To the smart ones: How does the body make its own DHEA?

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    To the smart ones: How does the body make its own DHEA?


    and to add to that question:

    Does supplementing DHEA negatively impact natural production of this hormone?

    Does LH play a role in producing DHEA at the adrenals?

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    Your body makes DHEA from Pregnenolone. Pregnenolone is made by the Cytochrome P450 SCC enzyme converting Cholesterol to Pregnenolone. HCG increases activity of this enzyme.

    My experience (which may not mirror the experience of others) is that raising Test by raising LH does not stress the adrenals because the body is using its own hormone cascade mechanism to create Testosterone. On LH raising drugs (Nolvadex) and LH mimmicking drugs (HCG), my DHEA does not drop the way it does when I use exogeneous Testosterone (injection, gel, etc).

    When you bring in exogeneous Testosterone, your body actually "fights" it by reducing DHEA and Pregnenolone. Unfortunately, Pregnenolone (the mother hormone) is needed for other important things like Progesterone, so keeping Pregnenlone activity optimal is very important. This is why (IMO), HCG should be a part of any TRT regimen.

    Sonny
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    Quote Originally Posted by T800 View Post
    Your body makes DHEA from Pregnenolone. Pregnenolone is made by the Cytochrome P450 SCC enzyme converting Cholesterol to Pregnenolone. HCG increases activity of this enzyme.

    My experience (which may not mirror the experience of others) is that raising Test by raising LH does not stress the adrenals because the body is using its own hormone cascade mechanism to create Testosterone. On LH raising drugs (Nolvadex) and LH mimmicking drugs (HCG), my DHEA does not drop the way it does when I use exogeneous Testosterone (injection, gel, etc).

    When you bring in exogeneous Testosterone, your body actually "fights" it by reducing DHEA and Pregnenolone. Unfortunately, Pregnenolone (the mother hormone) is needed for other important things like Progesterone, so keeping Pregnenlone activity optimal is very important. This is why (IMO), HCG should be a part of any TRT regimen.

    Sonny
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    Quote Originally Posted by T800 View Post
    Your body makes DHEA from Pregnenolone. Pregnenolone is made by the Cytochrome P450 SCC enzyme converting Cholesterol to Pregnenolone. HCG increases activity of this enzyme.

    My experience (which may not mirror the experience of others) is that raising Test by raising LH does not stress the adrenals because the body is using its own hormone cascade mechanism to create Testosterone. On LH raising drugs (Nolvadex) and LH mimmicking drugs (HCG), my DHEA does not drop the way it does when I use exogeneous Testosterone (injection, gel, etc).

    When you bring in exogeneous Testosterone, your body actually "fights" it by reducing DHEA and Pregnenolone. Unfortunately, Pregnenolone (the mother hormone) is needed for other important things like Progesterone, so keeping Pregnenlone activity optimal is very important. This is why (IMO), HCG should be a part of any TRT regimen.

    Sonny
    I am on 140mg/week E3D Depo-T
    and
    500iu HCG (E3D), same days as T

    I am preparing list of items for my September blood test.

    Buying into your theory on HCG
    what items should I check so I could
    evaluate if I have proper dose of HCG.

    My long test is shown on post #1
    This time it is short test, currently I plan to do most of the items #40 and down as shown in post #44.
    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007
    Note, blood test post#1, I was on 1gram of 100mg/1gram compounded T cream that obviously did not worked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T800 View Post
    Your body makes DHEA from Pregnenolone. Pregnenolone is made by the Cytochrome P450 SCC enzyme converting Cholesterol to Pregnenolone. HCG increases activity of this enzyme.

    My experience (which may not mirror the experience of others) is that raising Test by raising LH does not stress the adrenals because the body is using its own hormone cascade mechanism to create Testosterone. On LH raising drugs (Nolvadex) and LH mimmicking drugs (HCG), my DHEA does not drop the way it does when I use exogeneous Testosterone (injection, gel, etc).

