Help, my endo says I'm crazy

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    Angry Help, my endo says I'm crazy


    Hello All,
    I'm a new ar***** to TRT. I'm 54 and tested 332 for Total T, have had all the symptoms for years, so my paid doctor gave me script for Androgel 10mg a day. I filled it using my primary care doc at Kaiser (hmo). I went to a private endo who let me try Testim, which worked even better (AG 800 Testim 1100), but I asked for injections to make things easier and less transferable. That was a month or so ago, and my Kaiser primary doctor wanted me to see an endo there (to cover himself on writing these prescriptions) What a disheartening visit!

    Doctor Tong told me that Testosterone levels of 300 (and an earlier test of 400 in early morning) were absolutely normal, and that my symptoms, foggy head, memory challenges, lower libido and so on were simply signs of stress and depression. "There is NO EVIDENCE," he said, "that a testosterone level of 800-1100 is any better than one of 300. I went to try and get HCG for my softening, shrinking jewels, but he told me to wean myself from the test and take anti-depressants. He sort of smirked when I told him I use protein powder, like I was some misguided juicer on protein, and he said I would wreck my liver. He claimed that the clinics specializing in this are motivated by a hunger for profits, and that they assume that people need to have the hormones of a 25 year old.

    I'm using 100-150mg of T-cyp a week (working with outside endo on dosage and timing) and take zinc 50mg a day and DIM as well, although I've never had symptoms of gyno or a blood levels test for same. Kaiser's endo will now squelch my ability to get my scripts filled cheaply I'm afraid. My only other problem (other than testicles shutting down) is that I'm often red-faced and blushing. Dr.Tong says I probably have high hemoglobin caused by the injections.

    I asked about all of you, why are you feeling better, stronger, more sexually confident, and more alert, and Dr. Tong said it was from the placebo effect, and reiterated that there is no evidence one would feel better at 800 compared to 300. He says that stress will lower one's T levels and said those in boot camp have almost no testosterone at the time.

    Now I really AM depressed.

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    Stork: I feel your pain. What a frustrating situation.

    Can you get some lab work done? Have you had any lab work done? I would hazard a guess that the use of Testosterone may require use of an aromatase inhibitor or perhaps even high estrogen was suppressing your levels from the beginning.

    Sonny
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    Stop wasting time trying to convince him otherwise and find a new Dr. He's wrong about the T, but also there are many other tests you need run - Thyroid, Adrenals, Estradiol, SHBG, etc.

    You're NOT crazy, he is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stork View Post
    Hello All,
    I'm a new ar***** to TRT. I'm 54 and tested 332 for Total T, have had all the symptoms for years, so my paid doctor gave me script for Androgel 10mg a day. I filled it using my primary care doc at Kaiser (hmo). I went to a private endo who let me try Testim, which worked even better (AG 800 Testim 1100), but I asked for injections to make things easier and less transferable. That was a month or so ago, and my Kaiser primary doctor wanted me to see an endo there (to cover himself on writing these prescriptions) What a disheartening visit!

    Doctor Tong told me that Testosterone levels of 300 (and an earlier test of 400 in early morning) were absolutely normal, and that my symptoms, foggy head, memory challenges, lower libido and so on were simply signs of stress and depression. "There is NO EVIDENCE," he said, "that a testosterone level of 800-1100 is any better than one of 300. I went to try and get HCG for my softening, shrinking jewels, but he told me to wean myself from the test and take anti-depressants. He sort of smirked when I told him I use protein powder, like I was some misguided juicer on protein, and he said I would wreck my liver. He claimed that the clinics specializing in this are motivated by a hunger for profits, and that they assume that people need to have the hormones of a 25 year old.

    I'm using 100-150mg of T-cyp a week (working with outside endo on dosage and timing) and take zinc 50mg a day and DIM as well, although I've never had symptoms of gyno or a blood levels test for same. Kaiser's endo will now squelch my ability to get my scripts filled cheaply I'm afraid. My only other problem (other than testicles shutting down) is that I'm often red-faced and blushing. Dr.Tong says I probably have high hemoglobin caused by the injections.

    I asked about all of you, why are you feeling better, stronger, more sexually confident, and more alert, and Dr. Tong said it was from the placebo effect, and reiterated that there is no evidence one would feel better at 800 compared to 300. He says that stress will lower one's T levels and said those in boot camp have almost no testosterone at the time.

    Now I really AM depressed.
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    Thumbs up


    Thank you for responding. I'll use Kaiser for cheap blood tests I suppose. I'm waiting to get my T levels tested with my paid endo to make sure it's in a healthy range. Has anyone ever had a blushing (hot flash) response? It's odd that the Kaiser doc was not concerned enough about my health to test my hemoglobin huh?

