labs after tgel

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    labs after tgel


    Initial log thread:
    another log

    Pretreatment labs

    Things out of range
    FreeT .....37.7 pg/mL (ref range 46.0-224.0)
    BioAvail T..... 93.9 ng/dL (ref range 110-575)
    LH .....1.1 mIU//mL (ref range 1.5-9.3)
    SHBG ..... 51 nmol/L (ref range 15-49)
    Albunim,Serum .....5.5 g/dL (ref range 3.6-5.1)
    Estradiol, %Free .....1.87 (adults 1.25-1.85)
    Glucose .....118 mg/dL (ref range 65-99)
    HGB..18 (13.3-17.1)

    In range, low
    IGF-I .....100 ng/mL (ref range 87-225)

    In range, high
    Estradiol, Free.....0.41 (adults <= 0.45)

    Things in range
    TotalT.....434 ng/dL (ref range 250-1100)
    Estradiol, .....22 (adults <= 29)
    Dihydrotest ..... 56 ng/dL (ref range 25-75)
    PSA..... 0.5 (range <=2.5)
    Cholesterol total .....144
    HDL ..... 44
    LDL .....78
    DHEA SULFATE....151 mcg/dL.....(ref range 25-240)

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    after being on 1ml of 5% - Does this seem right?
    No other supplementation except 25mg DHEA 2x a day, Fish oil, Flax oil, LiverCare, CoQ10,E, and misc other vitamins.

    FreeT .....35.2 pg/mL (ref range 46.0-224.0)
    BioAvail T..... 70.9 ng/dL (ref range 110-575)
    TotalT.....303ng/dL (ref range 250-1100)
    LH .....2.1 mIU//mL (ref range 1.5-9.3)
    SHBG ..... 37 nmol/L (ref range 15-49)
    Albunim,Serum .....4.4 g/dL (ref range 3.6-5.1)
    Glucose .....125 mg/dL (ref range 65-99)
    HGB 16.3 (13.3-17.1)

    Quest screwed up and didn't run estrogen.
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    How long after applying the gel was blood taken??
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    4 hrs
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    Acording to graphs 4 hours is the same as 12 hours. should of been 2-3 hours but that baseline level is still low anyway.
    Do you feel any better? if you dont my guess is that its not absorbing, you should probly try switching to injections, but you could also try doubling the dose and getting a peak level done, which is 2 hours after application.
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    Seemed strange. I go on Tgel and
    • All T tests go down
    • SHGB goes down
    • LH goes up

    shouldn't it be the opposite of that?
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    Well in my case my peak level is higher but my baseline is not even half that.

    My morning level before testogel was 550ng/dl, with FT below range.
    Peak level on testogel was 720ng/dl with FT mid range.
    Baseline morning level without applying testogel was 250ng with FT that of my morning level before starting testogel.
    somehow if its not absorbed properly it can lower your levels.
    And I found LH, FT and TT dont look like there even related when looking at the ratios on blood tests.
    LH has a very short half life, you should pay more attention to FSH.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnotherOldGuy View Post
    after being on 1ml of 5% - Does this seem right?
    No other supplementation except 25mg DHEA 2x a day, Fish oil, Flax oil, LiverCare, CoQ10,E, and misc other vitamins.

    FreeT .....35.2 pg/mL (ref range 46.0-224.0)
    BioAvail T..... 70.9 ng/dL (ref range 110-575)
    TotalT.....303ng/dL (ref range 250-1100)
    LH .....2.1 mIU//mL (ref range 1.5-9.3)
    SHBG ..... 37 nmol/L (ref range 15-49)
    Albunim,Serum .....4.4 g/dL (ref range 3.6-5.1)
    Glucose .....125 mg/dL (ref range 65-99)
    HGB 16.3 (13.3-17.1)

    Quest screwed up and didn't run estrogen.
    Quote Originally Posted by ItsHectic View Post
    How long after applying the gel was blood taken??
    Quote Originally Posted by AnotherOldGuy View Post
    4 hrs
    Wow many weeks have you been on this "1ml of 5% "
    before you went for a blood test?

    ============================== =============
    Just in case that you end up on Depo-T shots.
    You have high SGBG, your T dose is going to be high.
    First you reported
    SHBG=51
    now
    SHBG=37

    Based on 37 You are going to need
    TT~1100
    to get there you need 160mg/week

    If you use E3D, every three days schedule of 200mg/mL Testosterone

    160/7*3/200=0.342cc=34units on insuline syringe

    This amount would not fit in the (31ga 5/16" long 3/10cc) syringes that I am using.
    Either switch to E2D schedule or use 1/2cc syringe.