    When you bring in exogeneous Testosterone, your body actually "fights" it by reducing DHEA and Pregnenolone. Unfortunately, Pregnenolone (the mother hormone) is needed for other important things like Progesterone, so keeping Pregnenlone activity optimal is very important. This is why (IMO), HCG should be a part of any TRT regimen.

    Sonny
    Excellent answer T800... My next question is: how can I raise my DHEA naturally without supplementing orally? Shall eat a certain type of diet? etc..???

    I was on TRT a long ago. I have quit TRT a year ago and as you were saying above, my DHEA was in the low range. For some reason I feel like by supplementing DHEA orally, I'm short-curcuiting my body to produce its own DHEA naturally. I like to have my body take care of its own naturally in raising its hormones including DHEA.. Am I being wrong for not supplementing with DHEA? Is it a good idea to allow my body to raise its own DHEA by following natural steps such as diet, exercise etc...??
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    The best way to naturally increase DHEA would be to increase Pregnenolone.

    Pregnenolone is made from Cholesterol, so you need adequate Cholesterol. I have low Cholesterol and one of the things that my doc has me on is Vitamin A (not the beta carotene type...the other type. Can't think of the name off the top of my head). He said in the presence of low Cholesterol, Vitamin A will help convert Cholesterol to Pregnenolone.

    Still...at this point, your body will decide what to do with the Pregnenolone. It can either take the DHEA path or the Progesterone path. I am not sure how to "persuade" it to go in either direction.

    Sonny
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Buying into your theory on HCG
    what items should I check so I could
    evaluate if I have proper dose of HCG.
    Jan: My guess would be a good test would be checking for adequate levels of DHEA and Progesterone. Both are descendants of Pregnenolone, but the Pregnenolone assay seems to unreliable in males.

    I would guess that if Progesterone and DHEA are adequate, it is safe to assume that their "mother" (Preg) is adequate. If that's the case, Pregnenolone's creation from Cholesterol must also be adequate. I don't think HCG alone is enough to do this in most males though. Hence, Dr John's reason for putting all his guys on Pregnenolone. Everyone is different though. Phil doesn't take Pregnenolone, but takes about 700iu per week of HCG.

    Sonny
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    Quote Originally Posted by T800 View Post
    Your body makes DHEA from Pregnenolone. Pregnenolone is made by the Cytochrome P450 SCC enzyme converting Cholesterol to Pregnenolone. HCG increases activity of this enzyme.
    If HCG increases the activity of this enzyme, doesn't that mean that LH will do the same thing? And; if that's the case, I can't help but think that by supplementing with DHEA orally I'd be sending signals produce less LH which can't be good when trying to recover HPTA after TRT is stopped. Am I goofing in my theories?? LOL
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    Quote Originally Posted by T800 View Post
    Jan: My guess would be a good test would be checking for adequate levels of DHEA and Progesterone. Both are descendants of Pregnenolone, but the Pregnenolone assay seems to unreliable in males.

    I would guess that if Progesterone and DHEA are adequate, it is safe to assume that their "mother" (Preg) is adequate. If that's the case, Pregnenolone's creation from Cholesterol must also be adequate. I don't think HCG alone is enough to do this in most males though. Hence, Dr John's reason for putting all his guys on Pregnenolone. Everyone is different though. Phil doesn't take Pregnenolone, but takes about 700iu per week of HCG.

    Sonny
    Since Feb 07 I was taking 250iu hcg E2D
    since june 19/07 I am taking 500iu hcg E3D
    Since Feb 07 I take 1gram/day compounded Pregnenolone cream, desity of 100mg/1gram
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    There is possiblility that some fishy stuff is going on with DHEAs.

    For years I was using large amount of DHEA pills from LEF, ~350mg/day.
    Meager results, using LabCorp test
    Oct 2006
    DHEA Sulfate=369 ng/dL (42-290)LE’s Optimal Range: 500-640 ug/dL
    Switched to preg cream in Feb2007
    QuestDiagnostic
    DHEA sulfate=306(25-95)mcg/dL

    it is 3x over the range

    is this a problem with testing, laboratories or their ranges possibly the
    pregnenolone cream act as dynamo?

