DHEA supplementation help me revive my adrenals? Or should i keep on waiting and waiting? I have sleep issues as well so i take benzos some times or valeriana with mixed results. I think the benzos are exhausting me more.
Im in a freaking deadend dont know what to do anymore. I just feel so tired. Amazingly tired. No energy to get out of this stupid room. A single cigarette or a slight sip of coffee makes me so tired and hypoglycemic. I thought i would have recovered a yr after all this started but still nothing.
Any advice/ info on DHEA supplements? Will DHEA help my adrenals recover and cortisol get back to its normal producing rythms? Or is it direclty antagonizing to cortisol?
At this time i think that my adrenals are so blown that the whole pregnenolone pathway is shunted towards cortisol production thats why my DHEA levels are so low.
I am thinking of RESET ad as well but scared of the blood pressure altering potentials of licorice. How much glycirrizhic acid is in this product?
02-25-2008, 02:22 PM
If you can get to London,
do this test:
NutrEval Profile �550
NutrEval PLUS Profile �650
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