HCG vs Clomid for TRT

[Pace2]

I just got back from the Urologist to discuss going back on TRT. As a reminder, I was on Androgel, which made me infertile, went off Androgel, and now my wife is pregant but I feel like crap. Total T is now only 266, 9 months after stopping androgel.

He suggested, and I concur, not to start T replacement yet, until my wife is further along on the pregnancy, but agreed that clomid or HCG would be a good start to at least getting the levels up again. Bioavailable T test is being done.

My question is: He strongly prefers clomid at 25 mg because he says it has less side effects and costs alot less. He was less comfortable with HCG. From reading the boards here, it certainly seems like the consensus is HCG. Why? I think he will do what I prefer, but I need reasons.

 

[Pace2]

Jansz, plymouth city any help here?

 

[JanSz]

I just got back from the Urologist to discuss going back on TRT. As a reminder, I was on Androgel, which made me infertile, went off Androgel, and now my wife is pregant but I feel like crap. Total T is now only 266, 9 months after stopping androgel.

He suggested, and I concur, not to start T replacement yet, until my wife is further along on the pregnancy, but agreed that clomid or HCG would be a good start to at least getting the levels up again. Bioavailable T test is being done.

My question is: He strongly prefers clomid at 25 mg because he says it has less side effects and costs alot less. He was less comfortable with HCG. From reading the boards here, it certainly seems like the consensus is HCG. Why? I think he will do what I prefer, but I need reasons.

Gray area.
Clomid may be good, but people fear side effects, ie vison problems.
Supposedly the amount of Clomid used in your case may be considered a small ( ie. hopefully no side effects).

I have one member PM-ing me, dr Shippen is rather succesfully using Clomid to raise his TotalT, and he did not complained about vission problems. His FreeT=200, (envy).

We here, are usually use HCG to keep testicles size and production.
You should also be fertile while on HCG.
In case of fertility problem while on HCG, HMG could be added 75iu/day (big $$$).
===================
You do not need to stop Androgel for fertility reasons.
Just add HCG.
250iu/E2D every other day.
===================
If you go Clomid route, there is a chance that you may stay on Clomid (forewer) and no Androgel or other external T.

 

[corndog]

Is HcG the only thing that keeps you balls working and from shrinking?

 

[plymouth city]

Is HcG the only thing that keeps you balls working and from shrinking?

I am not a fan of clomid.

Clomid is a stone age way to keep testical production during a cycle/HRT.

hcG is a much more effective way.

To Pace -
Age?
Bloodwork pre androgel?

 

[corndog]

I realise HcG is the way to go but difficult getting Dr. to buy into this. I understand I can get HcG but I am not a big fan of self medicating.

As both you and JanSz had replied to many of my postings I was just looking for a alternative to HcG until the time comes where I get my Dr. on board. I just switched Dr. because my previous ones (family practice and urologist) were not aggressive with dealing with my low test, 171. Also, it took years to convince my Dr. to switch me to Armour thus I switched to a new Dr.

He is just trying to solve one issue at a time and I hope will get to the point of a complete TRT program. Right now he is glad my sex life has gettin better and my depression is better but dam I am mean and angry all the time.

 

[plymouth city]

Corn
post complete BW and what drugs you are currently on.

The best OTC source for LH would be resveratrol.

 

[corndog]

MEDS

Test-e 100mg/e3d
Armour 2g
Lamictal 300mg (bi-polar)
Wellbutrin 200mg (depression)
Lisinopril 20mg (high BP)
Klonopin .2mg (help with sleeping)
Aspirin 325mg (High hemoglobin)

BIO TEST 899 (was 171 in july)
FREE T 34.9 (was 7.1 is july)
DHT - NEVER TESTED
E2 66
SHGB 22.8
PROLATIN (6.76 in july, not tested last time)
TSH .89
T4 .90
T3 (just had BT, will have # friday) Dr. said all good, left med as is
Triglyserides 120
HDL 49
LDL 138
CHD RISK 4.3
ALBIMUM 4.5
PSA .31
FSH .21
LH .20
WBC 6.10
RBC 5.4
HGB 17.8 (Just had phlebotomy done, I get this test every 2 weeks
HCT 51.9
MCV 96
MCHC 34.2
RDW 14.2
PLT 233
PMN 3.8
LYM 1.40
MONO .5
EOS .3

