Anyman's personal journal: May it help me and others to follow

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    Anyman's personal journal: May it help me and others to follow


    OK, here we go: As of this date, 8/7/07, I am a few months short of 44 and am apparently suffering from secondary hypogonadism. I have only been aware of the condition for less than 1 year, but now relaize it was probably years in the making. My goal is to get better and let me experiences help others similarly situated avoid much of the BS and pitfalls I've suffered.

    I became aware of my problem last fall when I switched from 1 1/2 yrs of Paxil to Wellbutrin due to weight gain. Paxil has been prescribed for general irritability, anxiety and heretofor unknown instances of PE. After switching to WB it soon felt like a switch got turned off as all of a sudden, w/i 2 weeks on WB. erections were non existent, which for me is damn near worse than death.

    I had been on Propecia for about a month max a good 7-8 + yrs prior. Dropped it when erectile issues surfaced and recovered-or so I thought. On reflection I realize that erectile quality and general energy levels had been dropping over the preceeding 2-3 years, which is why the Paxil, etc was suggested. I have no proof as to what might have caused what, although I blame the Propecia and W/B.

    On a hunch I had my T tested in the fall of 2006 and there it was: 200. FSH and LH were both low (2 or less). I knew next to nothing and saw a local Urologist, who suggested Androgel. I knew next to nothing so I went along w/ it. Net result after 1 & 2X/day trials: 300. Research revealed the ball-shrinking issue and dependency issues, so I visited an Endo, who was even more useless.

    Time spent on these boards and a desire to get to the root cause led me to Dr. Shippen, who is trying hcg, which thus far has only given me bouts of depression, a general malaise and near constant fatigue.

    The blood tests I list are a compilation of different ones taken post Androgel over a roughly 4-6 week time this Spring. They're a mix of what the Dr. @ Mass Gen'l wanted, Dr Shippen wanted and what I read about here.

    The bottom line is that I am trying to educate myself so I know what to look for symptom wise (might make for more accurate diagnosis), ask better questions and be a partner in an eventual recovery. I am fully aware that my mental state stinks, which I view as part of the problem. I can detach myself, so to speak, and look at myself from a 3rd party prespective. I don't like what I see: A tired, frustrated, PO'd at the world, sometimes scared and angry once strong 43 yr old watching everything I've worked for at risk and terrified of having to live the rest of my life like this. Yeah, I know this is a but "heavy", but I need to be honest with myself in order to find a way out. Sometimes I feel like life did this to me:

    I very much appreciate the extremely helpful input and help given me by the guys here. Wouldn't have made it this far w/o it.

    Here we go in chronological order:

    Total/free T (test 1: 4/10/07 Lab work for possible clinical trial which I did not do)

    Total T 205
    % Free T 5.7
    Free T 11.6 (5-21)
    E2 9.1 (0-35 pg/ml)
    FSH 2 (1-15)
    LH 2 (2-12)
    DHT 10.28 (no range given)
    Prolactin 6 (2-18)


    Total/free T (test 2: 4/12/07 Lab work w/ Quest)

    Total T: 185
    % free T 2.0 (1-2.7)
    Free T 37.3 (50-210) Noted "low"
    FSH: 1.8 (1.8-8.0)
    LH: 2.0 (1.5-9.3)
    E2 <32 (doesn't say much)
    Prolctn 8.6 (2-18)
    SHBG 11 (8-46)


    MISC RESULTS FROM 4/07:

    Thyroid:

    TSH .98 (.40-5.5)
    T4 free 1.1 (.8-1.8)
    T3 free 297 (230-420)

    Cortisol (24 hr test)

    Cortisol: 44.6
    Cort Free (24hr) 66.9 (5-50) ** seems high **

    Cholesterol

    Cholstrl 160 (162-280)
    Trigylc 257 (55-327)
    HDL 23 (27-67)
    LDL 86 (87-186)

    This seems to be warning me about metabolic syndrome unless I fix this......

    RESULTS POST June 2007 CLOMID TEST W/ DR. SHIPPEN:

    Test. 319 (up from avg of 200)
    FSH 2.4 (up from 1.8-2)
    LH 5.0 (up from 2)
    DHEAS 250 (241-827)
    DHT 18 (25-75)
    E2 <32 (<52 Dr did NOT ask for sens. test)

    Cortisol: 18.5 (4-22 Once again, cort is high)

    Next blood work: Mid August

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    Post your current routine of medicines, supplements, doses, when this routine started, what blood tests prompted this routine.
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    How long ago did you see Dr. Shippen? When are you scheduled to go back? Did he suggest your E2 is high?
    •   
       

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    I saw him once in mid July and will be consulting again in early Sept.


