Long term use of HCG safe?

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  1. Long term use of HCG safe?


    Hello, all, I am new on the board and have to say this is by far and away the most mature board on this subject I have seen, especially with the contributions of Dr. John with whom I am planning on arranging a consultation through my PCP.

    That said, I am curios about the use of HCG as an adjunct therapy to TRT.

    I have heard many different schools of thought ranging from doing it once (or more) a week to a month long cycle every few months and in lieu of testosterone during that period.

    My total T at age 36 is only 425 and I'm symptomatic) I want to make sure I understand the nuances, as I have heard that HCG can cause cancer (???) and I believe my congenital anamoly increases my chances for same.

    Also, if anyone knows, is the long term use of arimidex safe? Are these two adjunct therapies commonly used long term for HRT?

    Thanks in advance!


  2. Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    Hello, all, I am new on the board and have to say this is by far and away the most mature board on this subject I have seen, especially with the contributions of Dr. John with whom I am planning on arranging a consultation through my PCP.

    That said, I am curios about the use of HCG as an adjunct therapy to TRT.

    I have heard many different schools of thought ranging from doing it once (or more) a week to a month long cycle every few months and in lieu of testosterone during that period.

    Being that this may be a lifelong thing for me (had a surgically corrected undescended testicle at age 10, my total T at age 36 is only 425 and I'm symptomatic) I want to make sure I understand the nuances, as I have heard that HCG can cause cancer (???) and I believe my congenital anamoly increases my chances for same.

    Also, if anyone knows, is the long term use of arimidex safe? Are these two adjunct therapies commonly used long term for HRT?

    Thanks in advance!
    Hard to say, I think both HCG and Arimidex are safe when used in doses mostly used for TRT.

    Human Growth Hormone, HGH,
    I have cancer, liposarcoma.
    Some cancers are promoted by HGH, my cancer is within that group, I will not use HGH.

    All this is rather cutting edge, hard to find definitive information.

    Lately there was a thread on Sermorelin.

    Sermorelin..better than HGH?

    Sermorelin induces body to produce its own HGH.

    It is going to be tougher and tougher to figure out.
    ============================== ================

    With your TotalT=425 you have little choice, you have to use testosterone.
    You do have certain amount of choice about HCG.
    If you do not care about preserwing fertility, do not use HCG, your testis will shrink but that is cosmetics at this point.

    Make sure that you get more thorough test than just testosterone, usually people who have low T shortly find out about other problems that they have.

    Start with good blood test. Use mine list here, post #44.
    You may want to peruse the whole thread.
    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Often people start on Tgels, creams etc. Transdermals do not work for certain group of people. For some they work.
    Try to spend as liitle time as possible on transdermals.
    If you find they do not work for you go ASAP for injections.
    Make sure they are SubQ 31ga needles, rather than big nails.
    Here usualy doc may want to give you only smal dose of Testosterone, no HCG and se if that would work.
    After your testis are shrunk, they make attempt at reviwing them, give you script for HCG.

    I wish I could have started with higher dose of T and HCG righ away.

    On my thread:
    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007
    I figured out how to get to proper injected T-dose quicker.
    You need to have SHBG value to figure that out.

    When time comes I can help you figure out your initial dose.

    Make sure you do long blood test, will save you tons of grief.
    •   
       


  3. "Sermorelin induces body to produce its own HGH.

    It is going to be tougher and tougher to figure out"

    I wonder if this will make you exempt JansZ, and safe to use.

    Your total QOL will go up drastically with a proper IGF-1 level. This is as big of a piece to the puzzle as T and E.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post

    With your TotalT=425 you have little choice, you have to use testosterone.


    Here's what I had then, I am calling Dr. Crisler today:

    TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL: 455 (400 - 1080 ng/dl)
    TESTOSTERONE, FREE: 111.3 (47.0 - 244 pg/ml)
    TESTOSTERONE, % FREE: 2.4 (1.6 - 2.9%)
    SHBG 18 (11-80 nmol/L)
    TSH 3.12 (.35 - 5.50 uIU/mL)
    HGB A1C 5.5 (0 - 5.9%)

    CHOLESTEROL 253**
    TRIGLYCERIDES 255**
    HDL 40
    LDL 162

    PSA .74 (0 - 4.00 ng/mL)
    PSA, FREE 0.31 ng/mL

  5. Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    And I think even that may be exaggerated as when I had the labs drawn I was on finasteride, and as I understand it, finasteride can increase your total test.

