HCG only for TRT
- 08-22-2007, 09:08 PM
HCG only for TRT
Janz and Plymouth City what are your thoughts on HCG only?
I'm going to be seeing a Urologist in about a month to restart TRT. I have suffered from low T for awhile and the endo I went to last year put me on Androgel, but assured me I would still be fertile as we are trying to have kids. Well needless to say, he was wrong and I went off Androgel and used Repronex to get going again. So now I've got my sperm back, but the T levels have dropped again below 300. I'm going to a urologist who seems to be up on Androgel, but is very conservative when it comes to things like Clomid and HCG. My wife and I have done IVF and hope it will turn out, but I want to maintain fertility just in case.
I'm intrigued by all the talk on of HCG only for TRT as this seems to be gaining acceptance. Janz and Plymouth City what are your thoughts on HCG only? Bare minimum I want to start androgel with HCG, but I fear this is going to be met with resistance by the Urologist. Any good studies/papers I can point him to?
- 08-22-2007, 09:23 PM
I do not feel like solo hcG will be enough for HRT. All hcG does is restore baseline testical functioning (for what you have left) as far as a testosterone standpoint. Your looking at an extra 200ng TOPS, probably less.
The real miracle behind hcG is that it is artifical LH. LH receptors are scattered throughout the body, and hcG acts upon these.
I have read lots of stuff about guys having big boosts in mood, well being, decrease in anxiety, fat loss and improved overall QOL.
There are a bunch of anti aging Doctors in more progressive parts of Europe/Middle East that clamor to the rich and famous. hcG is a big part of their protocols for fat loss and anti aging.
08-22-2007, 10:52 PM
Yes, try HCG alone, if your testis are up to, it may be enough.
At minimum, you will keep your testis in good shape.
Get good blood test per my list.
But decission on going HCG only I would base on SHBG level.
Good, average testis are probably puting out TT=700-800
If your SHBG is high that will newer be good enough, you will need additional T-shot, plus program to get SHBG lower.
Clomid is not useful, it is not something you would use long term when you find that it works, so the information is useless. You want to know if HCG will make testis work, because if it is, you just keep on going, using hcg.
I would decide on E2D hcg shots, 250Iu each shot.
Latter add Depo-testosterone as need.
I can tell you (approximately) how much Depo-T when you post SHBG (and TT while on hcg)
You can keep going thru life like that.
If you cannot conceive, do not stop T & hcg, just add
75iu HMG every day.
Then keep trying at least for additional 3 months, but up to a year.
If you do not conceive by then, I am not sure if you should push the issue any further.
There are other aspects to health
insuline, sugar, Metabolism
08-22-2007, 11:49 PM
I've been on HCG alone as TRT and think that it has merit. It is a more "natural" form of TRT since all pathways are stimulated and the T made is T that your body produced. I got my wife pregnant while on HCG alone as TRT.
I do agree with PC in that you may not be able to get your levels high enough on HCG alone. That was the case for me, but some men are able to get their levels up near the top on HCG alone. My baselines were in the low 200's and on HCG, I was able to get into the low 500's. This was on 275iu per day. I was hesitant to go much more than that.
I will say that running HCG alone and then running out of HCG (ie, traveling and letting your HCG get hot and go bad...don't ask me how I know ) is a terrible experience. HCG alone is a not an ideal protocol if travel is a part of your life, IMO.
08-23-2007, 07:41 PM
08-24-2007, 02:47 PM
Solo hcG isn't really a natural form of hrt. It will induce some type of shutdown when used for a long enough period.
Expect to see FSH in particular being affected.
I think a more natural type of HRT that won't cause any shutdown and is much safer would be to stack Pregnenolone and DHEA and use in cycles. Not only will it not induce any shutdown, it will probably work better in increasing test as well as other androgenic hormones.
08-24-2007, 03:14 PM
It induces complete shutdown, PC. LH = 0 while on it.
But, the Test that gets created is through the metabolic pathways...not the needle. That was what I was trying to say.
08-24-2007, 04:19 PM
08-24-2007, 05:54 PM
08-24-2007, 07:00 PM
You can buy Preg and DHEA over the counter. The problem is that absorbability seems to be really hit and miss. It works well in some people and not at all in others.