    After I seen the results I keep using preg cream but stopped all DHEA.

    can't wait for my blood test in September.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Since Feb 07 I was taking 250iu hcg E2D
    since june 19/07 I am taking 500iu hcg E3D
    Since Feb 07 I take 1gram/day compounded Pregnenolone cream, desity of 100mg/1gram
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    There is possiblility that some fishy stuff is going on with DHEAs.

    For years I was using large amount of DHEA pills from LEF, ~350mg/day.
    Meager results, using LabCorp test
    Oct 2006
    DHEA Sulfate=369 ng/dL (42-290)LEs Optimal Range: 500-640 ug/dL
    Switched to preg cream in Feb2007
    QuestDiagnostic
    DHEA sulfate=306(25-95)mcg/dL

    it is 3x over the range

    is this a problem with testing, laboratories or their ranges possibly the
    pregnenolone cream act as dynamo?

    After I seen the results I keep using preg cream but stopped all DHEA.

    can't wait for my blood test in September.
    JansZ,
    This goes to show that hormones used in transdermal are far, far superiour than in pill form.

    Pregnenolone cream - big boost in DHEA

    DHEA pills - not much of a boost in DHEA despite taking gonzo amounts.

    I would also like to note that if one can see results from transdermal preg one can assume same about T.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigAk View Post
    If HCG increases the activity of this enzyme, doesn't that mean that LH will do the same thing? And; if that's the case, I can't help but think that by supplementing with DHEA orally I'd be sending signals produce less LH which can't be good when trying to recover HPTA after TRT is stopped. Am I goofing in my theories?? LOL
    Supplementing oral DHEA is a form of HRT and will result in shutdown of natural production.

    One can easily, easily avoid this by supplementing DHEA in a 2 week on/2off cycle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    JansZ,
    This goes to show that hormones used in transdermal are far, far superiour than in pill form.

    Pregnenolone cream - big boost in DHEA

    DHEA pills - not much of a boost in DHEA despite taking gonzo amounts.

    I would also like to note that if one can see results from transdermal preg one can assume same about T.
    Agree with first assumption.

    My blood test proved that this assumptions do not extends to Tcream, possibly it is about carriers that they used.

    I applied both creams on my calf and then both were rubed in with the other calf (so both creams mixed in the process).

    I will have another blood test soon. Since the previous test I stopped using DHEA pills, will see if I can use only preg cream and take care of DHEA and Preg at same time.
    .
    When I discovered that my TotalT fall down so much, at first I doubled the Tcream dose, was planning to wait until blood test.
    Latter I decided that 2grams of Tcream and 1gram of preg was too much trouble.
    I changed to Depo-T.
    I also calculated my initial dose using my SHBG levels, just like I do for others from time to time.
    .
    One of the problems I had with creams or gells was preplanning of showers.
    Now if something unexpected comes up, I can be out the doors within 15 minutes including shower.
    I consider this big plus.
    .
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Supplementing oral DHEA is a form of HRT and will result in shutdown of natural production.
    But; do you mean there would be shutdown of the HPTA ??
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    [QUOTE=plymouth city;966290]Supplementing oral DHEA is a form of HRT and will result in shutdown of natural production.
    QUOTE]

    Are you speculating, or are you certain of that?

    Dr. John has his patients refrain from taking DHEA the day before and the day of testing, either with 24-hour UA or bloodwork so that he can see what their baseline is.
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    [QUOTE=cpeil2;966680]
    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Supplementing oral DHEA is a form of HRT and will result in shutdown of natural production.
    QUOTE]

    Are you speculating, or are you certain of that?

    Dr. John has his patients refrain from taking DHEA the day before and the day of testing, either with 24-hour UA or bloodwork so that he can see what their baseline is.
    I hate all this hormonal game.... Everybody has read something somewhere and everybody has come up with a theory on things... It's getting to the point I'm skeptical of every motha'f*kin thing I read or hear about. Whooo knowwws what's really going on in the human body on an individual level????!!!!! Even bloodwork I've lately read can be unreliable.

