persistent side effect of finasterid extreme low libido
- 08-28-2007, 06:40 AM
persistent side effect of finasterid extreme low libido
Hi. I'm 28 years old and I'm from Slovakia (It is in Europe). I'm sorry my English is not good but I'll try. I'm off finasterid for 6 years and I still have side effects. I used it oraly. When I stopped oral administration (1mg/day during one year) because of side effect (depression) I started with homemade alcoholic solution of finasterid and dutasterid. Daily topical dose contained 100mcg of finasterid and 30 mcg dutasterid (for hair this was more effective than oral administration of finasterid) but here occured my problem. Depression went away but my sexual life too. I was taking topical solution for 3 months and in this time my libido died totaly. Now I take nothing for 6 years. During 6 years no improve in my libido (I'm nearly asexual). I tried everything (Testosteron replacement, ginseng, siberian ginseng, rhodiola, leuzea, tribulus, multivitamins, mesterolon as a DHT replacement, piracetam for nerves regeneration, sport, walking) but no improve. I have extreme low libido, my erection is weak, I suffer premature ejaculation. I lost all my girlfriends and now I'm totally alone for 6 years. My hormonal profile (testosterone, prolactin, LH, FSH, thyroid hormone) is ok thus all sexologist said that I'm Ok but I'm not. I need girlfriend for my emotional life but Girls dont want me because of I hate sex. I wish to have family but I can't reach this . PLS Can somebody help me?
- 08-28-2007, 08:09 AM
- 08-28-2007, 08:46 AM
08-28-2007, 02:08 PM
What tests I need??? I was tested for testosteron, tyroxin, prolactin, FSH, LH all were in normal range. Did you mean a complete blood test???
08-28-2007, 02:19 PM
in the mean time post everything you have on record, as jan said units, ranges, etc
08-28-2007, 02:22 PM
08-29-2007, 04:25 AM
Doctors have all my test results I have no one at home. Only one result I have home is (TST 18.3, PRL 5.9 FSH 2.8 LH 4.87) but there are no units ;( . I need to be tested again (full blood test and hormonal test). And I thank that you try to help me. And sorry for my bad english
08-29-2007, 07:41 AM
08-29-2007, 01:38 PM
Ok I'll go to my doctor. I need new test because nobody measured me DHT, SHBG or free testosteron. Are there any drugs or suplemments I should try? I was taking Jamieson Siberian and Korean ginseng and tribullus, yohimbin, and rhodiola.
08-29-2007, 04:20 PM
08-29-2007, 07:02 PM
You did not mention estrogen/estradiol (E). Elevated E can make block the effects of even high testosterone levels.
We use different lab units here and this might be a problem. When you get copies of your lab work, post units and lab ranges as well.
For estradiol (E2), it would look something like this here:
Estrodiol 37 pg/ml (0-53)
Always obtain and keep copies of your lab work!!!
Drugs that reduce DHT are known to have severe effects in some cases and ongoing problems have been reported here. DHT is important!!! and not just a hair loss issue.
With a range of E2 of 0-53 pg/ml, 17-20 is known to optimal for libido. For me, with TRT, my T was very high and my E2=37. I started arimidex/anastrozole at 1mg/week and E2 dropped to 22 and life improved greatly.
Suggest TRT at 100mg/wk of testosterone cypionate or ethanate, 250iu HCG SQ/SC EOD and 1mg/wk (in divided doses) Arimidex/anastrozole. This would be a good start and adjustments can be made from there after lab work.
Will you have a problem getting a doctor to try the above?
Injections are not bad, you can inject the HCG and the T with small insulin syringes. More info on that if you need that... PM me any time.
The HCG will help maintain your testicles or restore them. Many also report an improvement in mood with HCG.
Your english is very good!
08-30-2007, 03:00 AM
I can't go to doctor now because I'm using testosteron (250mg/2weeks - testosteron mix 30mg-propionas, 60mg phenylpropionas,60mgisocaproas , 100mg decanoas) I also have american cypionate but testosteron mix- sustanon is a better choice. My using of testosteron would affect test results that is why I have to wait some time for balancing my hormonal levels. I asked my doctor to measure me estradiol and DHT but he said that it is irrelevant because high levels of DHT or Estradiols decrease total testosteron and that testosteron is determinant. Aridimex is not registered here in Slovakia even Black market. But I could try for example clomifene citrat (clomid) or tamoxifen. And yes you are right finasterid is great risk but at that time I was using it, his developer asserted it is very safe (6 percent side effects only and all reversible).
08-30-2007, 08:35 AM
#2. Without blood tests I cannot comment much on your Sustenon-250 use or Cypionate, other than your
dose 250mg/2week looks reasoneble.
Your dosing frequency is not good, change to E3D, every three days.
You should also use HCG, 250iu - 500iu on same days as T (E3D)
Other people may argue about amount and schedule.
Important is to use it, otherwise you testis will atrophy.
#3. Because your main problem is prior finasteride use, your symptoms are wery likely due to low DHT. Testosterone injection have a small efect on DHT. Transdermal testosterone is raising DHT level, for that reason for most men it is forbiden to put Tcream or Tgel on scrotal area.