Also factor in that in a disease state such as hypogonadism, you can supply more raw material, but it is still up to your body to figure out how to appropriately use it. Will it? That's the question that you can only answer as an individual.
Each approach has its drawbacks, IMO. Bringing in exogeneous Testosterone causes pathway suppression that must be addressed. Stimulating your own pathways to raise T can cause overstimulation of undesirable pathways. Ie, too much HCG will sharply increase E2.
For everyone, the best protocol seems to be which is less problematic for you. Ie, is it less problematic to re-stimulate suppressed pathways or less problematic to suppress overly stimulated ones? Blood work and most importantly, how you feel, will tell you.
My 2 cents...
08-25-2007, 10:12 AM
My experience was poor with both.
For long time I was using huge amount, 350mg/day of DHEA with only small raise as shown in blood test.
I changed to prescription compounded pregnenolone cream,
my DHEA went thru the roof.
unfortunately lab skipped pregnenolone test.
since that blood test I stopped DHEA supplementations hoping that preg cream will work for both.
My next test is in September.
08-25-2007, 02:10 PM
The problems with both DHEA and Pregnenolone is that they are horribly absorbed orally, as others have noted.
One way to get around all of that is to use a transdermal delivery application.
I like Dermacrine for this.
One thing I would like to add is that, really, unless you have had a clomid stim test, you don't really know for sure how functioning your balls are(or lack therof). And even then, your balls could want to start cranking out T but with estrogen mucking up all the parking spots( the T receptors) its a mute point. To many people are quick to jump the gun and assume because they have low T, low LH (or high) that they are incapable of producing T anymore.
One thing I would like to add is that more often than not, it is cortisol and estrogen mucking things up, not the testicals. Especially in the young to middle aged guys(under 60)
08-25-2007, 02:58 PM
I do agree that people are too quick to jump on TRT. They get low Test readings and go straight to TRT without thinking about other problems, namely thyroid and adrenals.
When I initially saw Dr Mariano last year, my T levels were in the mid 300's on Nolvadex @ 20mg/day. After treating adrenals and thyroid, that rose to 595. That is higher than I got with 40mg of Nolvadex a few years back. I went straight from Nolvadex (with a 10 day break) to regular TRT. Now I begin to wonder if I should be on TRT at all.
08-25-2007, 04:33 PM
What do you mean by treating adrenals? Is nolvadex something you're on long term? Do you feel better with this stuff?
08-25-2007, 05:40 PM
TSH is not the test to use to check for hyopthyroidism. If your doc is stuck on it, TSH above 2 is generally considered elegible for treatment. I was given Armour Thyroid based on low Free T3 and more importantly, symptoms.
I do find Nolvadex to be the most stable form of TRT (for me). They all bring different benefits and problems. Traditional TRT (Testosterone or Testosterone + HCG) causes (for me) pathyway imbalance that has been very hard to correct which has worsened adrenal fatigue. HCG doesn't seem to do this to me, but the daily pokes and the fact I can't get my levels high enough on it are a drawback. Nolvadex tends to hurt libido (in me), but while on it, the numbers are great and I do little to no monitoring.
08-25-2007, 07:02 PM
08-27-2007, 02:18 PM
08-27-2007, 02:51 PM
PC, the 595 was with Nolvadex in the picture @ 20mg/day. That had pushed my LH up near the top of the range.
I guess I should create a log.
08-27-2007, 03:20 PM
08-27-2007, 03:36 PM
08-28-2007, 02:03 PM
You might be interested in some stuff Im reading.
The juice heads(these guys BTW are genius) over at elitefitness are all touting Dermacrine Sustain as the choice for post cycle therapy nowadays.
Given resveratrols(main ingredient in Derm Sus) ability to mimic all of clomids positives and act like a SERM and agonize or antagonize estrogen, depending upon receptor site, I can see why. Resveratrol also has a strong ability to boost LH. If nolvadex did that for you I do not see why Derm Sustain couldn't do the same.
Check out this post - EliteFitness.com Bodybuilding Forums
Sonny we can get you off the HRT ball in chain if your daring enough to go for it.
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