"AGELESS" update

[AGELESS]

My rejuvenation clinic passed me on to one of their new Doctors. My first visit with him we only talked, no physical exam. My first visit with him I felt fine…Life was GREAT!

He ordered a blood test - results showed to be somewhere near 1000 for total test. (3 days after 150 MG enanthate) I never saw a copy of that test result ...so I’m only going by what he said.

He then cut me off all testosterone - put me on HCG and Arimidex for 45 days. (see enclosed prescripts, paying close attention to the directions….) He said I am going to get you off your “testosterone rollercoaster” ride.

He was right about the “ride“…but it was straight down.
After 45 days...I cant describe how depressed, tired, no libido, and generally just not give a damn about anything.

He then ordered a new blood test (results attached) and checked my adrenals with a 24 hour salvia test. (results attached)

He told me my Cortisol & DHEA was bottom-line and that was why I was not producing testosterone in the first place.

Somehow I felt it was the other way around, as a drop from 1000 to 66 in 45 days might just be a shock to my system.

My last conversation with this DR. after these results - he put me on 10 mg tabs of hydrocortisone and 100mg of enanthate per week. Told me to take the 1st tab at 7am, I told him I don’t get up til 9am….he told me to start getting up earlier….and hell its hard enough to get up at 9am. He says the tabs and getting up at 7am will give me more energy…wtf.

As you can see by this post I am not really happy - I don’t claim to know more than a DR, but I did feel good when I went to see him and 45 days later I felt like crap…and I dropped nearly 20 lbs. (also did not go to the gym…what for??)

I don’t blame the Dr’s, in my opinion it is the laws that are preventing DR’s from practicing medicine like they see fit….just because of a few people abusing medications. Dr’s are so afraid to prescribe any injectable test these days due to the current events in the news.

I think my Drs intentions were valid…but…my only argument was that I have been on testosterone injections for over 3 years. My testicles may never do a job for me. (let me see….63 yr old man with blueberry sized testicles…hmmmm)

I told him I don’t need large testicles they only get in my way and I already have 4 children.

After the 45 days he has put me through just so I can look good in the hot tub is not worth it to me. (only a depressed 63 yr old man can say that) LOL


I am now back on 150 mg of enanthate and arimidex 1.5 mg twice a week.

I’m back in the gym 3 days a week and working hard to get back all that I lost. I do feel better now…but still a little bitter about my last DR experiment.

Questions and comments welcome….

[Jayhawkk]

Glad you're still chugging along man. You'll probably have to go through the roller coaster ride with the doc so he can be safe in his practice by saying he did the full approach prior to getting you on injections of the levels you were at. My guess anyways.

[Scottyo]

dont knock the adrenal diagnosis...I think there is a LOT of truth with adrenals lowering proper testosterone. But I think your DOC was CRAZY to lower your TEST before doing HCG DURING to get your boys working if he wanted to try to take you off the test.

And if your testicles didnt get any larger while using a proper HCG, then at least that proves that you definetly need to stay on the test for life.

[dcguy4u]

What do you mean by testosterone rollercoaster ride ? Did HRT not give you consistent mood , libido , energy and all that it's supposed to do ?

[AGELESS]

Glad you're still chugging along man. You'll probably have to go through the roller coaster ride with the doc so he can be safe in his practice by saying he did the full approach prior to getting you on injections of the levels you were at. My guess anyways.

I agree with you Jay, he had to cover his ass before giving me any medications. Now I think I'm on the right track.

[AGELESS]

What do you mean by testosterone rollercoaster ride ? Did HRT not give you consistent mood , libido , energy and all that it's supposed to do ?

I dont know what he meant by a "rollercoaster" either...I was just fine on my current meds....there is no rollercoaster ride when you keep your numbers on the top peg.