    That said; here's my shady theory... I think it makes perfect sense to me that the body shuts down its own production of any hormone if supplemented externally. As far as DHEA is concerned, it's the same deal. And; I think once the body is shut down it will take longer than 24hr to reflect its actual natural output of the DHEA hormone.

    On the other hand.... I may be wrong and don't know jack!!!

    One thing I know for damn sure though is this: Messing with one's hormones is an extremely complex task; like opening a huge stinking can of worms.... It's better to keep the lid on if you can...
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    [QUOTE=cpeil2;966680]
    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Supplementing oral DHEA is a form of HRT and will result in shutdown of natural production.
    QUOTE]

    Are you speculating, or are you certain of that?

    Dr. John has his patients refrain from taking DHEA the day before and the day of testing, either with 24-hour UA or bloodwork so that he can see what their baseline is.
    When younger people take high doses of DHEA, you bet.

    "People younger than 30 years of age may run the risk of suppressing the body's natural production of DHEA if they take DHEA supplements" - http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/co...p?sitearea=ETO
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    [QUOTE=plymouth city;968029]
    Quote Originally Posted by cpeil2 View Post

    When younger people take high doses of DHEA, you bet.

    "People younger than 30 years of age may run the risk of suppressing the body's natural production of DHEA if they take DHEA supplements" - ACS :: DHEA
    I don't see why the people over 30 are excluded from this risk!!!!! I'm 40 and I don't think my body will keep producing DHEA naturally if I keep swallowing these dhea caps... Therefore; I'm stopping.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigAk View Post
    One thing I know for damn sure though is this: Messing with one's hormones is an extremely complex task; like opening a huge stinking can of worms.... It's better to keep the lid on if you can...


    And judging from your posts, you just about have the lid back on. I have witnessed your journey with a lot of interest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    .

    My blood test proved that this assumptions do not extends to Tcream, possibly it is about carriers that they used.

    .
    .
    jansZ,
    I have a sneaking suspician that you are exactly right.

    I believe that androgel uses different chemicals to allow for skin absorbtion than other t creams do.

    I suspect that various compounding creams can vary.

    One has to really make sure that he works with his doctor to find a reputable compounding pharmacy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpeil2 View Post
    And judging from your posts, you just about have the lid back on. I have witnessed your journey with a lot of interest.
    Hi cpeil... You are correct. LOL... I pray the lid would stay on forever...
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    jansZ,
    I have a sneaking suspician that you are exactly right.

    I believe that androgel uses different chemicals to allow for skin absorbtion than other t creams do.

    I suspect that various compounding creams can vary.

    One has to really make sure that he works with his doctor to find a reputable compounding pharmacy.
    I think the Tcream that I used is an excellent product,
    it comes from good pharmacy, had I smeared it in places that I can't, due to my handling of my gradson, possibly it would have worked better.

    With all that, my quality of life is much better on this tiny two shots once every three days.
    Plus I have much better contol of how much testosterone gets into my system.

    With transdermals we use a large amounts of testosterone and only tiny (and variable) fraction gets to the blood sysyem.

    With injections I know exactly what got under my skin.

    We are dealing with multivariate system, any time we can remove variable we should go for it.
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    There are certainly large differences in Test creams vs. Androgel. Androgel is an alcohol based simple carbomer gel. There is really nothing special to enhance absorbtion other than the alcohol. Creams normally lead to much better absorbtion of drug, but I'm sure there are person to person variables here. In reality, most horomones simply don't need much help getting through the skin. I work with them daily and have to cover skin, wear gloves and mask to avoid raising my own levels. That being said, there are clearly some people who simply don't get them from the skin to bloodstream well for some reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Supplementing oral DHEA is a form of HRT and will result in shutdown of natural production.

    One can easily, easily avoid this by supplementing DHEA in a 2 week on/2off cycle.
    In addition to using oral DHEA for months on end without ill effect (as per pre, post, and post-post blood test results), I've read a boatload of research abstracts, research theory, and anecdotal comments regarding the use of exogenous DHEA, and I don't recall ever seeing anything that supports the "shutdown" theory (although I'm the first to admit that I'm no expert). Please enlighten me/us as to the basis for your belief.
  

  
 

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