[anyman]

Originally Posted by TiredOldFart

I'm wondering if you would do okay with your current HCG dose and add arimidex to bring E2 back down. Perhaps the E2 is causing the melancholy you report. Going from 200 to 523 seems like a decent response. Does this response improve through time as leydig cells are stimulated?

The main reason he didn't keep me at 1500 is that it is too high a dose for long term use due to the risk of permanent testicular burnout. He is of the opinion that I just wasn't responding enough and realized that after 2 1/2 months of effort I'd need too much hcg and too much E control to keep levels high enough.

[anyman]

Here's an update for those who care, are interested or can offer suggestions.

After 2 1/2 months of hcg alone Dr S decided that T levels just weren't high enough (took 1500iu 3x/wk just to get to 523) and E jumped up to 75. Can't take that much hcg forever, nor can one have E levels that high, so the decision was made for me. We started .6ml of T cyp (100mg) 1x/week injected on a sub-q basis a little over a week ago. Just had the 2nd shot last night. I know some here advocate much more, but he likes to start slow and work up. I'll respect his instructions, since to do otherwise could jeopardize my standing as a patient.

OK, it may be a bit early to expect much, but here I am a day past the 2nd shot and I feel no different. Still tired, still crabby and all too often mentally "down". Not exactly what I was hoping for.

Anyone out there with similar experience? Any suggestions or comments?

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by anyman

Here's an update for those who care, are interested or can offer suggestions.

After 2 1/2 months of hcg alone Dr S decided that T levels just weren't high enough (took 1500iu 3x/wk just to get to 523) and E jumped up to 75. Can't take that much hcg forever, nor can one have E levels that high, so the decision was made for me. We started .6ml of T cyp (100mg) 1x/week injected on a sub-q basis a little over a week ago. Just had the 2nd shot last night. I know some here advocate much more, but he likes to start slow and work up. I'll respect his instructions, since to do otherwise could jeopardize my standing as a patient.

OK, it may be a bit early to expect much, but here I am a day past the 2nd shot and I feel no different. Still tired, still crabby and all too often mentally "down". Not exactly what I was hoping for.

Anyone out there with similar experience? Any suggestions or comments?

Right now you are just marking a time.

Make assesment when you reach:
FreeT~250 -300
FreeE2~0.45 (and host of other estrogens)
FreeT3 top of range
FreeT4 close to the top

And also there is about 75-100 of other (common) indicators that you may need to look into.

At least change to E3D schedule.

[dcguy4u]

Originally Posted by JanSz

Right now you are just marking a time.

You are a very wise man Jansz

[anyman]

Considering his reputation and more, I am not sure going against his advice is a good idea, at least at this early stage.

Originally Posted by JanSz

Right now you are just marking a time.

Make assesment when you reach:
FreeT~250 -300
FreeE2~0.45 (and host of other estrogens)
FreeT3 top of range
FreeT4 close to the top

And also there is about 75-100 of other (common) indicators that you may need to look into.

At least change to E3D schedule.

Considering his reputation and more, I am not sure going against his advice is a good idea, at least at this early stage. I have dealt with him enough to know that he expects his patients to at least try his plan for awhile and follow instructions. I like what you say, however, and will specifically mention it when I speak to him next. Thank you.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by JanSz

Right now you are just marking a time.

Make assesment when you reach:
FreeT~250 -300
FreeE2~0.45 (and host of other estrogens)
FreeT3 top of range
FreeT4 close to the top

And also there is about 75-100 of other (common) indicators that you may need to look into.

At least change to E3D schedule.

Originally Posted by anyman

Considering his reputation and more, I am not sure going against his advice is a good idea, at least at this early stage.




Considering his reputation and more, I am not sure going against his advice is a good idea, at least at this early stage. I have dealt with him enough to know that he expects his patients to at least try his plan for awhile and follow instructions. I like what you say, however, and will specifically mention it when I speak to him next. Thank you.

Do me a favor.
Copy my previus post and show it to him.
Report back his reaction.
------------------------------------------
Doctors observe patients personality and asses their goals if not spelled ot right.
If you want easy going do little treatment, that is what you are going to get.
If you tell him to be more pro-active, that is what you will get.

.

[anyman]

More than anything else the near constant fatigue, feelings of low energy and almost constant mild depression & irritability are the biggest annoyances.

