HCG vs. gonadotropin releasing hormone?

[DuncanWA]

I’m on my third round of blood work and won’t bore you with the earlier results unless someone thinks they are important but for the last several months I’ve been on 100mg test, 25mg pregnenolone, 5mg DHEA in compounded cream. Results so far include easing of ADD symptoms, overall slightly better mood, infrequent morning wood, and insignificant increase in libido. Oh, and my nuts shrunk.

Latest labs done by Quest on September 5, 2007 showed:

Dihydrotest 37 25-75 ng/dl
Total test 348 250-1100 ng/dl
Test FREE 104.4 35-155
% free test 3 1.5-2.2 HIGH per Quest
Gonadotropin releasing hormone 5.2 4-8 pg/ml
FSH 1.5 1.6-8 mIU/ml
LH 1.7 1.5-9.3 mIU/ml
Estradiol 31 13-54 pg/ml
Progesterone .6 .1-1.2 NG/ml


Result was Doc upped my test to 150mg leaving the prognelelone and DHEA the same. I asked for HCG supplementation but instead he wants me to go on shots of gonadotropin releasing hormone? He described it much the same way as HCG – 3xweek at 250IU but he said HCG (per our compounding pharmacy here) was $75/SHOT? Sounds funny to me.

Question – is gonadotropin releasing hormone the same as HCG? I’ve been reading this board for a while and have never seen anyone getting injections of gonadotropin releasing hormone although it sure sounds like they are soooo similar?

Thanks in advance for any feedback…..

 

[JanSz]

I’m on my third round of blood work and won’t bore you with the earlier results unless someone thinks they are important but for the last several months I’ve been on 100mg test, 25mg pregnenolone, 5mg DHEA in compounded cream. Results so far include easing of ADD symptoms, overall slightly better mood, infrequent morning wood, and insignificant increase in libido. Oh, and my nuts shrunk.

Latest labs done by Quest on September 5, 2007 showed:

Dihydrotest 37 25-75 ng/dl
Total test 348 250-1100 ng/dl
Test FREE 104.4 35-155
% free test 3 1.5-2.2 HIGH per Quest
Gonadotropin releasing hormone 5.2 4-8 pg/ml
FSH 1.5 1.6-8 mIU/ml
LH 1.7 1.5-9.3 mIU/ml
Estradiol 31 13-54 pg/ml
Progesterone .6 .1-1.2 NG/ml


Result was Doc upped my test to 150mg leaving the prognelelone and DHEA the same. I asked for HCG supplementation but instead he wants me to go on shots of gonadotropin releasing hormone? He described it much the same way as HCG – 3xweek at 250IU but he said HCG (per our compounding pharmacy here) was $75/SHOT? Sounds funny to me.

Question – is gonadotropin releasing hormone the same as HCG? I’ve been reading this board for a while and have never seen anyone getting injections of gonadotropin releasing hormone although it sure sounds like they are soooo similar?

Thanks in advance for any feedback…..

Gonadotropin-releasing hormone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
gonadotropin releasing hormone
possibly your doc is experimenting with you.
Unless you have a better doctor, you have to humor him to a point, just do it with open eyes.
HCG Novarel should cost about $70 per 10000iu vial.
Will last you long time instead of one shot.
Do not use subsitute, use original Novarel.
What test are you using, brand name, generic or compounded?
When you do T shots, do it on E3D, every three days.
Draw blood on the day of the shot, time of the shot, before shot.
Do not eat since about 9PM night before, drink 16oz of plain water one hour before draw.
If you can help it, do the blood draw at Quest Diagnostics.

Get blood test, post #44
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-2.html

you will learn some more about your body.

So far it loos like you must have sky high SHBG, 100mg test resulted in TotalTest in bottom range.

Usualy high SHBG is a result of other problems, do that blood test.
Latter on you may want to do the other (optional) tests.

 

[DuncanWA]

Thought I'd update the picture a little

more. Posting my previous 2 tests - Rhein 24hr urine and Quest blood draw...

First test was 24-hour urine collection done by Rhein – units in ug/24 hours done in April 2007.