    I'm "guessing" the DIM supplement may be helping on the estrogen metabolizing, having read about it on another forum. Of course "guessing" is no approach.

    By the way, I've lost my brain fog months ago and have, with the injections, found some more strength at the gym after years and years of no gains. My mood is wonderful when the T is either high or in the process of elevating. Libido has been up and down but performance has been UP. Thanks again for responding.
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    I have experienced the hot flashes before as well. I have read Dr. Mariano mentioned that low SHBG can cause the hormones to destruct faster and the rapid destruction of the Estrogens cause the hot flashes, same as in women.

    So your T is likely driving your SHBG low which is causing the hot flashes as your estrogen is being metabolized faster. Meanwhile your Estrogens (particularly E2) is being rasied as a result of T shots as well.

    As you'll see it's a delicate balance so all the more important to get a good Dr.

    ---
    Quote Originally Posted by Stork View Post
    Thank you for responding. I'll use Kaiser for cheap blood tests I suppose. I'm waiting to get my T levels tested with my paid endo to make sure it's in a healthy range. Has anyone ever had a blushing (hot flash) response? It's odd that the Kaiser doc was not concerned enough about my health to test my hemoglobin huh?

    I'm "guessing" the DIM supplement may be helping on the estrogen metabolizing, having read about it on another forum. Of course "guessing" is no approach.

    By the way, I've lost my brain fog months ago and have, with the injections, found some more strength at the gym after years and years of no gains. My mood is wonderful when the T is either high or in the process of elevating. Libido has been up and down but performance has been UP. Thanks again for responding.
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    "and Dr. Tong said it was from the placebo effect, and reiterated that there is no evidence one would feel better at 800 compared to 300."

    Tell Dr Tong congradulations, he may be the most idiotic one yet
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    Thanks Wondering and Plymouth City,
    I'll get my estrogen tested this week...
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    wow wow wow

    you need to take in the numerous studies that have been done to show him that normal test levels are more healthy than low
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    What's your blood pressure?
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    Hey,
    My Blood Pressure today was 123/78 that day, a little lower than normal, and I was red-faced during the consultation.
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    I have Kaiser too and they are idiots. They are trying to tell me to "drive my cholesterol as low as possible" ie...to zero???? And that a cortisol level of 4 (range 4-50) is normal.

    They will however...be happy to give you lipitor, treat you for sleep apnea (wheteher you have it or not) and give you anti depressants all day long.
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    Dr Tong told me that if someone has total Test at 100, raising his level to 3-400 would be great. I think "normal" sometimes means "alive" with some doctors.
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    I would run from them.....you cant convince an idiot he is an idiot.

    Like the saying goes "If you were stupid how would you know?"

    I cant leave until October 1 but will not be there on October 2.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stork View Post
    Hello All,
    I'm a new ar***** to TRT. I'm 54 and tested 332 for Total T, have had all the symptoms for years, so my paid doctor gave me script for Androgel 10mg a day. I filled it using my primary care doc at Kaiser (hmo). I went to a private endo who let me try Testim, which worked even better (AG 800 Testim 1100), but I asked for injections to make things easier and less transferable. That was a month or so ago, and my Kaiser primary doctor wanted me to see an endo there (to cover himself on writing these prescriptions) What a disheartening visit!

    Doctor Tong told me that Testosterone levels of 300 (and an earlier test of 400 in early morning) were absolutely normal, and that my symptoms, foggy head, memory challenges, lower libido and so on were simply signs of stress and depression. "There is NO EVIDENCE," he said, "that a testosterone level of 800-1100 is any better than one of 300. I went to try and get HCG for my softening, shrinking jewels, but he told me to wean myself from the test and take anti-depressants. He sort of smirked when I told him I use protein powder, like I was some misguided juicer on protein, and he said I would wreck my liver. He claimed that the clinics specializing in this are motivated by a hunger for profits, and that they assume that people need to have the hormones of a 25 year old.

    I'm using 100-150mg of T-cyp a week (working with outside endo on dosage and timing) and take zinc 50mg a day and DIM as well, although I've never had symptoms of gyno or a blood levels test for same. Kaiser's endo will now squelch my ability to get my scripts filled cheaply I'm afraid. My only other problem (other than testicles shutting down) is that I'm often red-faced and blushing. Dr.Tong says I probably have high hemoglobin caused by the injections.

    I asked about all of you, why are you feeling better, stronger, more sexually confident, and more alert, and Dr. Tong said it was from the placebo effect, and reiterated that there is no evidence one would feel better at 800 compared to 300. He says that stress will lower one's T levels and said those in boot camp have almost no testosterone at the time.