    Quote Originally Posted by Undone View Post
    How long ago did you see Dr. Shippen? When are you scheduled to go back? Did he suggest your E2 is high?
    Just had blood drawn today. Hope to have results in a few weeks. The Dr will get his copy quicker, by the patient copy takes longer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anyman View Post
    Just had blood drawn today. Hope to have results in a few weeks. The Dr will get his copy quicker, by the patient copy takes longer.
    Post all of the results here when you get them.
    Name, number, units, range, any other description
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    OK- so how can one be "secondary" and hcg apparently not work?


    Upon my return from a few days away I saw an envelope from Quest with my 3 week post start of hcg blood work drawn a week ago. Damn--was I ever disappointed. No change whatsoever. T still low at 224. FSH and LH still barely registering (I expected this). Estradiol is still under 32.

    Here are the results:

    Total T: 224 (241-827)
    LH: .2 (1.5-9.3)
    FSH: .7 (1.6-8.0)
    Estradiol: <32 (<52)

    Here are some prior blood results for comparison:

    Total/free T (test 1: 4/10/07 Lab work for possible clinical trial which I did not do)

    Total T 205
    % Free T 5.7
    Free T 11.6 (5-21)
    E2 9.1 (0-35 pg/ml)
    FSH 2 (1-15)
    LH 2 (2-12)
    DHT 10.28 (no range given)
    Prolactin 6 (2-18)

    RESULTS POST June 2007 CLOMID TEST:

    Test. 319 (up from avg of 200)
    FSH 2.4 (up from 1.8-2)
    LH 5.0 (up from 2)
    DHEAS 250 (241-827)
    DHT 18 (25-75)
    E2 <32 (<52 Dr did NOT ask for sens. test

    Not sure what to think. I had or have all the indicia of being secondary: Low FSH, low LH and low T. How can I be truly secondary and see no change after 3 weeks on hcg? Put simply, WTF??

    After opening the results I feel like I've been kicked in what's left of my balls. Is it possible for a person to be BOTH primary and secondary? How the hell could THAT have happened? Or, perhaps, all the hcg did was raise my E and nothing more. This might be a possibility as clomid DID raise my T by blocking E. Also, the depression which started shortly after starting hcg can be the result of elevated E. Either way, how could clomid show some improvement while hcg did not? I really have no idea and could use some input.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anyman View Post
    Upon my return from a few days away I saw an envelope from Quest with my 3 week post start of hcg blood work drawn a week ago. Damn--was I ever disappointed. No change whatsoever. T still low at 224. FSH and LH still barely registering (I expected this). Estradiol is still under 32.

    Here are the results:

    Total T: 224 (241-827)
    LH: .2 (1.5-9.3)
    FSH: .7 (1.6-8.0)
    Estradiol: <32 (<52)

    Here are some prior blood results for comparison:

    Total/free T (test 1: 4/10/07 Lab work for possible clinical trial which I did not do)

    Total T 205
    % Free T 5.7
    Free T 11.6 (5-21)
    E2 9.1 (0-35 pg/ml)
    FSH 2 (1-15)
    LH 2 (2-12)
    DHT 10.28 (no range given)
    Prolactin 6 (2-18)

    RESULTS POST June 2007 CLOMID TEST:

    Test. 319 (up from avg of 200)
    FSH 2.4 (up from 1.8-2)
    LH 5.0 (up from 2)
    DHEAS 250 (241-827)
    DHT 18 (25-75)
    E2 <32 (<52 Dr did NOT ask for sens. test

    Not sure what to think. I had or have all the indicia of being secondary: Low FSH, low LH and low T. How can I be truly secondary and see no change after 3 weeks on hcg? Put simply, WTF??

    After opening the results I feel like I've been kicked in what's left of my balls. Is it possible for a person to be BOTH primary and secondary? How the hell could THAT have happened? Or, perhaps, all the hcg did was raise my E and nothing more. This might be a possibility as clomid DID raise my T by blocking E. Also, the depression which started shortly after starting hcg can be the result of elevated E. Either way, how could clomid show some improvement while hcg did not? I really have no idea and could use some input.
    In my view you did the only valid test, you have used hcg.
    Theoretically, had you had Clomid working for you all it would mean that you would have now script for HCG.
    Clomid is not long term solution, even if possibly it works.
    HCG is long term.

    Now you know what you need to know.
    Your testis when stimulated by hcg do not produce any more Testosterone.

    This is good decission point to be at.
    Look for your next option.

    (Personally, if you want to go thru next agony, go and test how transdermals work or not work, for you).

    With my past history, I would go straight for Depo-T shots plus HCG for the cosmetic part.

    Your balls still may be fertile, do not assume you are not fertile.

    Your DHT looks low.

