Replacement of Armour with T4
- 09-18-2007, 05:45 PM
Replacement of Armour with T4
I am at 3.5 grains of Armour, that should put my FreeT3 at the top range
but my freeT4 will lag behind hence 1pill 25mcg/day of Synthroid.
I newer tried, I may be one of the lucky guys who convert T4-->T3
Latter after next blood test, I may want to get down on Armour and boost up Synthroid dose.
Looking for a formula on how to do it.
Assuming 3.5 Grains of Armour and 25mcg Synthroid keep FreeT3 and FreeT4 on top.
Assuming that I am able to fully convert T4--->T3 (per requirements of hormonal balace) how (without blood testing) figure my theoretical T4 dose that I would need in the absence of Armour.
I am guessing---not all externally supplied T4 converts to FreeT3 and FreeT4, there is reserve of T3 and T4,
I just do not have a handle on those details and could use help.
1grain of Armour = (T4)38mcg + (T3)9mcg
Smallest Synthroid(T4) pills 25mcg
3.5 grains of Armour contains 3.5*38=133mcg(T4)
that is 133/25=5.32 pills of 25mcgSynthroid.
How to account for the T3 content?
- 09-18-2007, 06:15 PM
Why not look for why your t3/t4 ratio is off? Often that means your adrenals are hit too hard. I have the same thing, but as the adrenals improve so does the ratio (just need to up the armour a little higher til t4 gets to top third). Also, check iodine to see if thats working right.
- 09-18-2007, 07:06 PM
I am assuming that when supplementing with Armour Thyroid one will always be short on FreeT4 because pigs have little less of T4 than humans. Hence, if one would like to have his FreeT4 on the top of range a little bit of Synthroid is need.
I do not have any deeper understanding of thyroid dynamics.
Could use some education.
I have some history of my thyroid numbers posted throuout of this board.
For now, if possible, the idea may stay more theoretical as stated on post #1 of this thread.
#1 max dose of Armour and supplemental dose of Synthroid is known. That dose causes FreeT3 and FreeT4 to be at the top range.
#2 miracle happened, patients actually is able to do T4-->T3 conversion, so he could use only Synthroid.
# how much Synthroid does he need to get again to max at Freet3 and FreeT4 (on Synthroid alone).
What is T3/T4 ratio, how to figure it out, what to do with it, what is proper ratio, how to make changes to that ratio.
09-18-2007, 07:57 PM
t3/t4 ratio is simply what the ideal (or even normal) ratio of t3 to t4 is in a healthy human. T3 is the active hormone, so if your t3 is top of range or even slightly above top, your pretty much fine.
everything i read suggests getting t4 to upper third/quarter or so, and trying to have t3 at the top of range or even slightly above (very slightly). I dont think there is any reason to add synthroid in unless you have a severely abnormal free t4/free t3 ratio...and then only if your extremely impateint. Ideally, you'd look to why that ratio is off, rather than just adjust it pharmacologically. damn, my spelling is bad tonight.
i think trying to get your free t4 perfectly at the top is nitpicky, and wont have any real effects on health.
09-18-2007, 09:49 PM
I don't think there is any strong reason to try and raise the T4level unless it is severely out of balance. There is a conversion chart I have that gives "equivalent" doses of synthroid to armour, but it is at work. If the T3 is where is should be and you don't have complaints I would not mess with it.
09-18-2007, 10:27 PM
so if your t3 is top of range
do you actually mean T3?
I thought the important is FreeT3
getting t4 to upper third/quarter or so, and trying to have t3 at the top of range
do you really mean T3 and T4?
I am thinking that way about FreeT3 and FreeT4
I am not nit picking, just trying to understand.
09-19-2007, 09:57 AM
im sorry for confusion...of course we mean free t3 and free t4. although i think checking totals at least once (if your hypothyroid) is not a bad idea....especially if your low it means some nutrient, most likely iodine, is missing.
