Interesting compounding question

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    Interesting compounding question


    I spoke to a local compounding pharmacist.

    I told him I was on Androgel and he said if he compounded test he would use a "banpen" or "vanpen" base which is much more highly absorbable than androgel and I would only need 5 mg of test a day to equal the 50 mg in androgel (i.e. virtually 100% absorbtion).

    Does that sound right?

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    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6572880.html

    In another embodiment, the pharmaceutically acceptable carrier of the present invention includes van pen cream (cetyl alcohol, stearyl alcohol, steric acid, gllycerol monosterate, isopropyl myristate, soya lecithin, BHT alcohol 95%, simethicone, sodium hydroxide 30% solution, polyoxyl stearate, edetate disodium 5%, purified water, urea).
    I don't know anything about what absorbs better then what - I know when I got my first bottle of compounded topical test it said on the label that it was in a urea base.
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    The creams and vanpen gel do absorb much better than the gels (in general). I have heard several other phamacists say that they were getting good results with low doses like that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPHMark View Post
    The creams and vanpen gel do absorb much better than the gels (in general). I have heard several other phamacists say that they were getting good results with low doses like that.

    I have used formulations with different carriers -a clear, alcohol-based gel, something that looked like a cream, but which the pharmacy called a gel, and a cream.

    I liked the cream the most, and the clear gel the least.

    Absorbance with the cream seemd particularly even; with the clear gel, it felt like the T was absorbed into my system in a bolus, so that I felt very energetic for a couple of hours and got real sleepy after that. The cream base was dermabase, I think.
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    I just switched from a cream to a gel that looks like a cream. Pharmacist said the clear type androgel absorbs the fastest, the non-clear gel I just switched to absorbs about mid and the cream absorbs the slowest. I am trying to see if I feel a difference with the non-clear gel. I forgot the base he used though darn it.
    Anyone done any research on how long the T creams or gels stay in your system after application? I was wondering how long it lasts and if it's necessary to apply twice a day.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpeil2 View Post
    I have used formulations with different carriers -a clear, alcohol-based gel, something that looked like a cream, but which the pharmacy called a gel, and a cream.

    I liked the cream the most, and the clear gel the least.

    Absorbance with the cream seemd particularly even; with the clear gel, it felt like the T was absorbed into my system in a bolus, so that I felt very energetic for a couple of hours and got real sleepy after that. The cream base was dermabase, I think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpeil2 View Post
    I have used formulations with different carriers -a clear, alcohol-based gel, something that looked like a cream, but which the pharmacy called a gel, and a cream.
    I spoke with a compounding pharmacy today and he described a "PLO" gel as a gel that looks like a cream and is supposed to be very absorbable.

    I am going to give it a shot. Actually, a rub.
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    Transdermal PLO gels are a compounding pharmaceutical base.


    "PLO disrupts the lipid layers of the stratum corneum without damaging the skin. This allows the medication to diffuse through the stratum corneum into the dermal-epidermal blood flow.

    Many of our topical products are compounded in a pluronic lecithin organogel base referred to as PLO gel. PLO is an emulsion that has the appearance and feel of a gel. It consists of both an aqueous and a lipid (fat soluble) phase, which causes the formation of micelles. The PLO base allows a drug to penetrate the skin without damaging it, so that the active drugs can easily enter into the systemic circulation. One unique characteristic of this base is that it is thermo reversible. It should be stored at room temperature to keep the emulsion solid; if refrigerated it quickly turns to liquid. "

    from what I've read, it is purports to have superior absorbability.
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    My gel is more like a lotion. I am told that it is a carbomer base. Is anyone familiar with the absorption rate of this formulation?
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    hmm...im on a gel-based product via Dr. Crisler and College Pharmacy (i think). anyone have input on this base/product?

    just switched from a more rubbed in style cream.
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    The truth is Testosterone just doesn't need much help to get across the skin and into the circulation. PLO gel is excellent for transdermal drug delivery. It works well for T but it isn't usually neccessary to deliver T across the skin(vanpen is similar but slightly more "cream" texture). The carbomer gel is what Androgel is. Androgel also has a fairly high alcohol content which allows it to dry fast, but there is not much of anything to enhance penetration so the dose of T in those gels is usually higher than is needed in a typical lotion or cream (or PLO gel).
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    My white gel has a lipoder base. Pharmacist said it absorbs better. I like it better, doesnt smell and seems to rub in better. Thats what he told me and what I notice too.
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    This subject is kewl. I enjoyed reading this.....keep us posted

    Much Love,

    Neoborn
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    Quote Originally Posted by aculpep View Post
    My white gel has a lipoder base. Pharmacist said it absorbs better. I like it better, doesnt smell and seems to rub in better. Thats what he told me and what I notice too.
    Lipoderm is essentially a more elegant and cosmetically appealing version of PLO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPHMark View Post
    Lipoderm is essentially a more elegant and cosmetically appealing version of PLO.
    When you say "more elegant and cosmetically appealing version of PLO", what do you mean?

    If you were able to choose between the two which would you pick and why?

    thx
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    I need a compounded product that absorbs more slowly, over an extended period. I get too many ups and downs with the gels I have tried. Any suggestions?
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    Question for RPHMark: Do you know of a compounded transdermal formulation that could help me get more steady levels through out a longer period? Angrogel gives me a quick up then an early down. Testim is slower on the rise yet runs out. BID dosing is a possibility if I has a dosage strenght that would make application convenient. This is why I am looking for a compounded product.



    Quote Originally Posted by nuker View Post
    I need a compounded product that absorbs more slowly, over an extended period. I get too many ups and downs with the gels I have tried. Any suggestions?
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuker View Post
    I need a compounded product that absorbs more slowly, over an extended period. I get too many ups and downs with the gels I have tried. Any suggestions?
    What may be the reason for your problem?

    One reason I know of is low SHBG.
    Low SHBG requires frequent T shots, E3D or E2D.
    IIRC it was first explained by dr Marianco, but I do not have handy link to that post.
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    Janz - Would injections help? Are they better for low SHBG?
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuker View Post
    Janz - Would injections help? Are they better for low SHBG?
    Do not really know.
    But is is worth trying.

    Post link to your complete blood test.
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    rick055- PLO is cheaper to make, but other than that I don't think it matters much. Testosterone doesn't need much help to get into the skin, and both bases are more than enough to deliver it well.
    nuker- In theory, the creams should provide more "sustained" release than the alcoholic gels, but I've never seen any study to back that up. The testosterone should partition less quickly out of the cream than out of the gel, but that is mostly theory, not verified.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuker View Post
    Question for RPHMark: Do you know of a compounded transdermal formulation that could help me get more steady levels through out a longer period? Angrogel gives me a quick up then an early down. Testim is slower on the rise yet runs out. BID dosing is a possibility if I has a dosage strenght that would make application convenient. This is why I am looking for a compounded product.


    I do not have supporting evidence, but
    I think transdermals (any transdermals) (if they actually work)
    have a much shorter time from application to when the testosterone gets into blood stream, when compared to injectables, specially when SubQ injected (into fat).

    Some people are sensitive to this velocity, they should use frequent SubQ injections.

    low SHBG, (probably also other conditions) require more frequent injections.


    On attachment
    Idealized graphically
    Blue line ---- transdermals (quick in-quick out)
    Red line ---- injectables (slower in - slower out)
    Attached Images Attached Images  
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    Thanks for the input. I'm seeing the doc tomorrow.
  

  
 

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