[hardasnails1973]

What was the e2 level while on 150 mgs a week. 3mgs of armidex is lucidcrous .5 EOD would be plenty in many cases. My freind went to one of these guys in florda told him to take 200 mgs of testosterone a week with 1/2 pill armidex every 3 days with out even measuring his estrogen levels. then told him to take 2 ius of gh 5 days on 2 off when they never even confirmed his gh levels. I belive 1000 is perfect depending on where your e2 is in relationship to it. I mean e2 of 40-50 is fine with t level of 1000 depending on where shbg is. If shbg is low then e2 needs to be lower if its higher then e2 can be higher usually I like to see shbg about 1:1 ratio with e2, or possible find out what other hormone abnormalities are affecting it.

[pmgamer18]

Hi Ageless never let a Dr. do this to you again I have gone through this crap 7 times in the last 23 yrs and all they ever found out was how sick they made me.

I am also 63 and next to you I look like a sumo wrestler. But this is a different story.

I feel your Cortisol levels are bad going off TRT will not change this are you still on the HC. I have a pituitary problem due to a head injury. I need to support my Testis, Adrenals, Thyroid and more do to this.

Here is a FAQ's about low Cortisol and DHEA did he test your Thyriod.
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info/faq/

If I were you don't test your testosterone after 3 days of a shot your getting your peck levels do it before the next one. It's going down to low that makes us feel bad. I am betting your levels at the day of your next shot are about 650 to 700.

Anyway when you get leveled again retest all of this.

Plus doing 10 mgs a day of HC don't support your adrenals enough to let them heal.
And if you were not on Arimidex before you seen this Dr. don't take it you will go down to low and this is just as bad as to high.

[JanSz]

My rejuvenation clinic passed me on to one of their new Doctors. My first

visit with him we only talked, no physical exam. My first visit with him I felt fine…Life was GREAT!

He ordered a blood test - results showed to be somewhere near 1000 for total test. (3 days after 150

MG enanthate) I never saw a copy of that test result ...so I’m only going by what he said.

He then cut me off all testosterone - put me on HCG and Arimidex for 45 days. (see enclosed

prescripts, paying close attention to the directions….) He said I am going to get you off your

“testosterone rollercoaster” ride.

He was right about the “ride“…but it was straight down.
After 45 days...I cant describe how depressed, tired, no libido, and generally just not give a damn about

anything.

He then ordered a new blood test (results attached) and checked my adrenals with a 24 hour salvia test.

(results attached)

He told me my Cortisol & DHEA was bottom-line and that was why I was not producing testosterone in

the first place.

Somehow I felt it was the other way around, as a drop from 1000 to 66 in 45 days might just be a shock

to my system.

My last conversation with this DR. after these results - he put me on 10 mg tabs of hydrocortisone and

100mg of enanthate per week. Told me to take the 1st tab at 7am, I told him I don’t get up til 9am….he

told me to start getting up earlier….and hell its hard enough to get up at 9am. He says the tabs and

getting up at 7am will give me more energy…wtf.

As you can see by this post I am not really happy - I don’t claim to know more than a DR, but I did feel

good when I went to see him and 45 days later I felt like crap…and I dropped nearly 20 lbs. (also did

not go to the gym…what for??)

I don’t blame the Dr’s, in my opinion it is the laws that are preventing DR’s from practicing medicine like

they see fit….just because of a few people abusing medications. Dr’s are so afraid to prescribe any

injectable test these days due to the current events in the news.

I think my Drs intentions were valid…but…my only argument was that I have been on testosterone

injections for over 3 years. My testicles may never do a job for me. (let me see….63 yr old man with

blueberry sized testicles…hmmmm)

I told him I don’t need large testicles they only get in my way and I already have 4 children.

After the 45 days he has put me through just so I can look good in the hot tub is not worth it to me. (only

a depressed 63 yr old man can say that) LOL


I am now back on 150 mg of enanthate and arimidex 1.5 mg twice a week.

I’m back in the gym 3 days a week and working hard to get back all that I lost. I do feel better now…but

still a little bitter about my last DR experiment.

Questions and comments welcome….

Glad that your experiment is over.
Hopefuly you will not let another doctor screw you up again, no mather his good intentions.
63yo, and good looking should not be put thru s-hit like that.
When you feel real good you may want to do complete blood test as on post #44
Jan's BloodTest April13/2007

If you have long blood test from the time you felt good, but before this experiment, please post it.

