[hardasnails1973]

Originally Posted by anyman

Since I got the news that 3 weeks on hcg (500iu 3x/wk) has done nothing, I was told to try a full 1000 3x/wk for a few weeks to see if something can be shaken up before we resort to TRT. It'll be interesting to see where that goes, although at this point I don't expect much.

I've pretty much resigned myself to starting TRT. Just need to get the final word and instructions from Dr. S when I speak to him next week. As much as I am put off by needing it, I am not seeing any other choices. Kinda hard to be a good Dad and husband when I am constantly battling fatigue, irritability and even depression--things I never had before this nonsense started. I am troubled greatly by having to do this at all of 43 yrs of age. However, the alternative is now worse. Time to move forward. Can't say I didn't try everything to avoid it.

At this point I almost look forward to it. I wonder if he'll suggest topicals or T cyp. I tried 5g Androgel 1x/day and then 2x/day for all of a 1-1/2 months last winter. Saw only a 100 point rise in T. Maybe he'll suggest a stronger compouded cream or something.

I'll post more details as I get them. Suggestions, discussions and input are, as always, welcome.

\

Well I like the idea that its just for a few weeks rather then a few months and you feel worse. I'm sure you will monitor your e2 at the same time so it does not go up the ass. Why would he do like 400 ius a day every day to keep things in your system on a nice even ride? and I would go right to the shots because you know gels do not work for you in the past why waste more time then you need to be feel like crap. I am surprised he does not investigate estrogen metabolism first visit. As a dr I would want to rule out all variables before hand to see if there was metabolic road block some where before looking for symptoms of the cause..

[anyman]

Originally Posted by hardasnails1973

\

Well I like the idea that its just for a few weeks rather then a few months and you feel worse. I'm sure you will monitor your e2 at the same time so it does not go up the ass. Why would he do like 400 ius a day every day to keep things in your system on a nice even ride? and I would go right to the shots because you know gels do not work for you in the past why waste more time then you need to be feel like crap. I am surprised he does not investigate estrogen metabolism first visit. As a dr I would want to rule out all variables before hand to see if there was metabolic road block some where before looking for symptoms of the cause..

Acoording to his ass't the E2 is not elevated at all. It's still under 32 per the Quest test he ordered. This puzzles me. If E2is not arising via aromatization, then what is all the hcg I've taken done? Why hasn't it done anything? I wonder if the 7 hours or so of unrefridgerated time between him mixing it and my return home could have spoiled it. He didn't think it would. I'll be trying a new bottle tonight, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

I'll defer to him on the shots vs topicals. To be fair, I only tried Andrgel for 6 weeks at most. Maybe a 5% compounded would be better. I have no idea.

Either way, we speak again on 9/5. I'm rather anxious to see where this goes. Now that I've tried pertty much everything I can think of to avoid external T I'm looking forward to taking the next step-and hopefully feeling better than I have in a long time.

[hardasnails1973]

Originally Posted by anyman

Acoording to his ass't the E2 is not elevated at all. It's still under 32 per the Quest test he ordered. This puzzles me. If E2is not arising via aromatization, then what is all the hcg I've taken done? Why hasn't it done anything? I wonder if the 7 hours or so of unrefridgerated time between him mixing it and my return home could have spoiled it. He didn't think it would. I'll be trying a new bottle tonight, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

I'll defer to him on the shots vs topicals. To be fair, I only tried Andrgel for 6 weeks at most. Maybe a 5% compounded would be better. I have no idea.

Either way, we speak again on 9/5. I'm rather anxious to see where this goes. Now that I've tried pertty much everything I can think of to avoid external T I'm looking forward to taking the next step-and hopefully feeling better than I have in a long time.

Well like I said give him time but do not let it go for 3-4 months because that is time that is lost and you could be getting better. e2 is a tricky bugger if shbg is low 20 then 32 may be a good number but some people here may need it to be lower to feel more optimal but that is some thing for him to decide. I kow Ksman feels difference from 37 to 20 big time just some thing to think about . Dr s is the dr though..