    Your E2 test looks low and unfamiliar.
    -----------------------------------------------
    T4 free 1.1 (.8-1.8)
    T3 free 297 (230-420)

    When are you going to start Armour,
    ------------------------------------------------
    Lots of supplements, fish oils and what not for your low cholesterol.

    I am sure prescription compounded pregnenolone cream would help you.
    100mg/1gram, use 1gram/day
    blood test, increase dose if not high enough
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    I posted this in your other thread but I believe it applies here as well.

    Anyman - Classic case of how "More" is not "Better".

    Dr John believes, and given his caseload of patients to back himself upon, I agree, that " I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients"

    That is 500Iu per week. You are taking three times that dose. It is apparent that taking more hcG to make up for a lack of T will not work.

    Your baseline T production is just not up to par and exogenous T must be administered.

    I don't thin it is an issue of hcG conversion to estrogen. hcG in itself does not aromatize into estrogen. it is a rise in T that aromitzes into E, and that rise in T can come from hcG, but looking at your BW it is painfully aware that this is not the case. It looks to me like it is a simple matter of you not having enough T running threw your blood.
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    SHBG 11 (8-46) (low)

    Goal
    freeT~250
    Required
    TotalT~750
    to get there one need external 200mg/mL
    DepoT=100mg/week (slightly less)

    that is 0.5cc/week=50units on insuline syringe
    People with low SHBG are specially sensitive to blood T level fluctuations,
    use E2D, every two days schedule for both
    T&hcg
    use 250iu hcg each shot
    use 50/7*2=14 units of testosterone

    use this needle for subQ injections around navel:

    http://hocks.com/Merchant2/merchant....Category_Code=
    BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $25.95

    or this

    http://hocks.com/Merchant2/merchant....Category_Code=
    Easy Touch U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16 inch Short Needle 100/Box Sale Price: $13.99

    After 2-3 months recheck you blood test, adjust T shots accordingly with a goal of
    FreeT~250 reading chart post #41

    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007
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    Thanks, JanSz--allow me to respond, if I might & fill in some blanks


    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    In my view you did the only valid test, you have used hcg.
    Theoretically, had you had Clomid working for you all it would mean that you would have now script for HCG.

    Your testis when stimulated by hcg do not produce any more Testosterone.

    Ok, but WHY?? Could they have they failed as well? How can this AND low FSH/LH happen? Am I am totally screwed?

    (Personally, if you want to go thru next agony, go and test how transdermals work or not work, for you).

    Tried this several months ago. Androgel once and twice daily only raised T 100 points to 300 total-the same as the clomid test.

    With my past history, I would go straight for Depo-T shots plus HCG for the cosmetic part.

    [B]You are likely right. Let's see what Dr. S says/B]

    Your DHT looks low.

    Yup. Could be my 8-9 yr ago 1 month use of propecia

    Your E2 test looks low and unfamiliar.

    It's the same one Quest has done for awhile
    -----------------------------------------------
    T4 free 1.1 (.8-1.8)
    T3 free 297 (230-420)

    When are you going to start Armour.

    Once I get the OK from Dr S.
    ------------------------------------------------
    Lots of supplements, fish oils and what not for your low cholesterol.

    I take fish oil now. Holding off on much more till I get the OK

    I am sure prescription compounded pregnenolone cream would help you.
    100mg/1gram, use 1gram/day
    blood test, increase dose if not high enough
    Sounds right yet again. Gotta see what Dr S says first as I am loathe to do much w/o his advance OK or input. As always, Jan, you're insight and comments are dead on and much appreciated. Thanks. I am just trying to make sense of this and have yet to do so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    SHBG 11 (8-46) (low)

    Goal
    freeT~250
    Required
    TotalT~750
    to get there one need external 200mg/mL
    DepoT=100mg/week (slightly less)

    that is 0.5cc/week=50units on insuline syringe
    People with low SHBG are specially sensitive to blood T level fluctuations,
    use E2D, every two days schedule for both
    T&hcg
    use 250iu hcg each shot
    use 50/7*2=14 units of testosterone

    use this needle for subQ injections around navel:

    http://hocks.com/Merchant2/merchant....Category_Code=
    BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $25.95

    or this

    http://hocks.com/Merchant2/merchant....Category_Code=
    Easy Touch U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16 inch Short Needle 100/Box Sale Price: $13.99

    After 2-3 months recheck you blood test, adjust T shots accordingly with a goal of
    FreeT~250 reading chart post #41

    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007
    JansZ,

    I wrote about this in another post but I believe it applies here as well.

    "Let us not forget that SHBG itself is often VERY difficult to measure correctly, even with quest's standards.

    The most accurate way to measure bio indentical hormones, the gold standard, is urines. Urines, if I remember correctly, do not measure SHBG. There is much invalidity in bloods, even by Quest standards. I think that Urines may very well be the gold standard in hormone measurement.

