Dr. John! Aromatization: Young guys are in the clear?

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    Dr. John! Aromatization: Young guys are in the clear?


    I have some questions for those with medical knowledge, or those who really know what they are talking about. All im saying is this my health and well being on the line, so there's no need to offer things you think may be true...

    1.) Percentage-wise, how many people do you think can use Testosterone injections, E3D, raising their Total Testosterone into the 800s-900s, and not need to use an aromatase inhibitor? In short, is it more likely that someone using T injections (no HCG involved for the sake of this thread) and not need some kind of AI?


    2.) The main thing im getting at is this: Older people tend to have high E2 levels before they begin TRT. I am only 22 years old, very in shape, and low bodyfat. My E2 when tested with low Total Testosterone (200-400ng/dl) was only 23. Surely my body was aromatizing correctly at the time, unlike most of the older, overweight folks out there.

    Now if I start using T injections wouldnt my body continue to only aromatize the neccesary amount, and put me back at around 23, give or take a few? I understand when going to very high physiological levels (ie. steroid cycles) increased E2 will occur, because this is superphysiological. I beleive my my E2 had to be decent before my TT levels dropped so low, because i was always horny and could easily get erections, NEVER had trouble, not even once (not to mention was alot stronger and bulkier, outgoing, etc). Now if my body kept healthy E2 levels from when I was "normal" 2 years ago, and then E2 stayed in a healthy range when I wasn't "normal" and had low T, is it safe to say using TRT won't make me need an AI?

    3.) When I used 50 of Test Cyp E3d starting out I was at E2=8 and TT=682. When I used 1.5mg of arimidex a week and 80 of test cyp e3d i was at TT=1797 E2=<2...

    I am now using 60mg of Test cyp e3d. and i started taking arimidex along with it.

    i did this because i have trouble with libido and sex drive. when i stopped the arimidex, i actually started getting morning wood with the help of cialis. someone told me to start taking arimidex once morning wood began so i did and now questioning all this again. note that i am only taking .3mg of arimidex e4d, so even if i dont have high levels i figured that small amount so infrequently wouldnt lower me alot. arimidex seems to have diminishing returns the higher the dose you use.

    should i just stop with the arimidex, wait 2 weeks for it to clear my system and get a blood test? or do i need to give it more time than 15 days to feel its effects (this would mean that .3mg e4d is reasonable for me to take)?

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    Others here are more knowledgeable than me, but IMHO:

    Everyone is different. I think the % that need the AI would be interesting to know, but won't correlate with you necessarily.

    I think the collective wisdom would say to do the T only, then measure T, E2 and the other values.

    If your E2 is under control then don't medicate it. Also some E2 is desirable. You don't want to be below the range either.

    Also FWIW TT 1800 is way above scale.

    Mark
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    yeah well i had a rating of 682 at 100mg a week and 1797 at 150mg a week + arimidex...so i figure 120mg is a nice tweener eh?

    and what im really trying to learn is just general, applicable to anyone knowledge. not so much dealing with my specific case....

    like if my body regulated my natural low T level's aromatization, does that mean when i use TRT that it will continue to properly regulate my aromatization then as well? like with 400 TT and 23 E2, once i started TRT and got to 800 TT would my E2 be 23-ish still?

    or is aromatization not dynamic "intelligent" effect, as in, 23 E2 is what my body makes from 400 TT. and 800 TT will bring me to 46 E2 (obviously not exactly, but you get the idea im trying to get accross).
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    Quote Originally Posted by FOXDIE View Post
    yeah well i had a rating of 682 at 100mg a week and 1797 at 150mg a week + arimidex...so i figure 120mg is a nice tweener eh?

    and what im really trying to learn is just general, applicable to anyone knowledge. not so much dealing with my specific case....

    like if my body regulated my natural low T level's aromatization, does that mean when i use TRT that it will continue to properly regulate my aromatization then as well? like with 400 TT and 23 E2, once i started TRT and got to 800 TT would my E2 be 23-ish still?

    or is aromatization not dynamic "intelligent" effect, as in, 23 E2 is what my body makes from 400 TT. and 800 TT will bring me to 46 E2 (obviously not exactly, but you get the idea im trying to get accross).
    what is your SHBG?
    Have you ever checked other than E2 estrogens, post results.
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    From what I can tell aromatization tends to increase as the testosterone level goes up. I would say they the majority of men on TRT will need an AI if they are taking T levels to 800-900 (my guess is 80% or more, but that % is purely guess). More T is generally going to lead to more E2.
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    I see that you are rushing things. I saw Dr Shippen yesterday and he told me if you do injection right (schedule / dosage) , younger men won't need any AI. Also T injections are his last choice for younger men. According to him , he tries to recover HPT axis in younger men with a SERM , if that fails then it's HCG. If everything else fails then it's T with HCG. However , as all of us know here ED/libido are not totally T related. Shippen also finds out during his SERM/HCG protocol then if ED/libido are caused by low T. So you have to look at various things work on them step by step. This is your body , don't do guess work or you will regeret later.