I know where my problem is point blank
Dim is causing a over flow of 2 and 4 hydroxestrones which can not be methyltaed. Its straining my methyl groups (low homocystein levels) can not keep up with the demand. So I increased sam-e to 800 and TMG to 500 mgs BID to really suport methyation. Esrtogen metabolites are running rampant causing all kinds of estrogen and e2 imbalances. I got worse when i started DIm now I know why !!

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by hardasnails1973

Well like I said give him time but do not let it go for 3-4 months because that is time that is lost and you could be getting better. e2 is a tricky bugger if shbg is low 20 then 32 may be a good number but some people here may need it to be lower to feel more optimal but that is some thing for him to decide. I kow Ksman feels difference from 37 to 20 big time just some thing to think about . Dr s is the dr though..

I know where my problem is point blank
Dim is causing a over flow of 2 and 4 hydroxestrones which can not be methyltaed. Its straining my methyl groups (low homocystein levels) can not keep up with the demand. So I increased sam-e to 800 and TMG to 500 mgs BID to really suport methyation. Esrtogen metabolites are running rampant causing all kinds of estrogen and e2 imbalances. I got worse when i started DIm now I know why !!

What is BID ?

I take 2pills 500mg TMG
with my DIM

And I do not really take pure DIM, I take Dual_Action

You may want to try what I do:
--------------------------------
2 pills
TMG
500 mg, 180 tablets
Item Catalog Number: 359
http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00359.html
-------------------------------------
4 pills
Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract With Resveratrol & Cat's Claw
60 vegetarian capsules
Item Catalog Number: 969
http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00969.html
but LEF recomends one pill for up to 160# body weight,
over that another pill. So you would use only 2 pills per their recomendations.
---------------------------------------------------------
2 pills
SAMe (S-adenosyl-methionine)
200 mg, 50 enteric coated tablets
Item Catalog Number: 453
http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00453.html
------------------------------------------------------------

[hardasnails1973]

Originally Posted by JanSz

What is BID ?

I take 2pills 500mg TMG
with my DIM

And I do not really take pure DIM, I take Dual_Action

You may want to try what I do:
--------------------------------
2 pills
TMG
500 mg, 180 tablets
Item Catalog Number: 359
http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00359.html
-------------------------------------
4 pills
Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract With Resveratrol & Cat's Claw
60 vegetarian capsules
Item Catalog Number: 969
http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00969.html
but LEF recomends one pill for up to 160# body weight,
over that another pill. So you would use only 2 pills per their recomendations.
---------------------------------------------------------
2 pills
SAMe (S-adenosyl-methionine)
200 mg, 50 enteric coated tablets
Item Catalog Number: 453
http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00453.html
------------------------------------------------------------

BID = 2 times a day so basically what you are doing/

Janzs my methyation is very low and from my research TMG takes care of only the 4 hydroxy not the 2 hydrox methoxy estrones which are metabolized by COMT enyzme driven by sam-e. So since taken DIm I probably had a build up of 16,4, 2 , methhydrox estrones which are the ones that are causing all my damage and depelting methyl groups. On my Intracell testing My b -12 , folate calcium all dropped like a rock indicating undermethyation from what remains to be seen probably the build of estrone no being metabolized properly in the first place..Tell you trouth since starting DIM i feel worse then before and feels like my , plus my thyroid , dopamine and neurotransmitters are off because of undermethyation

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by hardasnails1973

BID = 2 times a day so basically what you are doing/

Janzs my methyation is very low and from my research TMG takes care of only the 4 hydroxy not the 2 hydrox methoxy estrones which are metabolized by COMT enyzme driven by sam-e. So since taken DIm I probably had a build up of 16,4, 2 , methhydrox estrones which are the ones that are causing all my damage and depelting methyl groups. On my Intracell testing My b -12 , folate calcium all dropped like a rock indicating undermethyation from what remains to be seen probably the build of estrone no being metabolized properly in the first place..Tell you trouth since starting DIM i feel worse then before and feels like my , plus my thyroid , dopamine and neurotransmitters are off because of undermethyation

I repeat again
DualAction from LEF contains very little DIM
and many other ingredients.