    It is these reasons in itself why we must not use SHBG as a marker on how to treat a HRT program and adjust dosages. Get Bioavailable T and E in line and let things like SHBG fall where it may.

    Besides, how do we treat SHBG with consistency? There is really little to do to raise/lower it. Chrysin cream has shown a little promise in lowering it, yet it is inconsistent."
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    "Yup. Could be my 8-9 yr ago 1 month use of propecia"

    I highly, highly doubt that a one month run of propecia could have led to low DHT.

    It is more likely that your overall lack of androgenic hormones that convert to DHT are to blame.
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    "Tried this several months ago. Androgel once and twice daily only raised T 100 points to 300 total-the same as the clomid test"

    How much androgel were you on.

    Were you using hcG as well?

    It is lack of hcG, not enough androgel and not sticking with program long enough is why program did not work.
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    Thanks, Plymouth. Allow me to fill in some blanks and pose some questions.


    My comments are in bold

    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Anyman - Classic case of how "More" is not "Better".

    Dr John believes, and given his caseload of patients to back himself upon, I agree, that " I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients"

    I agree. But, this is what Dr. S started me on. I hesitate to cut back or change his routine w/o checking w/ him first. Seems like a good idea, though since I wonder if the hcg is the cause of my recent depressive episodes and more constant melancholy

    That is 500Iu per week. You are taking three times that dose. It is apparent that taking more hcG to make up for a lack of T will not work.

    Yup. The question is WHY doesn't it work? My testes are normal sized and I fathered 2 kids. Huh??

    Your baseline T production is just not up to par and exogenous T must be administered.

    Sure looks that way. Not Androgel, though. That did nothing for me several months ago. Now that I think of it, could my one month on Androgel have shut down my testes?

    I don't thin it is an issue of hcG conversion to estrogen. hcG in itself does not aromatize into estrogen. it is a rise in T that aromitzes into E, and that rise in T can come from hcG, but looking at your BW it is painfully aware that this is not the case. It looks to me like it is a simple matter of you not having enough T running threw your blood.

    Agree. I need T. But, why didn't the hcg work? Arrghhh! I'm about ready to scream in frustration. Certainly explains why I've felt no better. Hell, I'll bet the hcg actually worsened things, which my more recent crappy moods and depression would explain.

    Thanks again. Please keep the comments and insights coming. Trying to make sense of this. Not yet there.....

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    "I agree. But, this is what Dr. S started me on. I hesitate to cut back or change his routine w/o checking w/ him first. Seems like a good idea, though since I wonder if the hcg is the cause of my recent depressive episodes and more constant melancholy"

    Do not blame hcG. It is lack of T running threw your veins that is causing you problems.

    "Yup. The question is WHY doesn't it work? My testes are normal sized and I fathered 2 kids. Huh??"

    Again, lack of T. All the hcG in the world is not going to fix this

    "Sure looks that way. Not Androgel, though. That did nothing for me several months ago. Now that I think of it, could my one month on Androgel have shut down my testes"

    Again, androgel program did not work for reasons I noted in above post.

    "Agree. I need T. But, why didn't the hcg work? Arrghhh! I'm about ready to scream in frustration. Certainly explains why I've felt no better. Hell, I'll bet the hcg actually worsened things, which my more recent crappy moods and depression would explain"

    Think of you being a car with no transmission or engine. hcG is your brand new trans, and T is the engine. Yet your engine is still broke. You are blaming the mechanic who gave you a brand new trans for your car not running, not realizing your car still has no engine.
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    Thanks- allow me to fill in a few more blanks, so to speak.


    As before, my additions are in BOLD

    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    "Tried this several months ago. Androgel once and twice daily only raised T 100 points to 300 total-the same as the clomid test"

    How much androgel were you on.

    Tried 3 weeks each of 1x/day and 2x/day. The urologist then wanted me to either join a clinical test for stronger Androgel or a clinical test for every 10 week T-undecanoate. It wasn't long thereafter before I found Dr. S as I lost faith in local Drs who only wanted test subjects

    Were you using hcG as well?

    No. None of the local Drs even remotely heard of it.

    It is lack of hcG, not enough androgel and not sticking with program long enough is why program did not work.

    I do not follow. Are you saying I should have used hcg AND Androgel? Perhaps Dr. S will suggest this. Damn- I wish I could make sense of all this and start to feel like a normal man again. Maybe someday..... Just gotta hang in there.
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    "Tried 3 weeks each of 1x/day and 2x/day. The urologist then wanted me to either join a clinical test for stronger Androgel or a clinical test for every 10 week T-undecanoate. It wasn't long thereafter before I found Dr. S as I lost faith in local Drs who only wanted test subjects"

    But how much were you on? What was the amount in grams?