E1 3.7 3-12.0
E2 1 0-7.0
E3 4.5 1-16
Total estrogens 9.2 4-22
Test 35 45-85 LOW per Rhein
Dihydrotest 13 0-13
Androstanediol 118 48-578
Androstenedione 91 0-50 HIGH per Rhein
DHEA 1424 5-1476
5-AT 477 42-710
Androsterone 4580 798-4705
OHAN 1277 461-1692
ET 2723 689-3252
OHET 1134 134-1186
Progesterone None None detected
Pregnanediol 375 32-501
5-PT 394 28-1062
Cortisone 281 92-366
THE 5497 1365-5788
THB 188 32-238
5a-THB 667 135-588 HIGH per Rhein
THA 167 52-277
Cortisol 123 35-168
THF 1959 942-2800
5a-THF 2761 796-2456 HIGH per Rhein
T4 free in urine 1.08 .31-2.01
T3 free in urine 4.47 1.16-3.45

Result was Doc put me on 50mg on compounded test cream.

Bloodwork drawn by Quest July 2007 showed:

Dihydrotest 30 25-75 ng/dl
Test total 234 250-1100 ng/dl
% free test 3.26 1.1-2.8 HIGH per Quest
Testosterone, FREE 76.2 pg/ml 35-155
DHEA sulfate 203 45-345 mcg/dl
Cortisol AM 15.1 4-22 mcg/dl

Result is Doc upped my test to 100mg and added 25mg pregnenolone and 5mg DHEA to the compounded cream. Third blood test was posted in the first part of this thread and resulted in upping test to 150mg and leaving the others the same. Also we will start 250IUs of gonadotropin releasing hormone 3xweek once the local compounding pharmacy gets it in....


Man, this is definitely a journey...

Today my doc "taught" me about the feedback loop with the pituitary, hypothalamus, LH and FSH. His thinking is the gonadotropin releasing hormone should be higher in relation to the low LH, FSH and Test. It sure looks like the GNRH stimulates the same things as the HCG - LH, FSH.... but again I've never seen anyone posting here thats ever mentioned this as a protocol. I'll see where it goes as the Doc seems up to speed.....

 

[rick055]

Keep us informed, Duncan, it certainly sounds like it makes sense.

 

[JanSz]

more. Posting my previous 2 tests - Rhein 24hr urine and Quest blood draw...

First test was 24-hour urine collection done by Rhein – units in ug/24 hours done in April 2007.

E1 3.7 3-12.0
E2 1 0-7.0
E3 4.5 1-16
Total estrogens 9.2 4-22
Test 35 45-85 LOW per Rhein
Dihydrotest 13 0-13
Androstanediol 118 48-578
Androstenedione 91 0-50 HIGH per Rhein
DHEA 1424 5-1476
5-AT 477 42-710
Androsterone 4580 798-4705
OHAN 1277 461-1692
ET 2723 689-3252
OHET 1134 134-1186
Progesterone None None detected
Pregnanediol 375 32-501
5-PT 394 28-1062
Cortisone 281 92-366
THE 5497 1365-5788
THB 188 32-238
5a-THB 667 135-588 HIGH per Rhein
THA 167 52-277
Cortisol 123 35-168
THF 1959 942-2800
5a-THF 2761 796-2456 HIGH per Rhein
T4 free in urine 1.08 .31-2.01
T3 free in urine 4.47 1.16-3.45

Result was Doc put me on 50mg on compounded test cream.

Bloodwork drawn by Quest July 2007 showed:

Dihydrotest 30 25-75 ng/dl
Test total 234 250-1100 ng/dl
% free test 3.26 1.1-2.8 HIGH per Quest
Testosterone, FREE 76.2 pg/ml 35-155
DHEA sulfate 203 45-345 mcg/dl
Cortisol AM 15.1 4-22 mcg/dl

Result is Doc upped my test to 100mg and added 25mg pregnenolone and 5mg DHEA to the compounded cream. Third blood test was posted in the first part of this thread and resulted in upping test to 150mg and leaving the others the same. Also we will start 250IUs of gonadotropin releasing hormone 3xweek once the local compounding pharmacy gets it in....


