[hardasnails1973]

Originally Posted by anyman

After 3 weeks of 1x/week .6mL of 100mg Depo- T brand Tcyp and 300 iu of hcg 2x/week I got blood results that STILL puzzle me.

Get this- I went DOWN. Saw T of 133, although E dropped to under 32. Never had T that low, even before I started TRT. The lowest I ever saw was around 200.

Even Dr S was puzzled at this one. We speculated that the vial may be bad. Seems odd as I keep it @ room temp and in a cabinet. The extra low T certainly explains my diminished attitude, energy and increased feelings of being "down".

In any event, he now has me on a weekly shot of .5mL of 200mg depo-T (up from 100mg). HCG remains at 300iu 2x/week. Just took the shot yesterday, so it's too early to notice anything.

Any thoughts or ideas here? I admit to being stumped....

Bad batch or the thyroid spike the hell out of cortisol, Dr S never checks dhea and seems rarely concerned with it. My freinds DHEA was in the toilet but he focus on the testosterone instead, That one i never figured out.

[T800]

It's just a guess, but I think if that you take too little T, you end up suppressing hormone production without providing adequate replacement.

Sonny

[hardasnails1973]

Originally Posted by T800

It's just a guess, but I think if that you take too little T, you end up suppressing hormone production without providing adequate replacement.

Sonny

Similar to testosterone cream, You give your body just enough to tease it and to shut off your own..

[anyman]

As some may recall. I started 5mL of 100mg/mL per week of Tcyp and after actually seeing my T DROP to 120ish from 200 was told to go to 5mL of 200mg/mL Tcyp. This is in addition to 300iu of hcg 2x/week. The drop is all the more puzzling since I was using hcg all along. Weird.......

In any event, I still didn't feel all the better and was just told to do .4mL of 200mg Tcyp twice per week in addition to the hcg. Just started this the other day.

Rather oddly, I don't notice much if any difference. Still more often than not tired and mentally depressed/down for now apparent reason. No change in nocturnal erections, although I can function to a fair degree on occasion. Since the rest of my life is, knock on wood, going well enough I can only conclude that a continuing hormone/neurotransmitter issue is to blame. Still present is the odd tendency for my mood to improve noticeably as the evening progresses. By 10pm I can often feel pretty good, while at 10AM I can be quite down. My cortisol has been continuously high, which Dr S ascribes to low T. He believes that my Cortisol and so-so thyroid levels will improve when T comes up. Says it's a vicious cycle that needs to be broken. I personally wouldn't mind investigating this a bit more, but will not go against his directions.

Just had blood drawn the other day and will get the results hopefully on Monday. Maybe E is too high. That would explain much.

There is one thing that does help is Ritalin. Yes, Ritalin. The same thing that was given to kids and which apparently helps adults in far different ways.

As I understand it, Ritalin helps dopamine, which I belive to be low based in prior neurotransmitter tests. I've been taking 5htp and l-theanine supplements for the last 3 months. If there are changes, I don't see them, at least not yet. If anyone can explain why and how Ritalin works while other things have not I am all ears. I'm at the point where I care less and less about the sexual aspects of this and merely want to get ird of the damned "blues" and fatigue. Damned annoying and gets in the way of life!

[anyman]

Since this is a totally seperate issue, I thought a seperate post was a good idea.

As some may recall, Dr S tried to jump start my testes by gradually going up to 1500iu 3x/week of hcg for a short time. That got my T all the way up to around 523-but with E of about 75 (!). And, I was only 43 at the time.

The logical conclusion was that my testes weren't working all that well in addition to being secondary as my very low FSH & LH readings would indicate. Could be both primary AND secondary?

"WHY??" came to mind. I have no history of drug/steriod use, no injuries and nothing else remarkable except a month's use of propecia about 8-9 years ago. I took paxil and wellbutrin a few years ago (both SSRIs) for what I now believe was the start of low T.

One theory is that the propecia and/or SSRIs made me secondary or otherwise helped it along. In the process, my testes didn't get enouogh FSH/LH and atropied to an extent.

A second theory is that I started to become primary for unknown reasons causing my brain to churn out more and more FSH/LH in an attempt to helo until it too burned out.

I have no idea if either of these theories makes any sense, but welcome people's thoughts and comments.

[hardasnails1973]

Originally Posted by anyman

Since this is a totally seperate issue, I thought a seperate post was a good idea.

As some may recall, Dr S tried to jump start my testes by gradually going up to 1500iu 3x/week of hcg for a short time. That got my T all the way up to around 523-but with E of about 75 (!). And, I was only 43 at the time.

The logical conclusion was that my testes weren't working all that well in addition to being secondary as my very low FSH & LH readings would indicate. Could be both primary AND secondary?