Yet, its purpose is to work on 2/16 ratio.
http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00969.html
Why do not you give it a chance, you are screwing up with other DIM's long enough.
LEF have about 60 scientists and other doctors, I assume they must know something.

http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00969.html
==========================================
==========================================
Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract With Resveratrol & Cat's Claw
60 vegetarian capsules
Item Catalog Number: 969
Scientists have identified specific extracts from cruciferous vegetables (broccoli, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, etc.) that modulate hormones in a way to help maintain healthy cell division. For instance, animal studies have shown that the cruciferous vegetable extract indole-3-carbinol (I3C) modulates estrogen hormones by favorably changing the ratio of protective 2-hydroxyestrone versus the damaging 16-hydroxyestrone.1 Indole-3-carbinol also induces phase I and II detoxifying enzymes that can help neutralize estrogen metabolites and xenobiotic estrogen-like environmental chemicals.2 Human studies support the beneficial role of I3C in positively altering estrogen metabolism.3 Di-indolyl-methane (DIM), a phytonutrient found in cruciferous vegetables, has been shown in animal studies to help maintain normal levels of a potentially damaging estrogen called 4-hydroxyestrone.4

The glucosinolates are major constituents of cruciferous vegetables that have been shown to promote normal apoptosis and induce the expression of the beneficial p53 gene via an estrogen-independent action.5

Watercress contains isothiocyanates, but in a broader spectrum than does broccoli. The primary isothiocyanate precursor (PEiTC) in watercress functions via four specific mechanisms to maintain healthy cell division.6 Extracts from rosemary enhance liver metabolism of estradiol and estrone,7 inhibits the formation of DNA adducts,8 and have been shown to impede estrogen-induced growth promotion in certain tissues.7

Cat’s Claw, the Amazonian wonder herb, also known as Uncaria tomentosa or Uña de Gato, has been available for years, but there are various qualities of extracts. Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable products contain only Cat’s Claw water extract which has naturally occurring potent compounds called carboxy alkyl esters. These compounds, not found in typical Cat’s Claw products, have properties of DNA repair and anti-inflammation, and immune stimulation. Cat's claw protects cells against oxidative stress and inhibits lipopolysaccharide-induced iNOS gene expression, nitrite formation, cell death and inhibited the activation of NF-kappaB.9

The Cat’s Claw water extract material is produced through a patented aqueous extraction process which also removes tetracyclic oxindole alkaloids (TOA). TOA inhibit the activity of the other active compounds in Cat’s Claw, so it was highest priority to find a TOA-free Cat’s Claw to deliver maximum benefit.

The patented extraction process produces a standardized water soluble extract that can be readily absorbed by the body.

Life Extension has combined its cruciferous vegetable complex with a standardized resveratrol extract based on indications from published scientific literature that resveratrol may also be an effective plant extract for maintaining optimal health.

This organic whole-grape extract contains a spectrum of polyphenols naturally found in red wine, such as proanthocyanidins, anthocyanins, and flavonoids.

References
1. Biochem Pharm. 2002, 64;393-404.
2. Toxicol Appl Pharm. 2001 Jul 15;174(2):146-52.
3. J Natl Cancer Inst. 1997 May 21;89(10):718-23.
4. Cancer Detect Prevent. 2004;28:72-9.
5. Carcinogenesis. 2002 Apr;23(4):581-6.
6. Mol Cancer Ther. 2003 Oct;2(10);1045-52.
7. Carcinogenesis. 1998 Oct;19(10):1821-7.
8. Carcinogenesis. 1995 Sep;16(9):2057-62.
9. Aliment Pharmacol Ther. 1998 Dec;12(12):1279-89.
Supplement Facts
Serving Size 1 capsule