Man, this is definitely a journey...

Today my doc "taught" me about the feedback loop with the pituitary, hypothalamus, LH and FSH. His thinking is the gonadotropin releasing hormone should be higher in relation to the low LH, FSH and Test. It sure looks like the GNRH stimulates the same things as the HCG - LH, FSH.... but again I've never seen anyone posting here thats ever mentioned this as a protocol. I'll see where it goes as the Doc seems up to speed.....

I think you are on compounded testosterone cream, right?
All the time I thought you are on T shots.
===========================================
You said:
for the last several months I’ve been on 100mg test, 25mg pregnenolone, 5mg DHEA in compounded cream.

You are probably describing content of the cream.
Say, one gram of compounded cream contains
100mg test
25mg preg
5mg DHEA

how many grams of that cream are you taking daily?

 

[DuncanWA]

Yep - compounded cream.

 

[JanSz]

Yep - compounded cream.

You are wasting you time, go for T shots plus check thyroid.

Give me your SHBG I will calculate you initial dose of DepoTestosterone 200mg/mL
Use E3D schedule, do not waste time on less frequent injections.
If you do not have SHBG use 100 or better 120mg/week

Do blood test per my post #44.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-2.html

 

[Kasumeat]

This is the first time I've heard of this medication. I suffer from hypothalamic hypogonadism, so would this not be by far the best way to treat that?

 

[rick055]

You are wasting you time, go for T shots plus check thyroid.

Jan, I thought you did well on gels for a while. Or is it specifically creams you don't like?

Dr. Crisler seems to think gels are the way to go. Why do you differ?

 

[JanSz]

Jan, I thought you did well on gels for a while. Or is it specifically creams you don't like?

Dr. Crisler seems to think gels are the way to go. Why do you differ?

#1 he is on T cream that is additionally loaded with little preg and even less DHEA.
I had absorption problem with T cream, even thou I was getting average results on Androgel. By average I mean I was getting results as reported in Androgel leafleat without the +-error range that they report.

Shots are better even comparing to my good experience with Androgel.
Life must be very much scheduled when on transdermals.
Showers have to be planned, life quality is distrupted.
And that with working transdermals.
When someone have a absorption problems, I think it is totally worthless.
If transdermals are actually working, comes DHT problem.
You have to close eyes on sky high DHT and buy somebodys blabbering on why very high DHT is good for you.
Well, you do not have to buy it, go take finasteride and see how it affects you.

I see use in Androgel for someone who needs DHT and then hopefully hi do not have absorption problems.
========================
I think dr John have young healty men testosterone 24hr cycle in mind when using transdermals (but he calls it pulsing). I do not thing transdermals are replicating this cycle.

Most likely E2D shots would be closer to that cycle.
If those levels were available on hourly basis we could run some statistical analysis to compare them.

 

[DuncanWA]

My test is dosed in .5ml increments - 100 (to be 150) mg test, 25mg pregnenolone, 5mg DHEA.

Based in the really slow rise in test levels, I will do 1 more round of blood work (in 6 weeks) then see if we can make the switch. The cream works fine for me (other than the absorbtion?) but I DO have to plan my workouts for later in the day so as not to wash out all the good stuff.

I'll post more once I get the injectibles (will be a few weeks per the pharm). I wanted HCG but he felt this was the way to go. He is an agreeable doc, so he does see me as a partner in this...

 

[JanSz]

My test is dosed in .5ml increments - 100 (to be 150) mg test, 25mg pregnenolone, 5mg DHEA.

Based in the really slow rise in test levels, I will do 1 more round of blood work (in 6 weeks) then see if we can make the switch. The cream works fine for me (other than the absorbtion?) but I DO have to plan my workouts for later in the day so as not to wash out all the good stuff.

I'll post more once I get the injectibles (will be a few weeks per the pharm). I wanted HCG but he felt this was the way to go. He is an agreeable doc, so he does see me as a partner in this...