When you find out your actual DHT level, you may have to switch to transdermal testosterone.
Depending on your DHT level, if it is real low, you may have to apply it to your scrotal area for highest boost.
Gell applied to larger area will increase DHT more.
You may have to use Androgel.
I used to use Androgel and it worked real well, raising my testosterone and DHT levels. (Well, I do not need DHT that much).
#3 To have a chance at any success with all your curent and future hormonal manipulations, you have to have blood tests.The blood test list that I posted is best that I know of, so always go there for additional tests.
Now, this is your minimum list
#4 you need to know your estradiol levels, if your Testoserone and DHT is in right place, wrong E2 levels will cause loss of erections. If you have E2 at the right level, many people still need Cialis to get erection. Use 2 pills weekly, if for no other reason then just to exercise your pines, it can go bad when lies long without erections.
#5 do not use Clomid or Nolva. You can get over internet LiqiDex, it is liqid Arimidex, I like it better because of ease of dosing. I use 0.5cc/E3D on same days as my T&hcg shots.
08-30-2007, 09:01 AM
08-30-2007, 03:16 PM
My doctor does not know that I'm using testosteron now. I was at 3 sexologists all of them said that my hormonal levels was ok and that I was healthy. One of them said that it is psychological problem. But no one of them told me what I can do with my low libido. That is why I'm trying to heal by myself. I don't trust doctors because any of them never helped me. I'm going to try 1.androgel or my own mixture of testosteron enantat and DHT enanthat 2. bromocriptine (therapeutical dose) ... 3. clomifen 50 mg/day after cycle. I realy don't know what other could help me. Any doctor can't describe me anything else for my libido.
08-30-2007, 04:14 PM
Please note that aromatase inhibitors (AI) reduced estrogen levels. SERMs like clomid lead to increased estrogen levels while blocking the action of estrogen selectively in some tissues such as breast and hypothalamus/pituitary. Clomid does have some side effects, nolvadex would be a better choice.
While a SERM does have some benefits, note that the elevated E will have actions on other tissues.
Using SERMs for TRT (forever) does not seem to be the best plan.
Note that the amount of anastrozole that you would need would be 1.0 - 1.5 mg/wk while clomid at 350mg/wk can be expected to have some side effects driven by this larger amount of drug.
SERM's are estrogen like chemicals and the can have estrogenic side effects... some guys get very emotional in a female sort of way.
I think that you can doing a SERM, but be looking to obtain anastrozole for the long term. You can get these things, but it depends on how easily things come into your country by mail.
08-31-2007, 01:51 AM
And what about DHT or mesterolon? They both decrease aromatase level and increase level of 5 alfa reductase. I afraid to order aridimex from black market because a lot of things in black market are fakes.
08-31-2007, 08:18 AM
I use it, it is liquid Arimidex.
It is easir to live with because doce can be measured accurately with insuline syringe.
Sponsor of the other board is selling it. among other products.
08-31-2007, 12:00 PM
08-31-2007, 12:06 PM
DHT and mesterolon and such do not reduce aromatase. They have less or no ability to be automatized compared to testosterone and other aromatizing steroids. So there are less aromatization effects.
Some of these reduce the effects of SHBG by saturating the SHBG, but SHBG is not reduced.
09-01-2007, 03:48 AM
Ok. I'm going to order aromataze inhibitor (1 mg per week it will be my dose). So all together testosteron mix 250mg/2 weeks and aromataze inhibitor 1mg per week. Are there other suggestions to improve my libido?
09-01-2007, 04:00 AM
09-01-2007, 04:38 AM
I'm really not sure about it. My theory is that one year's use of finasterid changed estrogen testosteron and DHT in my brain irreversibly because low DHT level decreases 5 alfa reductase and increases level od aromataze. After withdrawal of finasterid 5 alfa reductase level can't be correctly restore because of the excess of aromatase. Excess of aromatase equals excess of estrogenic compounds which decrease 5 alfa reductase level and promote level of aromatase (it is vicious circle). This all is the better case. The worst case is the increased level of estorgens and decreased level of DHT in the brain caused irreversible changes in brain cells (gynecomastia is irrevesible too) changing male brain cells to female brain cells in some part of the brain. In addition 5 alfa reductase transform not only testosterone to DHT but also progesteron and other steroid hormones hence the irreversible damage can be more complex. Finasterid and dutasterid also are really for some people dangerous drugs and decrease quality of life. For example When I was taking it I had really bad depression (suicide was really close).
09-01-2007, 04:47 AM
Wow Genisis, thats a pretty full on theory youve got there about the brain cells.....is that even possible?
I know what you mean about the depression, but mine kicked in only after I stopped taking it. There is not a day that goes by since where suicide has not been a serious option. Like you said, qualitly of life is severly compromised. The stuff doesnt KILL you, it just really screws you up, which I think is worse.
The thing with the finasteride problems are that even when guys have their hormones returned to normal and even finely tuned, some still dont recover...so what the hell is it?