Servings Per Container 60

Amount Per Serving
Broccoli (Brassica oleracea l.) Super Concentrate Extract
400 mg

(plant and sprouts) [std. to 4% glucosinolates (16 mg)]


Watercress (Nasturtium officinale) 4:1 Extract (leaf)
100 mg

Indole-3-Carbinol (I3C)
80 mg

Rosemary (Rosmarinus officinalis) Extract (leaves)
50 mg

[std. to 20% diterpenic compounds (10 mg) and


providing carnosic acid/carnosol]


Cat's Claw (Uncaria tomentosa) Extract (bark)
50 mg

[std. to 8% carboxy alkyl esters (4 mg)]


Resveratrol [from Red Grape (Vitis vinifera) Extract
20 mg

(whole fruit) and Polygonum cuspidatum Extract (root)]


DIM (Di-indolyl-methane)
14 mg

Other ingredients: rice flour, vegetable capsule, magnesium stearate, silica.

Contains yeast, rice, and corn. This product contains NO milk, egg, fish, peanuts, crustacean shellfish (lobster, crab, shrimp), soybeans, tree nuts, wheat, or gluten. Contains NO artificial sweeteners, flavors, colors, or preservatives.


Dosage and Use
One capsule daily for individuals weighing up to 160 pounds.

Those weighing over 160 pounds, take two capsules daily.

This product can be taken with or without food, or as recommended by a healthcare practitioner.


Caution
May interfere with oral contraceptives. If pregnant or intending to become pregnant, do not use this product. Do not use if taking antacids, H2-receptor blockers (e.g. Zantac®), or proton-pump inhibitors (e.g. Nexium®), as these drugs may impede the conversion of I3C to active metabolites.

[hardasnails1973]

Originally Posted by JanSz

I repeat again
DualAction from LEF contains very little DIM
and many other ingredients.

Yet, its purpose is to work on 2/16 ratio.
http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00969.html
Why do not you give it a chance, you are screwing up with other DIM's long enough.
LEF have about 60 scientists and other doctors, I assume they must know something.

http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00969.html
==========================================
==========================================
Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract With Resveratrol & Cat's Claw
60 vegetarian capsules
Item Catalog Number: 969
Scientists have identified specific extracts from cruciferous vegetables (broccoli, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, etc.) that modulate hormones in a way to help maintain healthy cell division. For instance, animal studies have shown that the cruciferous vegetable extract indole-3-carbinol (I3C) modulates estrogen hormones by favorably changing the ratio of protective 2-hydroxyestrone versus the damaging 16-hydroxyestrone.1 Indole-3-carbinol also induces phase I and II detoxifying enzymes that can help neutralize estrogen metabolites and xenobiotic estrogen-like environmental chemicals.2 Human studies support the beneficial role of I3C in positively altering estrogen metabolism.3 Di-indolyl-methane (DIM), a phytonutrient found in cruciferous vegetables, has been shown in animal studies to help maintain normal levels of a potentially damaging estrogen called 4-hydroxyestrone.4

The glucosinolates are major constituents of cruciferous vegetables that have been shown to promote normal apoptosis and induce the expression of the beneficial p53 gene via an estrogen-independent action.5

Watercress contains isothiocyanates, but in a broader spectrum than does broccoli. The primary isothiocyanate precursor (PEiTC) in watercress functions via four specific mechanisms to maintain healthy cell division.6 Extracts from rosemary enhance liver metabolism of estradiol and estrone,7 inhibits the formation of DNA adducts,8 and have been shown to impede estrogen-induced growth promotion in certain tissues.7

Cat’s Claw, the Amazonian wonder herb, also known as Uncaria tomentosa or Uña de Gato, has been available for years, but there are various qualities of extracts. Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable products contain only Cat’s Claw water extract which has naturally occurring potent compounds called carboxy alkyl esters. These compounds, not found in typical Cat’s Claw products, have properties of DNA repair and anti-inflammation, and immune stimulation. Cat's claw protects cells against oxidative stress and inhibits lipopolysaccharide-induced iNOS gene expression, nitrite formation, cell death and inhibited the activation of NF-kappaB.9

The Cat’s Claw water extract material is produced through a patented aqueous extraction process which also removes tetracyclic oxindole alkaloids (TOA). TOA inhibit the activity of the other active compounds in Cat’s Claw, so it was highest priority to find a TOA-free Cat’s Claw to deliver maximum benefit.