    "I do not follow. Are you saying I should have used hcg AND Androgel? Perhaps Dr. S will suggest this. Damn- I wish I could make sense of all this and start to feel like a normal man again. Maybe someday..... Just gotta hang in there. "

    Yes, you need hcG in addition to the androgel. Testosterone is testosterone, be it from a gel or a shot. Men are using hcG with shots, and it is no different than needing hcG with gels.

    Again, I need to know how much androgel you were using. It is very likely you werent getting much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    JansZ,

    I wrote about this in another post but I believe it applies here as well.

    "Let us not forget that SHBG itself is often VERY difficult to measure correctly, even with quest's standards.

    The most accurate way to measure bio indentical hormones, the gold standard, is urines. Urines, if I remember correctly, do not measure SHBG. There is much invalidity in bloods, even by Quest standards. I think that Urines may very well be the gold standard in hormone measurement.

    It is these reasons in itself why we must not use SHBG as a marker on how to treat a HRT program and adjust dosages. Get Bioavailable T and E in line and let things like SHBG fall where it may.

    Besides, how do we treat SHBG with consistency? There is really little to do to raise/lower it. Chrysin cream has shown a little promise in lowering it, yet it is inconsistent."
    Sorry, I have to differ.

    I am not getting into theory, I am all about practice.

    If I bought you line of thinking,
    it would paralyze all my actions,
    cannot do that, sorry.

    If I come across something that works better,
    I will be first to jump ship
    and
    abandon my current ways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Sorry, I have to differ.

    I am not getting into theory, I am all about practice.

    If I bought you line of thinking,
    it would paralyze all my actions,
    cannot do that, sorry.

    If I come across something that works better,
    I will be first to jump ship
    and
    abandon my current ways.


    Its all good discussion, and I love the input and agreements/disagreements we have.

    I base my opinions on what I have read and researched.

    Dr John, as well as others, has noted repeatedly that SHBG in itself is an inaccurate assay.

    Given that, I do not believe it is proper to base an HRT program on an invalid assay.

    I am quickly becomming a believer in Urines as a gold standard in hormone testing, even more superior than quest. The ability it has as a marker for all day hormone evaluation is a superior achievement that bloods cannot match.

    Urines do not measure SHBG, so that is out the window. This does not matter, because SHBG is possibly an invalid assay in itself anyways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anyman View Post
    since I wonder if the hcg is the cause of my recent depressive episodes and more constant melancholy
    Prolonged period of low testosterone did that to me.
    It took about a year on higher T levels to get rid of it.

    If you have any influence on your doctor get on:
    testosterone
    hcg
    progesterone
    Armour


    there is nothing to stop him to give you proper ranges of
    FreeT
    progesterone
    freeT3
    FreeT4

    you may even get additionally some Tcream on your balls to increase DHT to proper level.


    tell him that you be willing to go for his experimentation latter on, after you catch a breader.

    Testosterone level any fertility............
    we are still searching to figure out how the stuff actually works.

    Post all your medicines and supplements.
    You need something to get cholesterols higher.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post


    Its all good discussion, and I love the input and agreements/disagreements we have.

    I base my opinions on what I have read and researched.

    Dr John, as well as others, has noted repeatedly that SHBG in itself is an inaccurate assay.

    Given that, I do not believe it is proper to base an HRT program on an invalid assay.

    I am quickly becomming a believer in Urines as a gold standard in hormone testing, even more superior than quest. The ability it has as a marker for all day hormone evaluation is a superior achievement that bloods cannot match.

    Urines do not measure SHBG, so that is out the window. This does not matter, because SHBG is possibly an invalid assay in itself anyways.
    Post you complete, actionable, "manual" on succesful TRT,
    200 words or less.

    I am not researcher.
    I do not have all day, and girls a waiting for my **** to do its work.
    Need shortcuts that work.
    ---------------------------
    We have a guys here waiting for close to a year, no results, it is getting old quickly.
    Being depressed is not much fun,
    specially if 75% solution is at hand.
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    It is his low DHT levels, along with what I believe is a superior form of HRT therapy, why I believe he should start his HRT program with a transdermal

    Dr John - " have patients who love testosterone gel because it successfully treated their ED (the expected outcome because of dramatically increased DHT production)"
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Post you complete, actionable, "manual" on succesful TRT,
    200 words or less.
    Out of respect for people with actual medical degrees, I cannot even post such a thing and try and pass it off as gospel. However, given my huge ego for my own growing knowledge for this field, I am quickly putting together what I believe is best. And the more I have learned, especially as of late, is that Dr Johns protocol is dead on.

    I still am having some difficulty though wrapping my mind around his once per week inject rule. Maybe I will change my mind when I learn more. Maybe not.