    Here's what I had then, I am calling Dr. Crisler today:

    TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL: 455 (400 - 1080 ng/dl)
    TESTOSTERONE, FREE: 111.3 (47.0 - 244 pg/ml)
    TESTOSTERONE, % FREE: 2.4 (1.6 - 2.9%)
    SHBG 18 (11-80 nmol/L)
    TSH 3.12 (.35 - 5.50 uIU/mL)
    HGB A1C 5.5 (0 - 5.9%)

    CHOLESTEROL 253**
    TRIGLYCERIDES 255**
    HDL 40
    LDL 162

    PSA .74 (0 - 4.00 ng/mL)
    PSA, FREE 0.31 ng/mL
    Some people (small %%%) get really screwed by finasteride.
    Wonder what makes the difference.
    I used to use Proscar and Avodart.
    When I stopped Procar or Avodart, the DHT went up, so I think I am not in that group.
    •   
       


  6. Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Some people (small %%%) get really screwed by finasteride.
    Wonder what makes the difference.
    I used to use Proscar and Avodart.
    When I stopped Procar or Avodart, the DHT went up, so I think I am not in that group.
    Possibly people with moderate to low DHT in first place.

    Plenty like this.

    DHT gets driven into ground. All sorts of issue arise.

  7. Jansz: You stated above that HCG causes your testes to shrink and hampers fertility. Is that right? I thought exogenous Test would cause this and HCG (LH) would keep the testes going throughout. In fact, one doctor recommended androgel for low test coupled with repronex (FSH/LH) to keep fertility high. An expensive propostion.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Pace2 View Post
    Jansz: You stated above that HCG causes your testes to shrink and hampers fertility. Is that right? I thought exogenous Test would cause this and HCG (LH) would keep the testes going throughout. In fact, one doctor recommended androgel for low test coupled with repronex (FSH/LH) to keep fertility high. An expensive propostion.
    Hopefully I did not say that (but I am 67yo so there is always possibility of early senility).
    The other possibility may be that my glass with Merlot was little to big, then may be your glass was big.

    When making such statements it is good to first provide quote and link where that quote came from.
    ----------------------------------------

    When I was on Androgel only, for few years, my testis shrunk to nothing, as expected.

    I started HCG in feb 2007 and within a month size of my testis came back.

    I started HCG E2D 250iu in Feb 2007.
    Since 6/19/2007 I am on 500iu E3D, possibly two days free of HCG makes my testis fluctuate hardness wise. They are newer as hard as they used to be in my hey days.

    But the pines works all right, so I do not worry too much.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Pace2 View Post
    Jansz: You stated above that HCG causes your testes to shrink and hampers fertility. Is that right? I thought exogenous Test would cause this and HCG (LH) would keep the testes going throughout. In fact, one doctor recommended androgel for low test coupled with repronex (FSH/LH) to keep fertility high. An expensive propostion.
    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    You do have certain amount of choice about HCG.
    If you do not care about preserwing fertility, do not use HCG, your testis will shrink but that is cosmetics at this point.
    The exogenous test causes shut down (reduced LH)and shrinkage. The HCG stimulates LH and promotes testies function. This may increase size and improve fertility.

    I think that is what he said.

    I do not use HCG as I have no need for fertility and can live with some testie atrophy, but I have seen some increase in size and ejaculate volume using USPLabs PowerFULL. It proported to raises test by stimulating LH. It has made an improvement in mood and sense of well being.
    I have no enemies. My friends intensely despise me.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by B5150 View Post
    The HCG stimulates LH and promotes testies function.
    This is nit picking, but I believe what B5150 meant to say is that HCG acts as a LH analog and stimulates the interstitial cells in the testis. It does not stimulate LH production.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by B5150 View Post
    , but I have seen some increase in size and ejaculate volume using USPLabs PowerFULL. It proported to raises test by stimulating LH. It has made an improvement in mood and sense of well being.
    Elaborate further. What ingredients are in product?

    Anything that stimulaltes a release of LH will prevent testicular shutdown.

    There are a few products that come to mind.

    One is tribulus, Another is resveratrol. I was always under the impression that neither is strong enought to equal hcG.

    Another question - Are you fertile on T without hcg? This would be a nice side bonus to many if one became infertile.

  12. In the case of secondary hypogonadism, if fertility on a long-term basis is desired but on a short-term basis it is not, is it better to run to run hCg while on test or not?

  13. I cannot say that it equates to HCG but anecdotally I am responding with improved testie size, scrotal volume and ejaculate volume.

    My LH was diminshed weeks after beginning TRT. I have not since had any bloodwork for LH with TRT or PowerFULL.

    I was fertile before TRT and have no idea after. I also have a vasectomy.

    PowerFULL (NEW!)(90 caps) By USPLabs
    I have no enemies. My friends intensely despise me.

  14. 5150, did you get any blood work done while using PowerFULL and what were the results of that?