The patented extraction process produces a standardized water soluble extract that can be readily absorbed by the body.

Life Extension has combined its cruciferous vegetable complex with a standardized resveratrol extract based on indications from published scientific literature that resveratrol may also be an effective plant extract for maintaining optimal health.

This organic whole-grape extract contains a spectrum of polyphenols naturally found in red wine, such as proanthocyanidins, anthocyanins, and flavonoids.

References
1. Biochem Pharm. 2002, 64;393-404.
2. Toxicol Appl Pharm. 2001 Jul 15;174(2):146-52.
3. J Natl Cancer Inst. 1997 May 21;89(10):718-23.
4. Cancer Detect Prevent. 2004;28:72-9.
5. Carcinogenesis. 2002 Apr;23(4):581-6.
6. Mol Cancer Ther. 2003 Oct;2(10);1045-52.
7. Carcinogenesis. 1998 Oct;19(10):1821-7.
8. Carcinogenesis. 1995 Sep;16(9):2057-62.
9. Aliment Pharmacol Ther. 1998 Dec;12(12):1279-89.
Supplement Facts
Serving Size 1 capsule

Servings Per Container 60

Amount Per Serving
Broccoli (Brassica oleracea l.) Super Concentrate Extract
400 mg

(plant and sprouts) [std. to 4% glucosinolates (16 mg)]


Watercress (Nasturtium officinale) 4:1 Extract (leaf)
100 mg

Indole-3-Carbinol (I3C)
80 mg

Rosemary (Rosmarinus officinalis) Extract (leaves)
50 mg

[std. to 20% diterpenic compounds (10 mg) and


providing carnosic acid/carnosol]


Cat's Claw (Uncaria tomentosa) Extract (bark)
50 mg

[std. to 8% carboxy alkyl esters (4 mg)]


Resveratrol [from Red Grape (Vitis vinifera) Extract
20 mg

(whole fruit) and Polygonum cuspidatum Extract (root)]


DIM (Di-indolyl-methane)
14 mg

Other ingredients: rice flour, vegetable capsule, magnesium stearate, silica.

Contains yeast, rice, and corn. This product contains NO milk, egg, fish, peanuts, crustacean shellfish (lobster, crab, shrimp), soybeans, tree nuts, wheat, or gluten. Contains NO artificial sweeteners, flavors, colors, or preservatives.


Dosage and Use
One capsule daily for individuals weighing up to 160 pounds.

Those weighing over 160 pounds, take two capsules daily.

This product can be taken with or without food, or as recommended by a healthcare practitioner.


Caution
May interfere with oral contraceptives. If pregnant or intending to become pregnant, do not use this product. Do not use if taking antacids, H2-receptor blockers (e.g. Zantac®), or proton-pump inhibitors (e.g. Nexium®), as these drugs may impede the conversion of I3C to active metabolites.

Running out of iodoral does not help !!
did you everything that your drop in estrogens where due to iodine instead of lef products?

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by hardasnails1973

Running out of iodoral does not help !!
did you everything that your drop in estrogens where due to iodine instead of lef products?

Go tomorrow morning to herbal store, get Lugol's solution.

If you can wait couple days:
http://www.amazon.com/Lugols-Iodine-...8264332&sr=8-1

[hardasnails1973]

Originally Posted by JanSz

Go tomorrow morning to herbal store, get Lugol's solution.

If you can wait couple days:
Amazon.com: Lugol's Iodine(2 Fluid Oz.): Health & Personal Care

I just ordered iodoral but I will see if they have luguols in my health food store.
I"m thinking that the increase in thyroid with out the iodine is doing me in.