    On another note , yes your E will increase as you inject T in your body. How much ? No one but your genes know. Your best bet is a good doctor and step by step methodical approach driven by blood work.
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    i always thought serm's dealt with estrogens. my estrogen levels were never high, even before TRT and after. i also thought that dr. john crisler as well as others have stated that hcg or estrogen manipulation wasn't proper TRT, and that results were only felt truly with the addition of testosteorne AND hcg/serm/ai/etc.

    also why would he try and use a serm? then hcg? on young men? why would the approach be different then that of with an adult?

    and thanks for pointing out that he believes healthy younger men on a good doage scheudle will not need an AI. now i am quite resolved to quit taking any AI for at least a month, stabilize at 60mg of Tcyp e3d, and then do extensive blood testing. from there i can work further.

    and as far as libido goes, i had libido before my T went so low. thats cause my e2 was in a good range i assume. i just had trouble getting erections. now i have relativley little problem getting erections, and with cialis virtually no problem. i just dont ever ever ever feel horny. i never get erections or a rush in my body/brain seeing a hot girl or having her leg brush mine, etc etc. i havent had a sex dream in over a year. even when i had low T, my libido was good and i had sex dreams constantly. i now rarely think about sex throughout the day. i used to all the time.

    so i think that as a fit, young man i should just stop messing with my e2 and let things pan out.


    thanks!

    i must note that my t3 and t4 are not in the upper 1/4 but in the upper 1/3 so i can improve on that. my temps arent a constant 98.6 so my dosage should be increased, but of course my current doc, she doesnt want to because she feels im well within healthy range, and that any more will send me over the range....whatever. i always thought getting my temps to 98.6 was important....my temps now peak out at 98.1 and can go as low as 97-96.8

    i also must note that i have ulcerative colitis, which was the first thing to go in my body...shortly after i was diagnosed with low T and low thyroid....colitis is pretty much in remission though, so i wouldnt believe this is a huge factor right now...

    i also am taking wellbutrin xl...it increases dopamine, which makes me generally feel better, more driven, and "loving". it also affects serotonin and norepenephrine but if you go to a!skapatient.co!m and read up on it youll find that almost EVERY man and woman has increased sex drive, sexual thoughts, etc etc...so i figure if i hit my right e2 range, the wellbutrin and cialias will amplify any changes and let me really see where its good and where its not...

    thanks to all, and sorry i have so much going on in my situation. sorry i post so much. sorry i try and change so much at once. but its hard being in your early 20's and having multiple significant health problems, and i just wanna be my "old" self again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FOXDIE View Post
    i always thought serm's dealt with estrogens. my estrogen levels were never high, even before TRT and after. i also thought that dr. john crisler as well as others have stated that hcg or estrogen manipulation wasn't proper TRT, and that results were only felt truly with the addition of testosteorne AND hcg/serm/ai/etc.

    also why would he try and use a serm? then hcg? on young men? why would the approach be different then that of with an adult?

    and thanks for pointing out that he believes healthy younger men on a good doage scheudle will not need an AI. now i am quite resolved to quit taking any AI for at least a month, stabilize at 60mg of Tcyp e3d, and then do extensive blood testing. from there i can work further.

    and as far as libido goes, i had libido before my T went so low. thats cause my e2 was in a good range i assume. i just had trouble getting erections. now i have relativley little problem getting erections, and with cialis virtually no problem. i just dont ever ever ever feel horny. i never get erections or a rush in my body/brain seeing a hot girl or having her leg brush mine, etc etc. i havent had a sex dream in over a year. even when i had low T, my libido was good and i had sex dreams constantly. i now rarely think about sex throughout the day. i used to all the time.

    so i think that as a fit, young man i should just stop messing with my e2 and let things pan out.


    thanks!

    i must note that my t3 and t4 are not in the upper 1/4 but in the upper 1/3 so i can improve on that. my temps arent a constant 98.6 so my dosage should be increased, but of course my current doc, she doesnt want to because she feels im well within healthy range, and that any more will send me over the range....whatever. i always thought getting my temps to 98.6 was important....my temps now peak out at 98.1 and can go as low as 97-96.8

    i also must note that i have ulcerative colitis, which was the first thing to go in my body...shortly after i was diagnosed with low T and low thyroid....colitis is pretty much in remission though, so i wouldnt believe this is a huge factor right now...