Have you looked at your thyroid?
Looks like you should do little more checking on your adrenals.
When you were feeling good you were not using hydrocortizone, right? Possibly do not use it now.
When testing adrenals you should not be on hydrocortizone or Cortef.

While using testosterone injections, preferably, you should be also using HCG, so do not stop it now.

Your E2=22
is measured using "wrong" test.
Use "ultrasensitive" if you can.
You may want to consider changing to E3D schedule with
Testosterone
HCG
Arimidex (Liquidex)
all at the same time, I use 31ga 3/10cc 5/16" long needle for both T&hcg and both are SubQ shots.


Your SHBG=16 is rather low, some people with low SHBG feel better on more frequent shots.

You may want to consider changing to Liquidex, much less expensive than Arimidex, much easier to

measure.
If you change to E3D and use 0.5cc=1/2pill Arimidex
you will have slightly lower weekly dose than current 1.5pill/week
0.5*7/3=1.167
You probably could use couple ticks higher e2.

Going by dr Shippen's chart that is on my post #41 (link as above)
you want to have
FreeT~250
with your
SHBG=16
you need
TotalT~800
to accomplish that
post#40 (link as above) tells that you need weekly dose of approximately 105mg/week

Your current dose of 150mg/week may be too large.
Watch your SHBG on next tests. Lower your Test dose if it gets any lower.
Do not use any SHBG lowering supplements.

If your current T dose:
makes you feel good,
does not lower your SHBG,
you are able to keep your E2 at right level,
then there is no need to change it.
Keep in mind that you are about 40% over the T dose that you really need.

The dr Shippens chart is the one I use to figure out FreeT levels and gage test dosing.
FreeT tests are usually not good, except if you can get the one on my list, done at Quest.
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
Quest does similar tests that are not good either.

Your DHT=12 is pathetic (on blood test with run down T levels)
hopefuly will go up to proper range.
If it stays low (and bothers you) you may want to either totaly or partially change to transdermal Test

applications.
Androgel is good at rising DHT levels, in a bind, may be applied to scrotum.
Again, when you get your numbers when you have good test levels all that DHT story may get better, so

do not worry now.

If you could swing it, best blood test is done at Quest Diagnostics, blood drawn at Quest.
On my blood test list (post #44) the bottom of the list #'s 60-75
it is important that the names and numbers are requested on a script,
that will assure that the tests done are the lattest and most accurate and done at San Juan Capistrano

location.
I had partial test done last Friday.
I e-mailed my request for blood test to my doctor.
The e-mail contained items that I want to have tested and ICD-9 codes.
To make a script he just copied the list on his office stationary and handed me that and a script with

"Blood Test" words and his signature.
I breezed thru at the lab, no problems.
I make an effort to use my doctors time only for important discussions and save his time as much as I

am able with mundane tasks.
I did used the same way with my previous doctor. Except that the previus one was good only for blood

tests and Androgel.
In case you want to use it, here is my last script for blood test that I just had it done:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copper, serum
Ferritin
C-reactive protein CRP
Fibrinogen
Hematocrit
Hemoglobin A1C
Homocysteine, cardio
Lipoprotein (A) Lp(A)
T3, Free
T4, Free
Aldosterone
DHEA sulfate
Prolactin
Progesterone, LC/MS/MS
Pregnenolone
Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
Estrogens, Fractionated, LC/MS/MS (36742X)
Estrogen, Total, Serum (439X)
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
Dihydrotestosterone, Free, Serum (36168X)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
ICD-9 codes