Are these typically symptoms of low T, which one might assume should be a little better after 1 1/2 weeks on t cyp, or might rising E be an issue? Anything else I might be missing? I swear, before I started hcg and now T and hcg I never had any of these issues...... I'll give Dr S time to do his thing as he is remarkably well versed on these issues, but at times I am almost tempted to just stop everything and see where it goes!

Any other ideas or thoughts?

[hardasnails1973]

Originally Posted by anyman

More than anything else the near constant fatigue, feelings of low energy and almost constant mild depression & irritability are the biggest annoyances.

Are these typically symptoms of low T, which one might assume should be a little better after 1 1/2 weeks on t cyp, or might rising E be an issue? Anything else I might be missing? I swear, before I started hcg and now T and hcg I never had any of these issues...... I'll give Dr S time to do his thing as he is remarkably well versed on these issues, but at times I am almost tempted to just stop everything and see where it goes!

Any other ideas or thoughts?

DRs is good but hes not very aggressive in treating e2.
My freind could not stand HCG it put him bed and out of work for a week and half because the estrogen brought on horrible herpes out break. Hes now went to a University of pennn endo cost him 35 bucks (vs the 1000 bucks on shippen)and he just on plain testosterone 100 mgs a week feeling like a new man. It was a no brainer the hcg was driving the aromatse in his body. He stopped the hcg and now just doing testosterone and feels like a million bucks. If you are going to run hcg and test e2 must be closerly monitored and you may want to possible think about pellet implants that may reduce the e2 and make it more manageable with out drugs. Simple solution would be to stop the hcg and run higher testosterone then.6 a week then retest in 4 weeks to see where you are or to run everything and test and hcg and keep it in check with arimidex. Arimdex is a drug and proven to work and is easily monitored herbs are hit an mix and really no clinical blood tests to back them up..

[wondering]

I'm jumping in late, so not sure your details but....have you had thorough Thyroid panel...

TSH
Free T3
Free T4
Thyroid antibodies

--------

Originally Posted by anyman

More than anything else the near constant fatigue, feelings of low energy and almost constant mild depression & irritability are the biggest annoyances.

Are these typically symptoms of low T, which one might assume should be a little better after 1 1/2 weeks on t cyp, or might rising E be an issue? Anything else I might be missing? I swear, before I started hcg and now T and hcg I never had any of these issues...... I'll give Dr S time to do his thing as he is remarkably well versed on these issues, but at times I am almost tempted to just stop everything and see where it goes!

Any other ideas or thoughts?

[anyman]

The Dr did not rule them out, but thought the values were on the upper mid levels and not the proximate cause. He is well aware of thyroid possibilities, but is much more heavily leaning towards T & E at this point as the primary causes. We'll re-test the full thyroid panel in the future.

Thanks, as always, for the suggestions. Gives me answers, questions to ask the dr and more to research.

Originally Posted by wondering

I'm jumping in late, so not sure your details but....have you had thorough Thyroid panel...

TSH
Free T3
Free T4
Thyroid antibodies

--------

[anyman]

Originally Posted by hardasnails1973

DRs is good but hes not very aggressive in treating e2.
If you are going to run hcg and test e2 must be closerly monitored and you may want to possible think about pellet implants that may reduce the e2 and make it more manageable with out drugs. Simple solution would be to stop the hcg and run higher testosterone then.6 a week then retest in 4 weeks to see where you are or to run everything and test and hcg and keep it in check with arimidex. Arimdex is a drug and proven to work and is easily monitored herbs are hit an mix and really no clinical blood tests to back them up..

But-- in the long term it may pay off--or so I hope. Softer and more progressive measures can be more easily tweaked and adjusted without long term ill effects. The downside, of course, is that things can take noticeably longer. My philosophy here is "better right than rushed", even though emotionally I am pretty much done with this nonsense.

I am supposed to have blood on 10/24, after the 3rd T shot to see where T, E and DHT, etc are. We'll re-adjust thereafter, or so I am told. E was quite elevated on hcg alone. At 1500iu 3x/week (yes, a high level, but temporary as intended to jump start things) I saw E of 75. Ugh....