    i also am taking wellbutrin xl...it increases dopamine, which makes me generally feel better, more driven, and "loving". it also affects serotonin and norepenephrine but if you go to a!skapatient.co!m and read up on it youll find that almost EVERY man and woman has increased sex drive, sexual thoughts, etc etc...so i figure if i hit my right e2 range, the wellbutrin and cialias will amplify any changes and let me really see where its good and where its not...

    thanks to all, and sorry i have so much going on in my situation. sorry i post so much. sorry i try and change so much at once. but its hard being in your early 20's and having multiple significant health problems, and i just wanna be my "old" self again.
    I am little bit uncertain when 98.6F=37C is mentioned as the desirable temperature.
    Where I am comming from, it was usualy beginning of cold of flu.

    I always though that the proper is 36.6C=97.88F ~ 97.9

    I am from Poland, I still use Celsius for body temp.
    Since childhood until couple years ago my temperature was always 36.6C=97.88F when in healthy state.

    Then it falled to about 35.6C=96.08F

    Now on Armour it is mostly 36.5C=97.7F

    I was following my body temp when ramping up on Armour and ended on 4grains.
    I newer reached 98.6F=37C but my pulse was often over 80, so I stopped at 4 grains, waiting for blood test.
    That turned out to be too much, since blood test have shown FreeT3 over the top of range.
    ============================== ============================== ==========
    Little study on body temperatures.

    Temperature of a Healthy Human (Body Temperature)
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    Quote Originally Posted by FOXDIE View Post
    i always thought serm's dealt with estrogens. my estrogen levels were never high, even before TRT and after
    SERMs don't manipulate estrogen levels they manipulate extrogen receptors in brain (hypothyalamus) . SERMs block those receptors fooling hypothylamus in to believing that there is no T in the body and if your pitutarty and testicles are healthy . You make more T naturally. SERMs are not advised long term as they can cause impotence and low libido. It is generally used as infertility treatment for women and a method to shock HPTA axis fo men by anti gaing doctors.


    . i also thought that dr. john crisler as well as others have stated that hcg or estrogen manipulation wasn't proper TRT, and that results were only felt truly with the addition of testosteorne AND hcg/serm/ai/etc.

    also why would he try and use a serm? then hcg? on young men? why would the approach be different then that of with an adult?
    Olderman dont have a healthy hypothyalmus , thats why . It goes down with age


    a nd thanks for pointing out that he believes healthy younger men on a good doage scheudle will not need an AI

    I said generally. It's not so black and white . Bloodwork is the only way to know.

    now i am quite resolved to quit taking any AI for at least a month, stabilize at 60mg of Tcyp e3d, and then do extensive blood testing. from there i can work further.

    and as far as libido goes, i had libido before my T went so low. thats cause my e2 was in a good range i assume. i just had trouble getting erections. now i have relativley little problem getting erections, and with cialis virtually no problem. i just dont ever ever ever feel horny. i never get erections or a rush in my body/brain seeing a hot girl or having her leg brush mine, etc etc. i havent had a sex dream in over a year. even when i had low T, my libido was good and i had sex dreams constantly. i now rarely think about sex throughout the day. i used to all the time.

    so i think that as a fit, young man i should just stop messing with my e2 and let things pan out.


    thanks!

    i must note that my t3 and t4 are not in the upper 1/4 but in the upper 1/3 so i can improve on that. my temps arent a constant 98.6 so my dosage should be increased, but of course my current doc, she doesnt want to because she feels im well within healthy range, and that any more will send me over the range....whatever. i always thought getting my temps to 98.6 was important....my temps now peak out at 98.1 and can go as low as 97-96.8

    i also must note that i have ulcerative colitis, which was the first thing to go in my body...shortly after i was diagnosed with low T and low thyroid....colitis is pretty much in remission though, so i wouldnt believe this is a huge factor right now...

    i also am taking wellbutrin xl...it increases dopamine, which makes me generally feel better, more driven, and "loving". it also affects serotonin and norepenephrine but if you go to a!skapatient.co!m and read up on it youll find that almost EVERY man and woman has increased sex drive, sexual thoughts, etc etc...so i figure if i hit my right e2 range, the wellbutrin and cialias will amplify any changes and let me really see where its good and where its not...

    thanks to all, and sorry i have so much going on in my situation. sorry i post so much. sorry i try and change so much at once. but its hard being in your early 20's and having multiple significant health problems, and i just wanna be my "old" self again.

    Don't we all. I am only 32 and struggling with all this **** . Understand this is not a perfect science , these docs only try what is known and it is not a guarnteed solution. You are young , wait , try to live a goos life see things improve . If not you will always have TRT as an option.
    see above
  

  
 

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