Finasteride induced Hypogon./Hashimoto?
- 09-20-2007, 12:41 PM
Finasteride induced Hypogon./Hashimoto?
I posted a while ago about my Thyroid and diagnosed w/ hashimotos thyroiditis. Well, back in the beginning of the year a pulled teeth with my D.O. to get other tests( some I put on lab order myself) First i'll say i've been on FIN for 8+ yrs and recently came off: here is the bloodwork on-
Test total 326 (250-1100)
% free test 2.21 (1.0-3.1)
Test free 72 (35-155)
estradiol. ultra sensitive 23 < or = 29
DHT 13 (25-75)
FT3 341 (230-420)
Ft4 1.3 (.8-1.8)
TSH 4.08 (0.4-5.5)
LH 3.4 (1.5-9.3)
Fsh 2.4 (1.6-8.0)
Let me say that this doc (D.O) is probably the most open minded doc I've met.( gone from endo to endo) He was willing to give me Androgel for low test but wasn't concerned about estrogen and dht. Also I showed him my adrenal tests, he agreed they were low but, wanted to address one issue at a time (adrenal or Test, and gave me the choice). This isn't even considering the thyroid issue, which was the original concern. I had salivary adrenal tests done on my own. All four tests were depressed except midnight test.(over value)
I've seen so many doctors, that the last endo I went to thought I was a hypochondriac, because of all my labs, and wanted me to "stop looking for things"
Sorry for the rant/long post-- Now for my question:
Could Fin have caused a hormonal imbalance, driving down DHT for many yrs, causing low test, estrogen dominance, adrenal fatigue, Hashimotos/ thyroid antibodies? Could my recent FIN dropping rebalance hormones?
Also what do people make of FSH and LH being on low end w/test being on low end? Does this point to Pituitary problems? Thanks in advance to all! --Raw
- 09-20-2007, 04:32 PM
You have your blood test.
Use Androgel or other transdermals to raise your TT and DHT
Use Armour Thyroid to get that in check.
You can buy Armour online.
For HCG and testosterone you need script.
Get more tests, you will find out what is out of line, will give you chance at making corrections.
Jan's BloodTest April13/2007
- 09-20-2007, 05:57 PM
The biggest thing that id be concerned about it your DHT level being so low. Will be interesting to see if it goes up on Androgel.
Will dropping Finasteride balance out your hormones? More than likely it will (or will seem to) but it might not. I think even when guys "recover" from finasteride, they dont realize that they are not what they were. It can effect people negatively in such subtle ways over a long period of time, so too many men put it down to old age etc.
09-20-2007, 06:15 PM
Finesteride lowers DHT which is a estrogen antagonist/estrogen regulator, and Finesteride will raise testosterone and estrogen by about 15% roughly.
But DHT binds to SHBG the greatest, causing more free testosterone.
So when you reduce DHT via Finesteride, as a result, i think some guys also get reduced free testosterone, and increased estrogen, in the absence of DHT, a potent estrogen antagonist.
So this exess estrogen can bind to thyroid hormones, messing up your thyroid.
I dont know how Finesteride or Dutasteride would cause adrenal fatigue, id be interested to hear the theory on how it might.
I suspect that i have adrenal fatigue, but i think that was due to using heavy stimulants and extreme stress, and not Dutasteride that i was using. I stopped Dutasteride a few months ago, but want to possibly restart with a recommended protective protocol of supplements,ect.
I had my DHEA-S levels, and 24 hour urine cortisol test just done, and should know the results early next week.
What i would do is get on some Aromasin, because i suspect your thyroid problem was due to the exess estrogen. It will reduce estrogen, lower SHBG, and increase testosterone.
Also, mabye try some Dermacrine Sustain, to get your natural testosterone levels up, and mabye some natural thyroid support. I want to try ZIP! from Protein Factory for this. Also Unleashed by Protein Factory claims to reduce SHBG.
As far as the Adrenal Fatigue, i dont know what to say, i think i have it myself, so im going to find out my results, and talk with my Doctor.
I just started taking Reset A.D. to help regulate the adrenals.
I do think that with the proper regimen, you can get your hormones back to normal, over time, but it may take time, and you may need a kick start.
Me personally, ive been on and off Finesteride, and Dutasteride, over the past 2 years, and after i quit, after 2-3 weeks, i always returned back to normal.
The sides that i had on both, were reduced stress tolerance, less powerfull ejaculation, fatigue, and a puffy face. But i returned to normal after a few weeks or quitting either Finesteride or Dutasteride.
Since May, i still have a puffy face and fatigue, i suspect Dutasteride wasnt the cause, because i noticed these sides, after heavy use of stimulants during this time period, and ive always bounced back from Finesteride/Dutasteride in the past, when i wasnt using any stimulants.
09-20-2007, 08:03 PM
I may have this wrong, but isnt hashimotos when your body attacks your thyroid?
I have heard of Finasteride causing hypothyroidism whether that is directly or secondary to somthing else i dont know. But it certainly does seem to trigger it.
I was hypothyroid before starting Finasteride...but I also had a very good libido too.
Couldnt agree more that taking out DHT will let E get out of control and cause the problems you mentioned.
I also have my doubts that Finasteride will directly cause adrenal burnout. But again, I think it is part of the big picture. When E gets out of control, your thryoid suffers and when your thyroid suffers, your adrenals suffer to a point. Its just not a good idea to take out DHT. Wish I knew that before I took it. Thats how Merck promotes their drug - by DHT bashing and making a note of saying that your T level increases implying that this is a good thing. In the big scheme of things T is not of much use if it doesnt convert to DHT.
I wonder what causes the puffy face, as I still have this a year and half after stopping Finasteride. Ive always suspected its E dominence.