    Now I really AM depressed.
    I sympatize with your problem, but that only help you a very little.
    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007

    Read thru my thread.
    Get blood test as close as possible to one listed in post #44

    If you have to, you can buy scripts from
    lef.org
    http://www.lef.org/bloodtest/

    When you get results of blood tests post them here, name, number, units, ranges.

    If you have your SHBG available I can calculate your aproximate initial dose of testosterone when on injections.
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    Endos are silly:

    Some quotes from mine:

    "your hotflashes, fatigue, erectile disfunction are from serotonin imbalance, yes i like google, go search 'serotonin syndrome' and come back to me"

    same doctor:

    "the human body is only designed to live to its 30s (true) you are just experiencing all the old age stuff sooner in life"
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsHectic View Post

    "the human body is only designed to live to its 30s (true) you are just experiencing all the old age stuff sooner in life"
    OMG
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    Quote Originally Posted by CF10 View Post
    OMG
    OMG at 1st or 2nd part of what he said???
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsHectic View Post
    OMG at 1st or 2nd part of what he said???
    The part about how we are only supposed to live till 30. Where did he get that idea?

    EDIT: Or is that really true, hence the (true) part of the sentence. I interpretted that as meaning (true story). Correct me if I'm wrong
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I sympatize with your problem, but that only help you a very little.
    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007

    Read thru my thread.
    Get blood test as close as possible to one listed in post #44

    If you have to, you can buy scripts from
    lef.org
    http://www.lef.org/bloodtest/

    When you get results of blood tests post them here, name, number, units, ranges.

    If you have your SHBG available I can calculate your aproximate initial dose of testosterone when on injections.
    Thank you. I'll read it all and write it down. It may take a week or two to have my Kaiser Primary Care Doctor order the tests. He'll do it I believe.. If not, on to plan B.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wondering View Post
    I have experienced the hot flashes before as well. I have read Dr. Mariano mentioned that low SHBG can cause the hormones to destruct faster and the rapid destruction of the Estrogens cause the hot flashes, same as in women.

    So your T is likely driving your SHBG low which is causing the hot flashes as your estrogen is being metabolized faster. Meanwhile your Estrogens (particularly E2) is being rasied as a result of T shots as well.

    As you'll see it's a delicate balance so all the more important to get a good Dr.

    ---
    Wondering,
    I'm a little confused how my estrogens are being driven too low, and conversely, are rising. What would one do to slow the SHBG decline?
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    Quote Originally Posted by CF10 View Post
    The part about how we are only supposed to live till 30. Where did he get that idea?

    EDIT: Or is that really true, hence the (true) part of the sentence. I interpretted that as meaning (true story). Correct me if I'm wrong
    I put (true) in there because it is actually true.
    Cavemen lived until about 20. I just saw a graph that showed life expectancy in 1840 was 45, now its 80-85.
    And they had surgery in 1840! imagine in BC times before anesthetic and the scalpel.

    Its not hard to believe when you think about it, a lot of people would be dieing from infections including dental infections, things that can easily be imunised now, old surgical techniques(blood loss, lock jaw, etc), STDs which are now curable etc.
    It makes sense, you hit puberty before your a teenager, your fertility starts dropping in your mid to late 20s, society has just adapted for a longer lifespan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsHectic View Post
    I put (true) in there because it is actually true.
    Cavemen lived until about 20. I just saw a graph that showed life expectancy in 1840 was 45, now its 80-85.
    And they had surgery in 1840! imagine in BC times before anesthetic and the scalpel.

    Its not hard to believe when you think about it, a lot of people would be dieing from infections including dental infections, things that can easily be imunised now, old surgical techniques(blood loss, lock jaw, etc), STDs which are now curable etc.
    It makes sense, you hit puberty before your a teenager, your fertility starts dropping in your mid to late 20s, society has just adapted for a longer lifespan.
    lifespan's a funny thing, and not necessarily linear in terms of human progress. Certain societies in the past had lifespans easily to 60-80 years both in eastern and western cultures. Others have had lifespans of 20-40, even nowadays.

    There are so many factors involved that any doc who tells you humans are only "expected to live to 30" or some bull**** should be slapped upside the head. And to say that to a patient is utterly ludicrous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottyo View Post
    lifespan's a funny thing, and not necessarily linear in terms of human progress. Certain societies in the past had lifespans easily to 60-80 years both in eastern and western cultures. Others have had lifespans of 20-40, even nowadays.

    There are so many factors involved that any doc who tells you humans are only "expected to live to 30" or some bull**** should be slapped upside the head. And to say that to a patient is utterly ludicrous.
    The reason I found it silly was that he expected me to accept it as an excuse for feeling like crap and having a poorer quality of life. But I had heard of this before he actually mentioned it, generally speaking its safe to say human lifespan with medicine and science aside is in the ballpark of the 30s.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_ex...and_aging_rate
  

  
 

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