But yes, we are concerned with FREE t3 and Free t4, I should have been more clear.
09-19-2007, 10:23 AM
Getting back to original idea of this thread.
(T4) (Synthroid) ------- half life=6-7 days
(T3)--------------------half life hours
When using Armour Thyroid we need to split dose 2-4 times thruout the day.
I see slight temperature fluctuations corresponding to my taking Armour 3x/day.
I am assuming that if I could tolerate Synthroid (T4) I would be more stable in my temperature.
I have no urgent complaints as is, just have Armour and Synthroid at my disposal and trying to use both to my best advantage.
Oct-06 (no thyroid medication used ever)
(TSH)=1.89 uIU/mL (0.350-5.5)
Free (T3=2.9 pg/mL (2.3-4.2)
Total T3=104 ng/dL (85-205)
Free T4(direct)=1.37ng/dL (0.61-1.76)
Apr-07 (on 4grains of Armour, note that FreeT4 is still low but FreeT3 is already over the top, after this test I backed to 3 grains)
T3 Free= 486 pg/dL (230-420)
T3 uptake= 36.3 % (22.0-35.0)
T3,Total= 165 ng/dL (60-181)
T4,Free= 1.6 ng/dL (0.8-1.8)
T4,Total= 10.2 ug/dL (4.5-12.0)
TSH= 0.01 (0.4-5.5)
Sep-07 (on 3 Grains of Armour, after this test I do 3.5grains of Armour and 25mcg Synthroid smallest availabe but it could be cut in half)
T3, Free= 363 (230-420) pg/dL
T4, Free= 1.0 (0.8-1-8) ng/dL
09-19-2007, 11:18 AM
a couple of q's. on april 07, what were your temps. and what were your symptoms?
Could be that your free t3 in the cells was much lower, but it was pooling in the blood due to low or inadequate cortisol levels. happened to me, although my free t3 was only near, not over the top (and free t4 was at like 1.2).
Looking at your sept 07...i think 3.5 grains is defiently better for you. I dont think there is anything wrong with the 25mcg of synthyroid, if the doc will give it to you and the insurance/cost is worth it. It might help stabilize temps, but then again, having the 'right' amount of armour, in your system for a while, will do the same...as will making sure the adrenals are well taken care of.
09-19-2007, 12:06 PM
I did not feel anything unusual (otherwise I would have lowered Armour).
I still had temperature fluctuations corelated with Armour taking.
Also my resting pulse was slightly higher.
Now I have times when my pulse is in 60's, it newer happened with 4grains.
Basically I would like to get pulse in 50's not sure how to go about it.
I am 67yo, 5'9", 165#, waist 33"
I am not as fit as I would like it to be, but I am in decent shape, so pulse in 50's should be obtainable (or at least consistently in low 60's).
My doc will give me just about anything, but he told me to be careful with Synthroid on top of Armour.
Bottom line, medicine is in my hand, I want to make what is the best for my health (long term).
09-19-2007, 08:24 PM
when i meant by symptoms, i meant...did you still feel hypo? And how do you get a solid grasp on thyroid levels if you dont have regular temp readings?
your pulse might be 'higher' simply because of aerobic conditioning levels. You may want to be in the 50's but that's 50's AFTER being in very good shape..not because your thyroid is a bit slow.
Temps. will ALWAYS fluctuate a bit with armour, because it releases t3 and t4, its your average temp. at midday that should be right around 98.6
My guess is that at 4 grains, you still were a little hypo (or jumped too quickly dosing scale) so that your free t3 was pushing the adrenals but the free t4 hadnt caught up yet.
either way, I dont think the way your going about it is all that problematic. maybe a little unnecessary but should be fine...if your free t4 starts going a bit higher and the free t3 is not up to par, then maybe re-evaluate. and your lucky to have a doc who is open to your approaches.
09-20-2007, 12:21 AM
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