257.2 Other testicular hypofunction
272.4 Other and unspecified hyperlipidemia
601.9 Prostatitis unspecified
780.4 Dizziness and giddiness
780.79 Other malaise and fatigue
788.41 Urinary frequency
253.3 Adult Onset Growth Hormone Deficiency
255.8 Other specified disorders of adrenal glands
253.3 Adult Onset Growth Hormone Deficiency
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
============================== ============================== ================
At some time you may want to check your Hydroxyestrones.
There is three of them 2, 4, 16 and also ratio 2/16.
Test can be done at RheinLabs.com
or
Genova Diagnostics, (your Cortisol test was done there).
http://www.gdx.net/home/assessments/...nce/Index.html
also other good tests.
http://www.gdx.net/home/images/repor...opausalHRT.pdf
http://www.gdx.net/images/reportpdf/...olismSerum.pdf


The current wisdom says Rhein Labs
but
looking at their web site and talking with mu doc (very little)
I may go with Genova.
Specially that next time I see him, wee wil talk about test he want me to do at Genova
Metabolic Oxidative Profile.
Do not know much about it yet.
But I am 67yo and look for any little edge I can get.
.
.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[plymouth city]

Ageless

This experience is why I so against aging clinics and their various offshoots. There is way to much inconsistency.

So how did you talk him back into previous regimine?

Or are you taking things into your own hands?

I don't necessarily disagree with his assertions about low dhea and treating adrenals/cortisol, but guess what? that was something that should have been done in the first place BEFORE exogenous T was administered. Its to late now, your on T, and should stay on it. Not that their is anything wrong with that, but Im just saying.

[AAA]

That sounds like a lot arimidex although I am not a Dr.......then again, mybe I could be compared to your new Dr.!

[AGELESS]

Wow..the best of the best have come to my rescue. I don't know who to thank and answer first.

Let me say this...I did stay off the testosterone for over 45 days like my Dr. suggested, but the arimidex...get this...he told me 1 mg per day. The pharmacy sent me 30 1.5 mg tab...I questioned him about the 1.5mg and told him no way. Thats way too much arimidex. He said it was a screw up and sorry.

Bottom like I took what I thought "I" needed. I must have been right on...my test showed 22. Thats right where I want to be...now if I can get the testosterone E-2 ratio right.

[jomi822]

I do not understand why he took you off the testosterone in the first place. After being on for 3 years at the age of 63, what possible good could have come from yanking you off your weekly injection.

There was no roller coaster prior to his tampering. He really fouled up with yanking you off your testosterone injections.

And probably delivered a hell of a shock to your pituitary/adrenals/thyroid as well. Testosterone, especially when used over long periods of time, has a dramatic effect on cortisol, thyroid hormones, and various neurotransmitters. Im quite beside myself that your doctor would do such a stupid thing, for any reason.

[hardasnails1973]

I do not understand why he took you off the testosterone in the first place. After being on for 3 years at the age of 63, what possible good could have come from yanking you off your weekly injection.

There was no roller coaster prior to his tampering. He really fouled up with yanking you off your testosterone injections.

And probably delivered a hell of a shock to your pituitary/adrenals/thyroid as well. Testosterone, especially when used over long periods of time, has a dramatic effect on cortisol, thyroid hormones, and various neurotransmitters. Im quite beside myself that your doctor would do such a stupid thing, for any reason.

Very true it shocked the crap out of your adrenals and probably sent them high at first then crashing in just a matter of a few weeks and probably spun your thyroid into total chaos as well. I too do not like these antiaging clinics. They push test as high as they can get and off set it with arimdex some time ridiculous amounts as you previously mentioned. For god sakes palumbo takes 200 mgs a week for t replacement , but also remember he is a chemical whiz and probably one of the smartest men in the business so he knows how to monitor things. The average joe has to rely on drs and does not know the difference between what is right and what is wrong untill they get sicker and then blame it on stress LOL When I used to goto drs and telling me some thing and I was like WTF is this guy talking about and then I would return with clinical studys done explaining what they told me was incorrect. Drs will never bull shhit me again thats for sure.

Plymouth and I are pretty much in agreement 90% of the time

[jomi822]

i no longer trust doctors at all. My advice to everyone going to an endocrinologist is having your research printed out and take it with you. i cannot even begin to make a list of idiotic things i have heard come out of doctors' mouths during my own consultations.