 

[JanSz]

MEDS

Test-e 100mg/e3d
Armour 2g
Lamictal 300mg (bi-polar)
Wellbutrin 200mg (depression)
Lisinopril 20mg (high BP)
Klonopin .2mg (help with sleeping)
Aspirin 325mg (High hemoglobin)

BIO TEST 899 (was 171 in july)
FREE T 34.9 (was 7.1 is july)
DHT - NEVER TESTED
E2 66
SHGB 22.8
PROLATIN (6.76 in july, not tested last time)
TSH .89
T4 .90
T3 (just had BT, will have # friday) Dr. said all good, left med as is
Triglyserides 120
HDL 49
LDL 138
CHD RISK 4.3
ALBIMUM 4.5
PSA .31
FSH .21
LH .20
WBC 6.10
RBC 5.4
HGB 17.8 (Just had phlebotomy done, I get this test every 2 weeks
HCT 51.9
MCV 96
MCHC 34.2
RDW 14.2
PLT 233
PMN 3.8
LYM 1.40
MONO .5
EOS .3

Repost or edit your test results, post name, value, units, range, name of laboratory.

Test-e 100mg/e3d
are you doing shots, one shot every three days, each shot size 100mg ???
or
100mg/week on E3D schedule??

Or something else.

Get
FreeT3
FreeT4
Total Testosterone

 

[corndog]

total test 899ng/dl (300 - 1200)
free test 34.7pg/ml (8/7 - 25)e
Dont have the units for thyroid. The results shown didnt include T3 or reverse t3. I had a complete panel done and I get a copy of the numbers tomorrow.

TSH .89 .34 - 5.6) units I will look up
T4 .90 (.6 - 1.1)
T3 not test at this time,

I take 100mg of test-e per week divied into E3D. So some weeks I actualy have 3 shots and the next usually works out to only 2 shots that week. I divided the 100mg/week into e3d.

My labs are taken a my local hospital.

 

[Pace2]

Thanks for the help.

I'm 40 years old--I don't have a copy of the pre-androgel blood tests, but I believe total T was in the 300's, LH was low, FSH was okay, Estrogen was ok. I was treated for low thyroid with synthroid, but it really made no change in levels. I'm seeing a new doctor who is very knowledgeable but is only testing for total test and free test, although we had baselines on LH and FSH before. What other blood tests (within reason--I don't want to freak him out) should I ask for? Just Dr. John's recommendations?

 

[JanSz]

Thanks for the help.

I'm 40 years old--I don't have a copy of the pre-androgel blood tests, but I believe total T was in the 300's, LH was low, FSH was okay, Estrogen was ok. I was treated for low thyroid with synthroid, but it really made no change in levels. I'm seeing a new doctor who is very knowledgeable but is only testing for total test and free test, although we had baselines on LH and FSH before. What other blood tests (within reason--I don't want to freak him out) should I ask for? Just Dr. John's recommendations?

The more you know the better help you can get.

Post #44
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-2.html

 

[MarkLA]

Corn
post complete BW and what drugs you are currently on.

The best OTC source for LH would be resveratrol.

Plymouth, I'm interested in how resveratrol works with LH. I found this article. Do you have more?

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/135/4/757

Thanks,
Mark

 

[plymouth city]

"Lamictal 300mg (bi-polar)
Wellbutrin 200mg (depression)
Lisinopril 20mg (high BP)
Klonopin .2mg (help with sleeping)"

Its no wonder you ended up on TRT.

All 4 of those drugs above, with lamictal and klonopin in particular, wreck havoc on the androgenic hormones of the body.

I speculate klonopin may also blunt GH release during sleep - as pretty much all prescription sleep aids do this, as a rule

 

[kieroneil]

Clomid + HCG

I am not a fan of clomid.

Clomid is a stone age way to keep testical production during a cycle/HRT.

hcG is a much more effective way.