[hardasnails1973]

Originally Posted by anyman

But-- in the long term it may pay off--or so I hope. Softer and more progressive measures can be more easily tweaked and adjusted without long term ill effects. The downside, of course, is that things can take noticeably longer. My philosophy here is "better right than rushed", even though emotionally I am pretty much done with this nonsense.

I am supposed to have blood on 10/24, after the 3rd T shot to see where T, E and DHT, etc are. We'll re-adjust thereafter, or so I am told. E was quite elevated on hcg alone. At 1500iu 3x/week (yes, a high level, but temporary as intended to jump start things) I saw E of 75. Ugh....

What you have to consider you have a life and need to get functioning normal and this long term crap is not going to be doing you any good if you do not have a life and job to function at. These long term approaches aint doing you any good now are they and its just more money in there pocket !!
As a patient I do not want to be a freaken lab rat to test things out to see if they work or not. I was a guineua pig for 3 years and i finally got feed up with drs throwing darts at dart board and seeing where it landed next to treat. I took the bull by the horns found a dr that was aggressive with treatment and I am alot better now.

[anyman]

Well, here I am after 3 weeks on .6ml of 100mg T cyp and 300iu hcg 2x/week and I feel no different at all. Still awaiting blood work results, however.

In the interim, Dr S has suggested I raise my regimen to .8ml and 400iu of hcg 2x/week. We'll re-evaluate after Quest decides to finally release the results and he returns from vacation.

I was hoping for more. Kinda anxious to see the blood work when it gets here.......

[hardasnails1973]

Originally Posted by anyman

Well, here I am after 3 weeks on .6ml of 100mg T cyp and 300iu hcg 2x/week and I feel no different at all. Still awaiting blood work results, however.

In the interim, Dr S has suggested I raise my regimen to .8ml and 400iu of hcg 2x/week. We'll re-evaluate after Quest decides to finally release the results and he returns from vacation.

I was hoping for more. Kinda anxious to see the blood work when it gets here.......

If its an e2 problem? Why not check the e2 first before moving to a higher dosage. E2 tests takes 2 days to get back. and if there is an e2 problem he will try chyrsin first which is compounded and mostlikely not convered by insurance were arimidex is a drug and FDA approved. Has he suggested pellets possible as well. If your e2 is that bad then pellets may be in your future. Its good that he is giving you the go ahead with increasing the dosages most drs wouldn't and let you hanging

[T800]

My insurance denied coverage of arimidex saying that it wasn't FDA approved for what we use it for (estrogen control). It's only FDA approved for treatment of breast cancer in women. Sucks...it's an expensive drug!

anyman: Thanks for keeping us posted. How does what your feeling now stack up compared to the early and later HCG-only doses?

Sonny

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by T800

My insurance denied coverage of arimidex saying that it wasn't FDA approved for what we use it for (estrogen control). It's only FDA approved for treatment of breast cancer in women. Sucks...it's an expensive drug!

anyman: Thanks for keeping us posted. How does what your feeling now stack up compared to the early and later HCG-only doses?

Sonny

Use LiquiDex.
Easier life with LiquiDex, any desired dose can be had conveniently.
I do not even mention that it costs less.

[anyman]

Originally Posted by T800

anyman: Thanks for keeping us posted. How does what your feeling now stack up compared to the early and later HCG-only doses?

Sonny

Three weeks into the T-cyp/hcg regimen and I feel no better. Still battling more more common than not feelings of being "down" or "blah" and to ever present lack of energy. Libido sucks, pun intended, and intermittent erectile issues persist. Oddly enough, I consistently feel the best mentally as the evening wears on. From 9pm on I actually feel pretty good. Weird.

I must be there for my kids and still force myself to go to the gym and, of course, the office, but what is keenly missing is enjoyment of life. For example, I picked up a new BMW just last week and was not nearly as interested as I was with past ones. I wasn't even going to bother, but it was already ordered and my wife say "Ah- go ahead with it- you'll enjoy it". I'd trade the car and much else for a sense of peace and well being. Can't explain what I can only label as mild-moderate depression. Wife, job, kids and family, etc are all pretty good-- why the "blahs"?? Makes no sense.

At this point I am puzzled, as I really thought that adding T cyp would make a pronounced difference. Perhaps it's not a high enough does (.6ml of 100mg) and/or E2 is out of whack as started to happen when on higher amounts of hcg. Even though I l