    All I can do is share what I have learned.
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    Didn't know there was more than one kind of Androgel, but here we go:


    OK, here we go. Took some digging.

    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    "Tried 3 weeks each of 1x/day and 2x/day. The urologist then wanted me to either join a clinical test for stronger Androgel or a clinical test for every 10 week T-undecanoate. It wasn't long thereafter before I found Dr. S as I lost faith in local Drs who only wanted test subjects"

    But how much were you on? What was the amount in grams?

    5 gram packets, tried once and twice daily

    "I do not follow. Are you saying I should have used hcg AND Androgel? Perhaps Dr. S will suggest this. Damn- I wish I could make sense of all this and start to feel like a normal man again. Maybe someday..... Just gotta hang in there. "

    Yes, you need hcG in addition to the androgel. Testosterone is testosterone, be it from a gel or a shot. Men are using hcG with shots, and it is no different than needing hcG with gels.

    Still curious and puzzled--what didn't the hcg do anything? Shouldn't it have raised it at least a little bit??

    Again, I need to know how much androgel you were using. It is very likely you werent getting much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I am not researcher.
    I do not have all day, and girls a waiting for my **** to do its work.
    Need shortcuts that work.
    ---------------------------
    We have a guys here waiting for close to a year, no results, it is getting old quickly.
    Being depressed is not much fun,
    specially if 75% solution is at hand.
    Remember,
    alot of these guys are being treated by unknowledgable Dr's.

    Most Dr's are good people who want to help others, we cannot fault them for their lack of knowledge in cutting edge areas. Most are simply too bogged down by their daily case loads to continuely strive upward. I have a close relative who is an M.D. to base my observations on so this is one area I am knowledgable.

    JansZ, remember short cuts in a forest will only get you lost in the long run.

    I am curious to know how dostinex will work for you, as well as your experiements in E3D SQ injects and other protocols. Keep me/all of us updated on your continuing quest in various areas, it is for much benefit.
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    "Still curious and puzzled--what didn't the hcg do anything? Shouldn't it have raised it at least a little bit??"

    All hcG can do is restore baseline functioning to what you previously had before hcg was administered. It is not a form of HRT therapy. If your previous baseline T production is crap, hcG simply cannot restore you to healthy male 18 - 25 year old production. That simply isn't what it is designed for or capable of doing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Remember,
    alot of these guys are being treated by unknowledgable Dr's.

    Most Dr's are good people who want to help others, we cannot fault them for their lack of knowledge in cutting edge areas. Most are simply too bogged down by their daily case loads to continuely strive upward. I have a close relative who is an M.D. to base my observations on so this is one area I am knowledgable.

    JansZ, remember short cuts in a forest will only get you lost in the long run.

    I am curious to know how dostinex will work for you, as well as your experiements in E3D SQ injects and other protocols. Keep me/all of us updated on your continuing quest in various areas, it is for much benefit.
    In the mean time Anyman went thru
    Androgel
    Clomid
    hcg

    and I see pattern here,

    on end of that pattern guys are getting their injections, 6 months latter depression goes away and they are free to ***** about other inperfections.
    -----------------------------------------------------------

    My subq (T+hcg) injections are the best bet I tried in long time. I started June 19/07, hopefully if that was temporary rush ir would have been worn out by now. But it is still working, I keep my fingers crossed.

    when I have spare $199 I will try Dostinex,
    however my situation with Prolactin is not as bad as some of other guys. My
    Prolactin=5.5

    I would think that somebody with Prolactin>10 should not discuss much the ins and outs of bad accuracy of Prolactin testing. It is much quicker to cough up the $199 and see if that makes any difference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post

    My subq (T+hcg) injections are the best bet I tried in long time. I started June 19/07, hopefully if that was temporary rush ir would have been worn out by now. But it is still working, I keep my fingers crossed.
    Let us not forget though JansZ,
    When you were on Androgel you were NOT on
    hcG
    Pregnenolone

    hcG and pregnenolone are two BIG pieces of the puzzle.

    I hope others leanr from these types of situiations that anyman is going threw and understand that before we jump into HRT

    1. We REALLY need to do our homework and educate ourselves

    2. Choosing the right cutting edge Dr makes all the difference in the world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Out of respect for people with actual medical degrees, I cannot even post such a thing and try and pass it off as gospel. However, given my huge ego for my own growing knowledge for this field, I am quickly putting together what I believe is best. And the more I have learned, especially as of late, is that Dr Johns protocol is dead on.

    I still am having some difficulty though wrapping my mind around his once per week inject rule. Maybe I will change my mind when I learn more. Maybe not.

    All I can do is share what I have learned.
    Respect for doctors is good thing.
    I vote for that early and often.