Interesting. My doctor has me on 51mg of Clomid AND HCG in my off-cycle.

Is he just covering all the bases?

 

[corndog]

I'm gonna switch to benedril i think for sleep. One of the problems I have with head meds is that you take one pill for depression and it gives you sides so you need another. It a never ending cycle.

Example, Klonopin is great for relaxing you and in my case getting my brain to slow down and relax so I can sleep. Get this, one of its side effects. Can cause depression

 

[plymouth city]

Interesting. My doctor has me on 51mg of Clomid AND HCG in my off-cycle.

Is he just covering all the bases?

Thats a whopping dose of clomid.

I don't see any reason why one would ever need to go over 25mg.

 

[plymouth city]

"Lamictal 300mg (bi-polar)
Wellbutrin 200mg (depression)
Lisinopril 20mg (high BP)
Klonopin .2mg (help with sleeping)"

Its no wonder you ended up on TRT.

All 4 of those drugs above, with lamictal and klonopin in particular, wreck havoc on the androgenic hormones of the body.

I speculate klonopin may also blunt GH release during sleep - as pretty much all prescription sleep aids do this, as a rule

Some more to add.

Did a little more research on lisinopril via lef and other medical textbooks.

Like all BP meds, they are especially harsh on the liver. They are known to clog up the liver. Guess what else does this? Aspirin

Guess what happens to your liver? It loses its ability to clear estrogen from the body.

BP meds and aspirin = estrogenic. The facts are pretty clear.

I have noticed your E2 level is pretty bad.

 

[rick055]

I'm gonna switch to benedril i think for sleep.

corndog, I'd be interested to hear what others have to say about it's safety, but I just started taking melatonin (3 mg) at night (in addition to my ZMA) to help sleep and it's unreal.

It almost feels like a mild xanax to me and the worst "side effect" I've had is a really mild headache in the morning (it's almost not even a real headache, if that makes sense) which goes away after my first cup of java.

I usually toss and turn and I now wake up mostly not even remembering sleeping.

Might be worth a shot.

As far as benadryl goes, it can sure put you to sleep, but it left me a little groggy in the a.m., although it's not the worst side in the world, either.

Hydroxyzine, another antihistamine, might be something to look at as well since it can help anxiety, too.

Good luck and hang in there!!!

 

[bem9127]

I'm gonna switch to benedril i think for sleep. One of the problems I have with head meds is that you take one pill for depression and it gives you sides so you need another. It a never ending cycle.

Example, Klonopin is great for relaxing you and in my case getting my brain to slow down and relax so I can sleep. Get this, one of its side effects. Can cause depression

Have you ever tried Kava Kava?

Look for something that is at least 40% standardized. KAVIAR® Instant Kava Powder is a good one)

I have a vendor that I've used for 3 years now. If you want this information feel free to send me private mail.

Some people have luck with Valerian Root.

I prefer Kava Kava and Melatonin combination.

Another combination to try is Malatonin and Tryptophan.

All readily available OTC.

 

[bem9127]

Interesting. My doctor has me on 51mg of Clomid AND HCG in my off-cycle.

Is he just covering all the bases?

My understanding of Clomid is that Clomid is used to "remove" estrogen from the blood whereas Arimidex is a Estrogen blocker.

If this is the case, then they perform two distinctly different functions.

That is how it was explained to me...the short version.

 

[Pace2]

Just got my results from my 1 month on 250 IU of HCG 3x/week.

Total T was up to 330 and Free T was 60. Better but not great.

Estrogen was good at 23. The doctor wants to increase the dosage to 500 IU 3x/week. I am worried about rising E2 so we'll keep an eye on it. And I suggested using less more often during the week.

We're holding off Androgel until my wife gives birth.

I do feel better, no headaches, more libido, but I always seem to wake up about 3 AM and just can't get back to sleep. Anyone else have this problem?

 

[rick055]

I do feel better, no headaches, more libido, but I always seem to wake up about 3 AM and just can't get back to sleep. Anyone else have this problem?

Glad you are feeling better.