"WHY??" came to mind. I have no history of drug/steriod use, no injuries and nothing else remarkable except a month's use of propecia about 8-9 years ago. I took paxil and wellbutrin a few years ago (both SSRIs) for what I now believe was the start of low T.

One theory is that the propecia and/or SSRIs made me secondary or otherwise helped it along. In the process, my testes didn't get enouogh FSH/LH and atropied to an extent.

A second theory is that I started to become primary for unknown reasons causing my brain to churn out more and more FSH/LH in an attempt to helo until it too burned out.

I have no idea if either of these theories makes any sense, but welcome people's thoughts and comments.

You want a simple explaination
PAxil and wellbutrin screw up your body's own balance mainly in the liver AKA methyation pathways are altered. Paxil can actually cause cancer because the way it alters the body methyation pathways. And when this pathway is alteref your cellular receptors are also changed and the lock and keys do notwork properly at the hormone receptor sites and then the cell basically cell destruct which is known as apotsis. When this happens arachodndonic acid is released from the cell membran causes huge silent cellular inflammation leading into the begining stages of pre cancer

[Diancecht]

Originally Posted by anyman

As some may recall. I started 5mL of 100mg/mL per week of Tcyp and after actually seeing my T DROP to 120ish from 200 was told to go to 5mL of 200mg/mL Tcyp. This is in addition to 300iu of hcg 2x/week. The drop is all the more puzzling since I was using hcg all along. Weird.......

In any event, I still didn't feel all the better and was just told to do .4mL of 200mg Tcyp twice per week in addition to the hcg. Just started this the other day.

Rather oddly, I don't notice much if any difference. Still more often than not tired and mentally depressed/down for now apparent reason. No change in nocturnal erections, although I can function to a fair degree on occasion. Since the rest of my life is, knock on wood, going well enough I can only conclude that a continuing hormone/neurotransmitter issue is to blame. Still present is the odd tendency for my mood to improve noticeably as the evening progresses. By 10pm I can often feel pretty good, while at 10AM I can be quite down. My cortisol has been continuously high, which Dr S ascribes to low T. He believes that my Cortisol and so-so thyroid levels will improve when T comes up. Says it's a vicious cycle that needs to be broken. I personally wouldn't mind investigating this a bit more, but will not go against his directions.

Just had blood drawn the other day and will get the results hopefully on Monday. Maybe E is too high. That would explain much.

There is one thing that does help is Ritalin. Yes, Ritalin. The same thing that was given to kids and which apparently helps adults in far different ways.

As I understand it, Ritalin helps dopamine, which I belive to be low based in prior neurotransmitter tests. I've been taking 5htp and l-theanine supplements for the last 3 months. If there are changes, I don't see them, at least not yet. If anyone can explain why and how Ritalin works while other things have not I am all ears. I'm at the point where I care less and less about the sexual aspects of this and merely want to get ird of the damned "blues" and fatigue. Damned annoying and gets in the way of life!

Am I reading this right? If you were taking 5ml of 200 test/cyp that would be 1000 mg per week. I am 240 lb and 180 mg per week puts me slightly over top of range. Did perhaps you mean .5 m. which then would be 100 mg per week which would make more sense.

If not then it is a head scratcher.

So several ideas which may or may not be applicable

Tests are not foolproof, in fact there is lots of extrinisc and intrinsic variables which will affect lab results. In other words if the tests dont fit the clinical picture consider repeating the test. Dont get caught in the classic chase the lab numbers!

As mentioned above earlier was the batch of test bad. Not common but anything can happen. Another vial from a seperate batch should clear that up.

Injection issues. Is the a problem with method or injection area that might be compromising the meds. Getting weekly shots from the doc for a month and then restesting might help sort that out.

Anyway just some random ideas you may or may not want to consider and discuss with your health care provider.

[anyman]

Allow me to clarify:

Originally Posted by Diancecht

Am I reading this right? If you were taking 5ml of 200 test/cyp that would be 1000 mg per week. I am 240 lb and 180 mg per week puts me slightly over top of range. Did perhaps you mean .5 m. which then would be 100 mg per week which would make more sense.

Yes, I meant to type .5mL!

Tests are not foolproof, in fact there is lots of extrinisc and intrinsic variables which will affect lab results. In other words if the tests dont fit the clinical picture consider repeating the test. Dont get caught in the classic chase the lab numbers!

Agree. Dr Shippen has had me re-test, although my subjective feelings certainly supported the readings.

Injection issues. Is the a problem with method or injection area that might be compromising the meds. Getting weekly shots from the doc for a month and then restesting might help sort that out.