Get HCG right avay, no sense going thru rebalancing twice.
Forget creams, get Depo-T 200mg/ml
Give me your SHBG I will calculate good size preliminary dose of T shots. Otherwise use 100mg/week or better 120mg/week.
Use E3D schedule, do not mess around with weekly or some such.

 

[dcguy4u]

GnRH is released by hypothalymus . Pitutary reponds to GnRH by releasing LH and FSH . LH stimukates Leydig cells in testicles to produce T.

That said , thats how SERMs work. They block estrogen receptor in hypothalymus , fooling in to believe that there is no T , hypothalmus responds by releasing GnRH. SERMs are not safe long term.


Also , I have never heard of GnRH being injected/applied. If that could be done ..you will essentially start on top of hormone feedback loop.

HCG is like LH but is not LH. When you inhect HCG , even though
you have your body making your own T , but you are working at
pituatary level and leaving hypothalmus out of the loop.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[MarkLA]

I had read that GNRH therapy is done with many tiny pulsile injections. I took this to be that you'd need to wear some device which pumps the hormone in to you at certain intervals.

This link applies to women, but talks about it in more detail: http://www.ivf.com/gnrh.html

I'm no expert, but I've not read about a 1x day or 1x week GNRH shot. IMHO, it does not exist.

Mark

 

[rick055]

That said , thats how SERMs work. They block estrogen receptor in hypothalymus , fooling in to believe that there is no T , hypothalmus responds by releasing GnRH. SERMs are not safe long term.

Is anastrozole a SERM? Why is it not safe long term? What is long term?

I thought using .25 mg Arimidex E3D was safe long term.

 

[dcguy4u]

Is anastrozole a SERM? Why is it not safe long term? What is long term?

I thought using .25 mg Arimidex E3D was safe long term.

Armidex is not a SERM. Armidex is an AI (aromatase inhibitor). It inhbits the enzyme that converts T to E. SERMs are selective estrogen receptor modulator , they work by blocking the estrogen receptors in brain. They are not safe long term 'cus they can cause impotence and loss of libido if used long term. What is long term I dont know ? I wouldn't use them for more than couple of months. SERMs are used by body builders and anti agings docs to rceover HPTA , if at all that can be done. Pls educate yourself before putting chemicals in your body.

 

[DuncanWA]

I had read that GNRH therapy is done with many tiny pulsile injections. I took this to be that you'd need to wear some device which pumps the hormone in to you at certain intervals.

This link applies to women, but talks about it in more detail: http://www.ivf.com/gnrh.html

I'm no expert, but I've not read about a 1x day or 1x week GNRH shot. IMHO, it does not exist.

Mark

Thats what my readings have shown --- an implanted pump. But he's going to get my on 250IUs 3xweek. I'm going to talk to the pharm today since it sounds a little off.

 

[DuncanWA]

Case closed.....`

Talked with the Pharm and she said we have HCG on order. Doc was mixing his terms....... My mind is eased.

 

[rick055]

Pls educate yourself before putting chemicals in your body.

That was the point of the quesitons

 

[JanSz]

Talked with the Pharm and she said we have HCG on order. Doc was mixing his terms....... My mind is eased.

Do not relax.
Make sure that you are getting original Novarel.
There have been repots that substitue do not work as good.

 

[DuncanWA]

The Pharm mentioned that all their suppliers are out until mid-October. The only supplier that has anything (she did not specify - I did not ask) had single pre-loaded 250IU syringes. I DID show her a printout I had for Novarel (on your suggestion) to make sure we were talking about the same thing, and she said we were on the same page.

 

[JanSz]

The Pharm mentioned that all their suppliers are out until mid-October. The only supplier that has anything (she did not specify - I did not ask) had single pre-loaded 250IU syringes. I DID show her a printout I had for Novarel (on your suggestion) to make sure we were talking about the same thing, and she said we were on the same page.

Pre-loaded syringes with Novarel.

That is new one.

Make sure they were kept cold on the route between factory and pharmacy.
Make sure you have a cooler full of ice when you go to pick it up.

 

[biker340]

I don't know about that. I would be to nervous that I was just injecting the water without the active gonatropins.

I would prefer to actually mix it up/ activate it myself to insure quality...