I have always had bouts with poor sleep, although being on test has helped dramatically.

That said, I also swear by 3 mg melatonin 30 minutes before bed time. I've been using it for about a month and for me it's almost like a xanax.

Start with 1 mg and work you way up if you don't feel groggy the next day and/or you need to.

 

[SilkPhantom]

As a longtime poor-sleep sufferer I found that melatonin worked initially, but it's effects quickly lessened overtime to the point where it did nothing for me. Just my experience...

 

[corndog]

Let me give a quick health background

low test
high bp
high hemoglobin
depression/bi-polar

Test e for low testosterone. If I inject late in the day it effects my sleep so I would assume HCG does the same. Maybe try and take your HCG earlier.

Aspirin - I have high hemoglobin in which I get tested bi-weekly. Dr. told me to take a aspirin per day to help this. If it high I get blood removed (500-1000mil) and saline put in to thin the blood.

I have had trouble sleeping for 15 years so head Dr. gave me Klonopin which works great. I was trying to stop taking it so thought I would try Benedril which used to work for me.

No offence to anyone but I have minimal faith in any supplements. I've tried just about everything for bodybuilding and or general health. Now all I take is a multi, vit c, fish oil.

I do take a stim before workouts (5:30 am). Either Liquid Clen or leviathan. I was taking DCP but noticed nothing.

 

[T800]

Be careful trying to take yourself off of Klonopin. I have tried several times over the years and have never been able to do so. I hate the fact that I have to rely on this drug, but I have to be realistic about it, too. As some of you know, few things can wreck your life faster than not being able to sleep.

Klonopin has a very long half life...around 27 hrs IIRC. If I were to try again, I would probably gradually move towards meds with shorter half lives....and then at the end try something herbal/natural.

Sonny

 

[corndog]

Thanks, yeah, I use Klonopin to sleep and tried lowering the dose and add benedryl and then added in ZMA and it didnt work. Not sure if its all in my head or not but if I dont take Klonopin before bed i dont sleep

 

[rfish1966]

I am in the middle of stoping ambien, I think thats in the class of benzo's like klonopin. Anyways, even with a slow taper this is just hell...klonopin was easier but thats not saying much took being off that for a few weeks to get back to normal. I think it has somewhere near a 40 hour half life in the body.

 

[Pace2]

Just got back from the urologist on month #2 of my HCG therapy. Spent the last 30 days on HCG only 500 IU 3x week. Total T moved up a bit to 330 and Free T went from 60 to 90. Unfortunately Estrogen went from 23 to 34. Going to try one month at 250 IU 5x a week, and if that doesn't do much, switch to clomid. Any thoughts?

 

[JanSz]

Just got back from the urologist on month #2 of my HCG therapy. Spent the last 30 days on HCG only 500 IU 3x week. Total T moved up a bit to 330 and Free T went from 60 to 90. Unfortunately Estrogen went from 23 to 34. Going to try one month at 250 IU 5x a week, and if that doesn't do much, switch to clomid. Any thoughts?

Best you can do is to do 250iu hcg E2D forewer.
Deal with your estrodial.
At Quest Diagnostics do this test
Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
adjust your
FreeE2 (0.45 - 0.6)
use Liquidex on the other day, use insuline syringe with cut off needle to measure exactly.
Start with 0.25 - 0.3cc, that is 25 to 30 units
(but with current testing you do not know if you are high on E2, it may be close enough when you use the test I suggested)
----------------
Use this test
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
you should be at the top in BioAvailable

If you are missing
add injectable Testosterone (forever).

Before you start on injectable Testosterone take care of your thyroid.
Test FreeT3, add Armour Thyroid if low, get it to the top range.

Good luck.

 

[Pace2]

Thanks JanSz. I am taking synthroid for low thyroid. What is the reason if to switch to Armour?

 

[JanSz]

Thanks JanSz. I am taking synthroid for low thyroid. What is the reason if to switch to Armour?

If your FreeT3 is on the top of range with you using Synthroid,
then keep using Synthroid (T4).

Many people have a hard time to convert T4 ---> T3
That is why Armour works better for them.