09-01-2007, 05:15 AM
I have been studying pharmacology, medicine and genetics since my fourteen. There is only thing I can surely say. All doctors or medicine developers know really very very little about how the body work and how the drugs affect the body systems. Doctors these days are more dangerous as condition itself (actually not doctors but drugs they prescibe (for examle all antidepressant, antipsychotics, stanins, aromataze inhibitors etc.). One condition is treated a two are arising. For future only hope for treating of conditions is genetics. pharmacology is too dangerous.
09-01-2007, 07:41 AM
09-01-2007, 10:50 AM
It is actually irrelevant if I have truth or not because my truth doesn't help to anybody. I was studing because I wanted to help all people to be happy and healthy I was really optimist. But informations I have colected within 14 years are not optimistic. I really know a lot about genetics, pharmacology and medicine but I'm not able to help myself. That is why I'm here and trying to collect another informations.
09-01-2007, 10:59 AM
jaydee sorry due to my bad english I have not quite understood what you have written. Have you written that after withdrawal of finasterid your depression has emerged???
09-01-2007, 11:03 AM
Yes Genisis...it was when I STOPPED the drug that I all the issues start. I had all the sides while on the drug, but on a much smaller scale. I would describe what happened when I dropped the drug as a "crash". Everything seemed to stop working.....and the depression started then.
09-01-2007, 11:03 AM
Take your 250mg/2week dose=125mg/week
and do it preferably E3D
once/week may work.
Libido depends more on E than T.
The hormones that can influence libido directly or indirectly include:
3 Estradiol and other estrogens
9 Thyroid Hormones
13 Growth Hormone
etc.etc. (practically every hormone)
Of course, some have greater influence than others.
But all are involved in a tight mesh of function.
Abnormalities in one can permeate the entire system,
causing problems with the others.
09-01-2007, 11:10 AM
When someone complains about finasteride
first question should be
what is your DHT level
from here on usually I see hand waving and no reported DHT levels.
Suposedly finasteride affects 2-5% men using it.
I am guessing that out of that pool of people, 1% is affected by other than low DHT levels.
So it is mater of proportions.
That does not help the couple dozens of men that have high DHT and after finasteride problems, but they are definite minority within minority.
09-01-2007, 11:15 AM
09-01-2007, 11:21 AM
jaydee ... did you try Testosteron replacement therapy???
JanSz thank ... this is very nice list of hormones and neurohormones ). And I'm listening but I have written it wrong. What do you think about testocaps (testosteron undecanoate - lower aromatization and greater DHT production as injectable testosteron esters). Wouldn't it be to prefer testocaps to injectable esters?
09-01-2007, 11:27 AM
T was about 550, E was around 28 and DHT blood test showed absoulute bottom of range.....2 ref (2 - 20)....or somthing like that....cant remember and i was never given the units for that one either. The depression was instant..I felt like id been hit by a truck after the finasteride....couldnt do anything and was "down in a hole". Im not as bad now, but the suicide thing props up all the time, because there a lot of the time no answers for the finasteride stuff - not much hope.
Genisis - Yes i am on TRT now and so far...no cigar - its not working.
09-01-2007, 11:49 AM
JanSz. First side effects of finasterid affect in fact more than 2-5 percent people. In practice it is 6-19 percent and even more. Merc is really a big liar or they really did not know about it but this is not matter. Side effects are not problem but irreversible side effects are. Depresion and decreased stress management which cause finasterid is due to decreased androgenic and progesteronic and increased estrogenic stimulation in certain parts of the brain (it is as premenstrual syndrome) and usually wear off after cessation of finasterid but not if hypogonadism occured. No one have ever measured me DHT or estrogen level here in Slovakia (only prolactine, testosteron, FSH, LH, thyroxin). I really need a new hormonal test but I'm going to Austria for it.
09-01-2007, 12:04 PM
Genisis I agree. I dont buy the BS that Merck is claiming about finasteride. Its about money....
We'd love to have you over at the propeciahelp forum. We throw ideas around, try to help each other out...your welcome to join. We have some very knowledgable people there already, so its good to drop in every now and then.
09-01-2007, 12:10 PM
jaydee & Genisis
You see we are dealing with low DHT at least in jaydee's case.
(this is my theory for 98% cases, finasteride problem=low DHT)
it implies = raise DHT, problems should go away
I know of two ways that DHT can be risen
Using transdermal testosterone
also applying it to genital area increases it even more.
Using DHT cream
I do not need the extra DHT, bu I had a great "succes" in raising it while on Androgel (1%), DHT=229.
Must say it was lesser "success" while on 10% Tcream, DHT=143
09-01-2007, 12:16 PM
09-01-2007, 12:51 PM
For many, injecting once a week is bad too.
I found that injecting weekly that my down days before the next injection increased until I did not feel anything from my injection. Libido was a mess and energy dropped etc. I started to inject T every other/second day (EOD/E2D). This helped a lot, but it was the addition of anastrozole that really made things right for me.
T can be injected with insulin needles into the quadriceps, much nicer than big long needles in the gluts.
09-01-2007, 10:41 PM
At the end of the day though, we also need to check the DHT via urine.
I hope your right though, and that maybe DHT cream is somthing that might work if I add it in to what im doing already.....god i hope so!
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