    When in your search you come up with with something that is worth recomending, you amy want to put together something concise that latter you can refer to, when helping others.

    Following dr John's receipe for success (but even shorter if possible).
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    anyman: Your balls are not making Testosterone. You've done 2 tests that confirm this:

    1. Clomid stimulation test: This works by raising LH. When LH rises, your balls make Testosterone as a response to it.

    2. HCG: HCG is an LH-analog. It looks like LH to your body and should exhibit the same response of elevated LH.

    It looks to me like Dr Shippen tried 2 ways to make your body help itself before resorting to bring Testosterone in externally. He is known for this approach vs going straight to using Testosterone.

    If you're not making Testosterone and you need it, you have to get it into your body externally. For you to raise it, you will need to be on a gel, cream, or injectible. Your lab results don't mean that you can't raise your T. They simply mean that your body will not do it for you when asked to do so.

    Given how you've been feeling and this news in general, I can see why this is upsetting, but don't stress too much. Most guys on TRT are getting Test externally anyway. The option you have left (external Testosterone) is the one that most guys use.

    Sonny
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    I'd still like to know why my testes aren't making T (more)


    Where I remain stuck is how I could be classified as "secondary", i.e. low FSH/LH/T and then, when LH is added, see pretty much nothing. Does this mean I and guys like me may also be acquired primary as well? What puzzles me even more is how clomid resulted in some improvement (200 to 319 or so), while hcg did almost nothing. Still pondering this one.

    You're likely right. Looks like external T is the only way to go. Damn......

    As always, I appreciate the input and will keep all posted as things change.

    Quote Originally Posted by T800 View Post
    anyman: Your balls are not making Testosterone. You've done 2 tests that confirm this:

    1. Clomid stimulation test: This works by raising LH. When LH rises, your balls make Testosterone as a response to it.

    2. HCG: HCG is an LH-analog. It looks like LH to your body and should exhibit the same response of elevated LH.

    It looks to me like Dr Shippen tried 2 ways to make your body help itself before resorting to bring Testosterone in externally. He is known for this approach vs going straight to using Testosterone.

    If you're not making Testosterone and you need it, you have to get it into your body externally. For you to raise it, you will need to be on a gel, cream, or injectible. Your lab results don't mean that you can't raise your T. They simply mean that your body will not do it for you when asked to do so.

    Given how you've been feeling and this news in general, I can see why this is upsetting, but don't stress too much. Most guys on TRT are getting Test externally anyway. The option you have left (external Testosterone) is the one that most guys use.

    Sonny
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    Quote Originally Posted by anyman View Post
    Where I remain stuck is how I could be classified as "secondary", i.e. low FSH/LH/T and then, when LH is added, see pretty much nothing. Does this mean I and guys like me may also be acquired primary as well? What puzzles me even more is how clomid resulted in some improvement (200 to 319 or so), while hcg did almost nothing. Still pondering this one.

    You're likely right. Looks like external T is the only way to go. Damn......

    As always, I appreciate the input and will keep all posted as things change.
    If your balls mesage is being sent out and your balls are not responding then I say its you nuts are the problem or something is blocking the message. Possuible fuked e metabolism could be the culprit due to all the hidden estrogens in our environmnet these days..And understand these just did not come up with in the last few months but rather have been accumulating for long time but now are just are bodys are saturatesd with it that we are starting to feel the effects NOW !!
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Respect for doctors is good thing.
    I vote for that early and often.

    When in your search you come up with with something that is worth recomending, you amy want to put together something concise that latter you can refer to, when helping others.

    Following dr John's receipe for success (but even shorter if possible).
    Absolutely. Agree here.

    Putting together a protocol would be fun.

    However so much of my work would be plagarizing Dr Johns work so it would be pointless
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    Quote Originally Posted by anyman View Post
    Where I remain stuck is how I could be classified as "secondary", i.e. low FSH/LH/T and then, when LH is added, see pretty much nothing. Does this mean I and guys like me may also be acquired primary as well? What puzzles me even more is how clomid resulted in some improvement (200 to 319 or so), while hcg did almost nothing. Still pondering this one.

    You're likely right. Looks like external T is the only way to go. Damn......

    As always, I appreciate the input and will keep all posted as things change.
    Anyman,

    I've spoken on this before. To many people put to much stock in this "primary" "secondary" yada yada yada stuff.

    Some are estrogen dominant, some are cortisol dominant. There is so much going on it is hard to pinpoint anything.

    To be honest, its cool Dr Shippen tried to get you restarted, but, for the most part, most of the people I have seen that rebooted their HTPA axis were younger guys who weren't all that badd off in the first place.

    I haven't heard from anyone yet that had a T level in the low 200's being fixed. Never.
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    You are likely right. I am, however, going to address adrenal/neuro issues as well.