Dr S has his patients start with sub-q in the stomach. No issues there that I am aware of, at least not yet. There have been many debates here on the merits of sub-q vs. IM. I trust Dr. S and will stick with (pun intended) sub-q until he suggests otherwise

Anyway just some random ideas you may or may not want to consider and discuss with your health care provider.

Thanks. Much appreciated. I am increasingly convinced that I suffer from low Dopamine, as mild doses of Ritalin can help me quite a bit. Yields a "chicken and egg" question: What came first, low T or low Dopamine? Either way, I'd like to find a way to boost it on a more natural basis. I wonder about this stuff from Neuroscience: https://www.neurorelief.com/index.ph...d=97&Itemid=47

Any thoughts/ideas/suggestions??

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by anyman

Allow me to clarify:

Thanks. Much appreciated. I am increasingly convinced that I suffer from low Dopamine, as mild doses of Ritalin can help me quite a bit. Yields a "chicken and egg" question: What came first, low T or low Dopamine? Either way, I'd like to find a way to boost it on a more natural basis. I wonder about this stuff from Neuroscience: https://www.neurorelief.com/index.ph...d=97&Itemid=47

Any thoughts/ideas/suggestions??

Check attachment #6 on my post #1 here:

JanSz-Metabolic Analysis and Cellular Energy

Similar test that you are talking about.
Instead of just Dopamine they worry about a bunch of neurotransmitters and their metabolites.
My test cost about $275, still waiting how much insurance will pick up.

They not only found problem, they also advice on solution.

But they do not sell the stuff like Neuroscience does, you may get it on your own, plus no extra charge for interpretation.
------------------------------------------------------------
So I am eating now suff such as below,
some of it comes with warning that if dose is not right it may cause or feed cancer.
I already have a sarcoma in my left thigh, lets hope Genova got it right.

L-phenylalanine 500-2000 mg/d
L-thyrosine 500-2000 mg/d
L-methionine 500-1000mg/d
Detoxification
Molybdenum 50-250 μg/d,
B2 5-50mg/d (riboflavin)
Vit B12 6-200 ug/d (0.5) ug=mcg=microgram
Folic Acid 400-2000 ug/d (0.7)
Lipoic Acid 25-200 mg/d (0.3)
Glutathione 250-1000 mg/d (0.9)

[anyman]

After reading a post from "Rugby Hooligan" that his shots kicked in, I began to wonder why mine havn't done a damned thing.

I started w/ .5m of 100mg T cyp a good 8 weeks ago and saw T actually DROP from a pre TRT level of 200 +/- to 129. WTF??!!?? Switched to .5ml of 200mg T cyp ad went all the way to 270 Woo-hoo!! (sarcasm intended...) I quite literally did better on Dr S's 25mg 7 day Clomid test. Went to 325 or so on that, which thus far is better than TRT.
Upped to .4mL 2x/week 2 weeks ago and still feel not much. Little morning wood, almost always fatigued and frequently mentally "down". Throughout this I do 300iu of hcg 2X/week.

What am I doing wrong? .4mL of 200mg Tcyp should be doing SOMETHING by now, shouldn't it?

Let me fill in the other supplements, etc to get a more complete picture:

Dr S added T3/4 thyroid support 2 weeks ago due to my consistently barely into the "normal range" results. I also take 5htp, l-theanine, ginsing and other vitamins, etc.

Estrogen is constantly under 32, so I cannot see that it may be an issue. It did go up to 75 when we tried 1500 units of hcg 3X/week for an attempted restart. Dropped back down thereafter. Cortisol is always high.

Any ideas?? What am I doing wrong? I would think that .4mL of 200mg T and hcg would have worked by now. Dr S thinks I may be a "fast metabolizer", hence the bump in dose and frequency. I admit to being increasingly frustrated and nervous over this whole thing.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by anyman

After reading a post from "Rugby Hooligan" that his shots kicked in, I began to wonder why mine havn't done a damned thing.

I started w/ .5m of 100mg T cyp a good 8 weeks ago and saw T actually DROP from a pre TRT level of 200 +/- to 129. WTF??!!?? Switched to .5ml of 200mg T cyp ad went all the way to 270 Woo-hoo!! (sarcasm intended...) I quite literally did better on Dr S's 25mg 7 day Clomid test. Went to 325 or so on that, which thus far is better than TRT.
Upped to .4mL 2x/week 2 weeks ago and still feel not much. Little morning wood, almost always fatigued and frequently mentally "down". Throughout this I do 300iu of hcg 2X/week.

What am I doing wrong? .4mL of 200mg Tcyp should be doing SOMETHING by now, shouldn't it?