    30ga is still very small needle, use this:

    BD Ultrafine U-100 Insulin Syringe 30 Gauge 1/2cc 1/2Inch 100/Box Price: $23.50
    BD Ultrafine U-100 Insulin Syringe 30 Gauge 1/2cc 1/2Inch 100/Box

    Use 500IU hcg with your T shots

    Schedule E3D, shots are SubQ around navel
    (T+hcg) same day then two days free
    Tdose=34 units
    HCG dose=500iu

    recheck E2, may need Arimidex, do not use Arimidex if not indicated by blood test
    I use LiquiDex, 0.5cc=1/2 pill on my days when I take shots.
    -------------------------------------------------
    Above T dose is preliminary to be adjusted per blood test results, 2 -3 months latter.

    Goal is to have FreeT~250

    reading dr Shippen chart, post #41
    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007
    --------------------------------------------------------
    Use prescription compounded Chrysin and pregnenolone cream
    or
    from LEF
    SuperMiraForte
    Prostate formula
    to reduce your SHBG
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    You are probably on 5g TD Qd.

    This is often not enough. Many need 7.5 or as much as 10g.

    Do not switch to injects yet.

    Get higher dose.

    You also need hcG.

    Possibly arimidex as well, given estrogen was high BEFORE EXOGENOUS T WAS GIVEN. It is very likely E is running rampant again.
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    follow up tests 6 weeks after starting 1ml of 5% once a day. After 10 days, I felt GREAT, for about a week, then went back to the way I felt pre treatment.

    Doubled up, to 2ml a day.

    HCG is only an injectable, correct? I hate needles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnotherOldGuy View Post
    follow up tests 6 weeks after starting 1ml of 5% once a day. After 10 days, I felt GREAT, for about a week, then went back to the way I felt pre treatment.

    Doubled up, to 2ml a day.

    HCG is only an injectable, correct? I hate needles.
    Yes, it is only injectable.

    I suggest you man up and go for it.

    Remember, many who start on adrogel feel great then subside. This is due to the baseline functioning ceasing to exist. The 5g they start with, in conjunction to the baseline production they have, get them within range.

    However, without hcG, after weeks of Gel usage, they lose that baseline function and start to feel worse. This is what happened to you. Many ignorantly feel like Gel did not work and quit. This is incorrect thinking. They lose baseline functioning from lack of hcG.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsHectic View Post
    ...... you should pay more attention to FSH.
    PreGel, 4.1
    Followups, 3.9
    (range 1.6-8)
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    The 5g they start with, in conjunction to the baseline production they have, get them within range. ....However, without hcG, after weeks of Gel usage, they lose that baseline function and start to feel worse. This is what happened to you. Many ignorantly feel like Gel did not work and quit. This is incorrect thinking. They lose baseline functioning from lack of hcG.
    This makes alot of sense. So the gel basically just replaced my own production - for a short while, I had both and felt good. Makes sense.

    So what is a typical starting dose, and how often?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnotherOldGuy View Post
    So what is a typical starting dose, and how often?
    For hcG, per Dr John - "In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot....."Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day"

    For T, per Dr John - "I start my guys out on either testosterone cream/gel 5mgs QD or testosterone cypionate 100mg per week"
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnotherOldGuy View Post
    This makes alot of sense. So the gel basically just replaced my own production - for a short while, I had both and felt good. Makes sense.
    Exactly. You had the gel PLUS your own baseline production, and presto, we got ourselves a happy medium.

    However, hcG was never eventually administered. You lost baseline production, and the gel was simply just not enough to overcompensate for lack of baseline production. Had hcG been administered, baseline production restored, and presto, your good to go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnotherOldGuy View Post
    follow up tests 6 weeks after starting 1ml of 5% once a day. After 10 days, I felt GREAT, for about a week, then went back to the way I felt pre treatment.

    Doubled up, to 2ml a day.

    HCG is only an injectable, correct? I hate needles.

    Using an insulin syringe and a short 31g needle, the shot is virtually painless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    For T, per Dr John - "I start my guys out on either testosterone cream/gel 5mgs QD or testosterone cypionate 100mg per week"
    If 70% of injectable T into the blood, then 100mg/week effectively becomes 10mg per day average.

    Seems like this is more equal to 1ml of 10% gel to get the 10mg, not 1ml of 5%. Seems like the starting point for gel should be 1ml of 10%??

    What am i missing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Based on 37 You are going to need
    TT~1100
    to get there you need 160mg/week
    Wow, that would be about the same as 4ml of 5% or 2ml of 10%


    Doing some quick math, injectable is about half the cost of compounded gel (is that about right?)
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    Its not replacing your own production otherwise your lh would be undetectable, I think its not absorbing properly and only a little bit is getting through.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsHectic View Post
    Its not replacing your own production otherwise your lh would be undetectable, I think its not absorbing properly and only a little bit is getting through.
    I think he meant the gel was giving him back the T he used to have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnotherOldGuy View Post
    If 70% of injectable T into the blood, then 100mg/week effectively becomes 10mg per day average.