    Can't disagree with what you say. I never thought early 40s was "old", but apparently I was wrong there as well. Seems that we are, much to my constant amazement and discomfort, a rather fragile and lame species. Intellectually, I understand how TRT can be good, but emotionally I'd like my body to at least shoulder some of the load!

    Dr S had me do a "Neurotransmitter" test which I posted in another thread. The company, Neuro Science, conveniently sells supplements designed to address the issues raised, including basement levels of serotonin and suspected adrenal issues as well. The supplemements aren't cheap, but can be gotten on reputable mail order places for less money. The Dr. who Shippen works with also sells them, but at not so great prices. I'm sure there are cheaper alternatives, but for now I'll stick with the receommended course of action.

    I broke down and spent the $142 for Adrecor, Serene Plus and Kavinace. Adrecor is for adrenal issues, while the others are for serotonin, etc. Should last for 1-2 months. Figure it likely won't hurt, especially given Dr S' endorsement. Would not even consider this but for him.

    Now I am wondering if addressing the possible adrenal & serotonin issues might affect T as well. Maybe there will be an upside to all this. I welcome comments, etc and this.

    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Anyman,

    I've spoken on this before. To many people put to much stock in this "primary" "secondary" yada yada yada stuff.

    Some are estrogen dominant, some are cortisol dominant. There is so much going on it is hard to pinpoint anything.

    To be honest, its cool Dr Shippen tried to get you restarted, but, for the most part, most of the people I have seen that rebooted their HTPA axis were younger guys who weren't all that badd off in the first place.

    I haven't heard from anyone yet that had a T level in the low 200's being fixed. Never.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anyman View Post
    Can't disagree with what you say. I never thought early 40s was "old", but apparently I was wrong there as well. Seems that we are, much to my constant amazement and discomfort, a rather fragile and lame species. Intellectually, I understand how TRT can be good, but emotionally I'd like my body to at least shoulder some of the load!

    .
    Anyman,
    Considering that human beings have been around, in one form or another, for tens of thousands of years, and, only recently, in the last thousand, have we lived into our 30's and 40's, it is understandable. Hypogonadism is directly a part of the aging process.

    We are all fighting and chasing time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Anyman,
    Considering that human beings have been around, in one form or another, for tens of thousands of years, and, only recently, in the last thousand, have we lived into our 30's and 40's, it is understandable. Hypogonadism is directly a part of the aging process.

    We are all fighting and chasing time.
    or working to manipulate mother nature LOL
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    Right now I am currently working with my dr to come up with some kind of protcol that will help narrow down specific areas of mens hormonal issues interlinked with other systems of the body to rule out any other variables that may be over looked.
    from him and i working together on my case that contains such diversity and interactions from other systems he is learning more and more information that will put him up there with likes of DR J and Shippen and other pioneers in the very near future. And from being on here I can only thank all of you for contribution to the most satifying life changing board I have been part of and hopefully dr john will come back and grace us with his presence once again and Dr Delagado has also brought incredible information that will also give open minded dr's a new over looked approach to a simple solution that has been all along. As I stated 3 years ago in my threads at other boards. "mark my words estrogens are over looked now but will be a huge factor in the future" People laughed at me and now whos are not laughing..
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    Quote Originally Posted by anyman View Post
    Can't disagree with what you say. I never thought early 40s was "old", but apparently I was wrong there as well. Seems that we are, much to my constant amazement and discomfort, a rather fragile and lame species. Intellectually, I understand how TRT can be good, but emotionally I'd like my body to at least shoulder some of the load!
    You are 40yo.
    In the last at least 80 years or so, infant mortality has been tremendously reduced.
    Natural selection is not acceptable, every baby, every body is being helped by ever progressing medicine.
    Then these people procreate.
    By now there is already third or secong generation of people that are alive against many odds.

    Do you see where I am going?

    Is any of these aplicable to you?
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    I understand all too well. And fully agree, even though such is not very "PC"


    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    You are 40yo.
    In the last at least 80 years or so, infant mortality has been tremendously reduced.
    Natural selection is not acceptable, every baby, every body is being helped by ever progressing medicine.
    Then these people procreate.
    By now there is already third or secong generation of people that are alive against many odds.

    Do you see where I am going?

    Is any of these aplicable to you?
    I was always concerned that medicine, while well intentioned, may be indirectly weakening our species. We've gone from a system that encourages strengthening of future gene pools to pretty much the exact opposite. I worry that future generations may be so weak they can't even breed without artificial assistance.

    Tough issue. Very easy to be labeled in a negative way or seen as in favor of resurrecting the eugenics movement. However, as you point out, the facts don't lie. They just "are". The essential issue becomes how to balance our humanity and compassion with the long term good of the species? I'm still working on this one.
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