  15. Quote Originally Posted by RugbyHooligan View Post
    5150, did you get any blood work done while using PowerFULL and what were the results of that?
    Quote Originally Posted by B5150 View Post
    I have not since had any bloodwork for LH with TRT or PowerFULL.
    No
    I have no enemies. My friends intensely despise me.

  16. my one friend said long term use of HCG can make you look like a cavemen, like big head and changes the way you look in a bad way

  17. Quote Originally Posted by engival View Post
    my one friend said long term use of HCG can make you look like a cavemen, like big head and changes the way you look in a bad way
    I bet hes thinking HGH. Its called acromegaly and judging from pics of bodybuilders who use it and pics of people with the disorder, it must require ridiculous doses of the stuff.

  18. ok thanx for clearing that up for me.

  19. haha 5150, I guess it would help for me to read more thoroughly, eh?

    thanks, I may try this stuff out and see how it works

  20. So the general consensus is that, with TRT it's better to use HcG continually throughout the treatment as opposed to sporadically?

    Why? Can anyone point me to some articles/med journals?

  21. Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    So the general consensus is that, with TRT it's better to use HcG continually throughout the treatment as opposed to sporadically?

    Why? Can anyone point me to some articles/med journals?
    The first thing about LH cells in the body and places we don't know about are way we need to use HCG be it your Primary or Secondary. Doing TRT shuts down the LH messages from your Pituitary this means any LH receptors including those we do not know about yet go unstimulated. This is way a lot of men get a feeling of well being when they add HCG to there TRT.

    I just can't see not doing HCG it to me is not about the size of my testis it is about LH receptors not working without HCG.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Elaborate further. What ingredients are in product?

    Anything that stimulaltes a release of LH will prevent testicular shutdown.

    There are a few products that come to mind.

    One is tribulus, Another is resveratrol. I was always under the impression that neither is strong enought to equal hcG.

    Another question - Are you fertile on T without hcg? This would be a nice side bonus to many if one became infertile.
    Quote Originally Posted by B5150 View Post
    Here is USPLAbs' statement on the active:
    Quote Originally Posted by USPLabs View Post
    There are 2 indian studies that suggest elevated testosterone on both herbs that are not published, and we came up with the equivalent of 100mgs which is a very low number.

    by stimulating LH is the proposed mechanism.

    The PowerFULL Saponingens are indepedantly anabolic and 1-c elevates HGH.
    I have no enemies. My friends intensely despise me.

  23. Phil, that is an excellent point about HCG stimulating other LH receptors. Never thought about that but it makes sense.

    To answer the original question, most of us are using HCG all the time while on T replacement. We have not found any credible evidence that I know about that it may cause cancer or any other problems. Jsut keep your dose low. The lower you can get away with the better because if you dose too high your testicles will eventually become desensitized to it. The max dose is 500 iu per day but most are doing a lot less than that. Dr. Shippen started me on 300 iu three times a week. If you start there you can adjust your dose up or down depending on lab results.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by farmerjohn View Post
    Phil, that is an excellent point about HCG stimulating other LH receptors. Never thought about that but it makes sense.

    To answer the original question, most of us are using HCG all the time while on T replacement. We have not found any credible evidence that I know about that it may cause cancer or any other problems. Jsut keep your dose low. The lower you can get away with the better because if you dose too high your testicles will eventually become desensitized to it. The max dose is 500 iu per day but most are doing a lot less than that. Dr. Shippen started me on 300 iu three times a week. If you start there you can adjust your dose up or down depending on lab results.
    "The max dose is 500 iu per day"

    That would be a max 500iu /day, every day.

    That is how I understood dr John's
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-...ocol-john.html

    I am doing 500iu E3D
    so my hcg shots coincide with my T shots, for convenience.

    Previusly, until june 19/07 I was on E2D 250iu

    I see fluctuations in consistency/hardness of my testicles now.
    The E2D was better for testicles but since I do not worry about fertility and my testicles are not producing T (I think), I let the convinience part decide on my schedule.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by farmerjohn View Post
    Phil, that is an excellent point about HCG stimulating other LH receptors. Never thought about that but it makes sense.

    To answer the original question, most of us are using HCG all the time while on T replacement. We have not found any credible evidence that I know about that it may cause cancer or any other problems. Jsut keep your dose low. The lower you can get away with the better because if you dose too high your testicles will eventually become desensitized to it. The max dose is 500 iu per day but most are doing a lot less than that. Dr. Shippen started me on 300 iu three times a week. If you start there you can adjust your dose up or down depending on lab results.
    Phil: I agree, that is an excellent point about the HcG. I had heretofore only thought about it in the context of what it was doing to maintain testicular function.

    FarmerJohn: Thanks for an answer. It's been a long road just in getting to the testosterone question. Now I find out there's about a dozen more I need to consider!!

    Did the HcG do anything for you other than help with testicular function? i.e. did it improve your mood?
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