    Seems like this is more equal to 1ml of 10% gel to get the 10mg, not 1ml of 5%. Seems like the starting point for gel should be 1ml of 10%??

    What am i missing?
    Not exactly.

    Remember with shots you are not getting an even 10mg per day, given inject schedule. This is why they overshoot the 10mg per day average. On day's 5 and 6 of shot schedule, you would be lucky if your getting half that amount of T. This is why hcG is given on day five and 6 - it is a bridge leading up to shot day. In actuality, when you think about it, that makes alot of sense doing it that way

    An average person 18 - 24 produces what is equivelent to 10mg of T per day. 10mg per day would get you near the top end of the range.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnotherOldGuy View Post
    Wow, that would be about the same as 4ml of 5% or 2ml of 10%


    Doing some quick math, injectable is about half the cost of compounded gel (is that about right?)
    I have wrote on this extensively before.

    The SHBG assay in itself is extremely unreliable and inaccurate, so to base a HRT protocol or T dosing upon an invalid assay is completely pointless. Guess what will happen if you start shooting up 160mg of T a week anyways - your SHBG will go down. So, if we wanted to follow JansZ idea, your gonna end up injecting less T anyways once SHBG goes down right? Either way, I don't recommend it.

    Start with an average of 5mg of T a day via compounding cream. Adjust per BW.
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    After a while on 2ml of 5%. Bloodwork done 3hrs after applying.

    No other supplementation except 25mg DHEA 2x a day, Fish oil, Flax oil, LiverCare, CoQ10,E, and misc other vitamins.

    First time BioT and FreeT in range!! WoooWooo!

    FreeT .....70.1pg/mL (ref range 46.0-224.0)
    BioAvail T..... 135 ng/dL (ref range 110-575)
    TotalT.....586 ng/dL (ref range 250-1100)
    SHBG ..... 41 nmol/L (ref range 15-49)
    Albunim,Serum .....4.2 g/dL (ref range 3.6-5.1)
    Estradiol 25 (range <=29)

    psa 0.4 (<=4.0)

    AST & ALT High, but lowest since 1999.

    Glucose still high (128)

    Went on low carb diet just after this bloodwork. Dropped 15 pounds, then gained 4 back due to having to deal with a death in the family - so net 11 pounds down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnotherOldGuy View Post
    After a while on 2ml of 5%. Bloodwork done 3hrs after applying.

    No other supplementation except 25mg DHEA 2x a day, Fish oil, Flax oil, LiverCare, CoQ10,E, and misc other vitamins.

    First time BioT and FreeT in range!! WoooWooo!

    FreeT .....70.1pg/mL (ref range 46.0-224.0)
    BioAvail T..... 135 ng/dL (ref range 110-575)
    TotalT.....586 ng/dL (ref range 250-1100)
    SHBG ..... 41 nmol/L (ref range 15-49)
    Albunim,Serum .....4.2 g/dL (ref range 3.6-5.1)
    Estradiol 25 (range <=29)

    psa 0.4 (<=4.0)





    AST & ALT High, but lowest since 1999.

    Glucose still high (128)

    Went on low carb diet just after this bloodwork. Dropped 15 pounds, then gained 4 back due to having to deal with a death in the family - so net 11 pounds down.

    You need FreeT
    per dr Shippen
    freeT~250
    per Dr Delgado
    FreeT~300
    to get FreeT~300
    when you have
    SHBG=41
    use dr Shippen's chart
    TT~1250
    per post #40
    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007
    you need
    weekly dose Depo-T 185mg
    using E3D schedule
    =185/200/7*3=0.396=40 units on insuline syringe
    that is preliminary dose, recheck via blood test in 2-3 months, adjust dose accordingly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    I have wrote on this extensively before.

    The SHBG assay in itself is extremely unreliable and inaccurate, so to base a HRT protocol or T dosing upon an invalid assay is completely pointless. Guess what will happen if you start shooting up 160mg of T a week anyways - your SHBG will go down. So, if we wanted to follow JansZ idea, your gonna end up injecting less T anyways once SHBG goes down right? Either way, I don't recommend it.

    Start with an average of 5mg of T a day via compounding cream. Adjust per BW.
    How? Is there a formula? Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by b4554 View Post
    How? Is there a formula? Thanks
    One wants to shoot for BW of healthy men ages 21 - 25

    TT, FT top 1/3 of range

    E2 Generally 17 - 25

    Start at 5g

    Plenty have had great success at that dose

    Adjust per BW results.

    You may need to increase
  

  
 

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