09-20-2007, 08:42 PM
Wow, you have this puffy face too jaydee?
For me in know its not estrogen, because i used ATD ( AIMF ), and lowered estrogen so low my joints were hurting and my sex drive was shot, and it didnt help the puffy face.
Im doing some testing, but its either adrenal fatigue/thyroid, food allergy or some other allergy, or prolactin. Thats all i could really think of, but i feel like **** and i gained a little fat on my lower abs, and ive never had fat there and i havent changed anything in my diet or lifestyle, so there's no reason for it. This all happened after using heavy stims, and i felt low energy,ect, ever since.
My TSH was 1.24 ref 0.35 - 5.00 so i dont think i have any direct thyroid problems, i'll bet its adrenal fatigue or burn out. Plus im hungry all the time so i dont think anybody with hypothyroid would always be hungry.
Here's a quote about estrogen and thyroid. Also, a guy on the hairloss forums posted a whole slew of info about how exess estrogen can hinder your thyroid function. It only makes sense that thats the only was Finesteride can cause thyroid problems, because DHT doesnt have an effect on T3.
"2) Adrenal Function
High levels of stress will make you release high amounts of adrenaline and cortisol. It will send you
into a chronic state that will break down structures in your body such as your muscles and your gut.
It will cause poor digestion, preventing you from absorbing nutrients from food. High cortisol levels
will lead to fat gain around the belly and eventually to adrenal fatigue. Adrenal fatigue leads to low
cortisol levels which will cause bloating after you eat, sleep disturbances (waking at night) and
overall weight gain. When cortisol is low, excess estrogen is produced which binds to thyroid
hormone, rendering it useless. Those with adrenal fatigue will have difficulty with weight loss
unless the adrenal function is addressed"
Lots of people have no problems inhibiting DHT, and some do. I beleive with the proper supplement protocol, it can be done without problems. Ive see a guy in his 30's post his blood results while being on Dutasteride for a couple years, and all was perfect.
Hairloss truely sucks, but its hard to accept balding in your early 20's, and i dont have faith in topicals. I have to put together a serious plan of protection, to use along with Dutasteride.
09-20-2007, 08:56 PM
The only thing I can think of is maybe your total E is out of control.
Have you tried DIM/Calcium D Glucarate or TMG to lower total E?
Have you checked Progesterone?
Thats an interesting note on Adrenals....
I dont know if you guys have a "93 food allergy panel", but that would be somthing I would look into if i were you. I had one done and around 11 allergies showed up. Im still not sold on how effective it is to correct them though. I havnt seen the benefits of restricting my diet so much yet. I also dont notice the difference if I slip up on my diet and eat those foods I shouldnt. Seems like a whole lot of work for no benefit, but im gonna persist with it to see what happens.
Look into your guts before you do allergins. I have noticed more mental clarity and less brain fog/headaches since i got that corrected. Who knows how good the benefits would be if I wasnt having hormonal issues as well. In fact I know doctors who wont prescribe hormonal suppliments until the gut/food allergies are taken care of because they feel it is a complete waste of time until those problems are dealt with.
09-20-2007, 09:24 PM
DIM/Calcium D Glucarate or TMG,ect, cant hold a candle to ATD ( AIMF ). ATD is stronger that Arimidex, and i tried Arimidex too, and it didnt get rid of my puffy face. As i said i drove my estrogen VERY low, and it didnt help.
By guts, you mean check food allergies right? Ive never had them before, so i dont know why they would pop up all of a sudden. I was fine before MAY, when i messed with all the stims,ect.
09-20-2007, 10:14 PM
By guts i mean gut flora a permiability. Food allergies can pop up any time.
09-20-2007, 10:45 PM
09-21-2007, 02:08 AM
I don't know which hormone took a turn downward first,but to quote Thierry Hertoghe M.D. Hrt Expert "Testosterone protects the thyroid gland from autoimmune inflammation, which 10 to 15% of women over forty have.The most commen form is known as Hashimoto's disease" So by this doctor's point, Hypogonadism could cause thyroid disease (autoimmune disorder and antibodies) which in turn could overwork the CNS and cause Adrenal fatigue. Or AF caused by Fin could cause low test causing low thyroid causing low..... I don't know the pathway....point is where to start...and where to find a doc that is knowledgable enough to treat.. I found a doctor today that treats TRT w/ HCG and Arimidex if needed, that's within my
Insurance plan. If this Doc fails to help, I might jump on a plane to Lansing.(w/ Dr. John's approval, of course) -Raw
Last edited by raw1973; 09-21-2007 at 12:42 PM. Reason: wanted to add
09-21-2007, 02:34 AM
Its interesting how the majority of finasteride users lose only a few hundred on their T level. They end up around 500 - 550. Adrenal fatigue can account for 100 or 200 im sure i heard Dr Marianco saying. Well either way, adrenals is the place to start. Then thyroid, then T, E etc.......
09-21-2007, 05:29 AM
What exactly do you have in mind as far as treating this goes, from here on out?
You mentioned you already tried jumpstarting with a SERM (I currently am myself).
Did you have no success at all doing this? Did it at least raise T levels for you while you were on it?
09-21-2007, 08:55 PM
Its different for everyone. I tried SERM's and they didnt work for me. Never got blood tests, I just didnt feel any better, and at the time was pretty much suicidal so decided to go straight for TRT.
Im just doing the usual T cream and HCG, but its not working. Need to do some more investigating.
Its not really a statistic, just somthing ive noticed after reading heaps of guys bloods. Really they are all over the place, but there are quite a few who have just lost 1 or 200 on their total testosterone. But free T seems to be low a lot too...im just generalising..
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