Let me fill in the other supplements, etc to get a more complete picture:

Dr S added T3/4 thyroid support 2 weeks ago due to my consistently barely into the "normal range" results. I also take 5htp, l-theanine, ginsing and other vitamins, etc.

Estrogen is constantly under 32, so I cannot see that it may be an issue. It did go up to 75 when we tried 1500 units of hcg 3X/week for an attempted restart. Dropped back down thereafter. Cortisol is always high.

Any ideas?? What am I doing wrong? I would think that .4mL of 200mg T and hcg would have worked by now. Dr S thinks I may be a "fast metabolizer", hence the bump in dose and frequency. I admit to being increasingly frustrated and nervous over this whole thing.

Plenty of ideas. Problem is, you do not want to listen.

#1 you already know that your testosterone dose is way to low, not even close to the correct dose. Tell me your SHBG I will give you better approximate dose.
Do not argue, use E2D schedule, you may change it to less often schedule after you happy with everything else.
Drop it, and forget about Clomid.
Use T + Liquidex on Day #1
and
380iu HCG on day #2
================================================== ==
#2 Use Armour Thyroid only, get your freeT3 to the top range
================================================== ===
#3 do at least this three tests at Quest
FreeT3
Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)

FreeT3 to be on top
FreeE2 (0.45 - 0.6)
BAT~575
================================================== ===
#4 do not use
5htp, l-theanine, ginsing

you may actually need them but it is fat chance.
Do first tests that will tell you what supplements of this type you actually need.

NutriEval
EstroEssence
================================================== ==

[T800]

anyman: Just to clarify, 2x per week, you're using .4 mL of the 100mg/mL or the 200mg/mL preparation?

2x per week of 100mg/mL = 80mg/week (usually not enough for most men)
2x per week of 200mg/mL = 160mg/week (usually too much for most men)

What are you taking for your thyroid?

Sonny

[ItalStallion]

I am 27 years, working out regularly. Doing five and a half miles a day on the treadmill and slowly starting to lift weights. I had my testosterone tested recently, because I strongly believe that my diagnosis of depression and anxiety is cause by some underlying hormone problem. I don't fit the classical symptoms of hypogonadism to a t. I do have muscle aches, loss of upper body muscle mass, gynecomastia which doesn't resolve with weight loss, irritability, extremely low libido, and unrefreshing sleep, hair loss on the head(no visible signs of body hair loss). I might have missed a few.

My psych doc ordered a Total Testosterone test for me, which I took at about 8:30 AM. It returned levels of about 320 (don't remember the unit.) He says that we should not be concerned because this was in the low normal range. I think I should be concerned and further tests should be performed because I think those reference ranges cover men from 18 to like 60 and if my testosterone level are normal for a 58 year-old, then they are not really normal.
They maintain all my symptoms are just symptoms of depression and just want to keep throwing all the psych drugs at me. Most of which aggravate the symptoms I already have. I maintain that I don't feel well because of low T levels and this is causing me to have low energy and feel down.

Has anybody else experienced such a problem? And what did you do about it? Did you go to a urologist or endocrinologist for further testing? I appreciate all your info cause I feel bad and I am getting worse. I don't have the vitality that a 27 year old should have.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by ItalStallion

I am 27 years, working out regularly. Doing five and a half miles a day on the treadmill and slowly starting to lift weights. I had my testosterone tested recently, because I strongly believe that my diagnosis of depression and anxiety is cause by some underlying hormone problem. I don't fit the classical symptoms of hypogonadism to a t. I do have muscle aches, loss of upper body muscle mass, gynecomastia which doesn't resolve with weight loss, irritability, extremely low libido, and unrefreshing sleep, hair loss on the head(no visible signs of body hair loss). I might have missed a few.

My psych doc ordered a Total Testosterone test for me, which I took at about 8:30 AM. It returned levels of about 320 (don't remember the unit.) He says that we should not be concerned because this was in the low normal range. I think I should be concerned and further tests should be performed because I think those reference ranges cover men from 18 to like 60 and if my testosterone level are normal for a 58 year-old, then they are not really normal.
They maintain all my symptoms are just symptoms of depression and just want to keep throwing all the psych drugs at me. Most of which aggravate the symptoms I already have. I maintain that I don't feel well because of low T levels and this is causing me to have low energy and feel down.

Has anybody else experienced such a problem? And what did you do about it? Did you go to a urologist or endocrinologist for further testing? I appreciate all your info cause I feel bad and I am getting worse. I don't have the vitality that a 27 year old should have.

Do my blood list at Quest
also
NutriEval
and
Estroessence
at Genova Diagnostics.

More details at my post #40

Jan's BloodTest April13/2007
======================================

No guarantiies, but

The other options are real slow and provide very little information on how your body works where is defficient.

[Diancecht]