Intersting concept
Thyroid medicines depeltes iodine and iodine convertes bad estrogen to good estrogen so theory about having iodine defiecincy and being on thyroid medicine does have cretince

article on estrogen mediated cancer

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by hardasnails1973

I just ordered iodoral but I will see if they have luguols in my health food store.
I"m thinking that the increase in thyroid with out the iodine is doing me in.

Intersting concept
Thyroid medicines depeltes iodine and iodine convertes bad estrogen to good estrogen so theory about having iodine defiecincy and being on thyroid medicine does have cretince

article on estrogen mediated cancer

This article is written by Jonathan Wright M.D.
-----
He recomends lithium for everybody.
Wonder how goood it is?

[hardasnails1973]

Originally Posted by JanSz

This article is written by Jonathan Wright M.D.
-----
He recomends lithium for everybody.
Wonder how goood it is?

I prefer this guy as well
http://www.newswithviews.com/Howenstine/james61.htm
http://www.newswithviews.com/Howenstine/jamesA.htm

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by hardasnails1973

I just ordered iodoral but I will see if they have luguols in my health food store.
I"m thinking that the increase in thyroid with out the iodine is doing me in.

Intersting concept
Thyroid medicines depeltes iodine and iodine convertes bad estrogen to good estrogen so theory about having iodine defiecincy and being on thyroid medicine does have cretince

article on estrogen mediated cancer

Jonathan Wright M.D.
writes:
Unfortunately, it's not yet possible for those of us who aren't researchers to test for 4-hyroxyestrone or its even more dangerous oxidized metabolites; hopefully, that testing will be available in two to three years.
----------------------------------------------------------
I note that
for example Genova Diagnostics (Great Smokies)
http://www.gdx.net/home/assessments/...tems/endo.html
do only 2/16 rato, there is no 4-hyroxyestrone included.

but

http://www.rheinlabs.com/hp.html

lists all three: 2, 4 and 16

This looks like wery important information.

For some reason I do not see (on this board) much importance assigned to
The “4-hydroxyestrone” theory
============================================
Also on his web site I do not see much about 4-hydroxyestrone.

http://www.tahoma-clinic.com/estrogen2.shtml

[hardasnails1973]

Originally Posted by JanSz

Jonathan Wright M.D.
writes:
Unfortunately, it's not yet possible for those of us who aren't researchers to test for 4-hyroxyestrone or its even more dangerous oxidized metabolites; hopefully, that testing will be available in two to three years.
----------------------------------------------------------
I note that
for example Genova Diagnostics (Great Smokies)
GDX Endocrinology Laboratory Assessments
do only 2/16 rato, there is no 4-hyroxyestrone included.

but

Hormone Profiling

lists all three: 2, 4 and 16

This looks like wery important information.

For some reason I do not see (on this board) much importance assigned to
The “4-hydroxyestrone” theory
============================================
Also on his web site I do not see much about 4-hydroxyestrone.

Introducing FemRatio and MaleRatio

Check again !!
Genova Diagnostics EstroEssence
I just called the lab and it has like 30 dfferent plus hgh tests ALL ESTROGEN in estroessence complete

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by hardasnails1973

Check again !!
Genova Diagnostics EstroEssence
I just called the lab and it has like 30 dfferent plus hgh tests ALL ESTROGEN in estroessence complete

Last Sunday I e-mailed my doctor request for scripts for Armour
and my next blood test.
When I came to pick up the scripts he told me to make longer appointment soon, he suggested me to do

Metabolic Oxidative Profile,

but had no time to go into any detals.
I think it is at Smokies Laboratory, Genova Diagnostics.
They have a number of similar metabolic tests.
Wonder if you, HAN, could pin point which one I want.
At the same time, I think I want to check the 2, 4, 16 Hydroxyestrones, (possibly other stuff).
Again there is few similar tests that the ofer,
would you please tell me which one I want.

Exact name of test and link to it.

Thank you.