[anyman]

Where I remain stuck is how I could be classified as "secondary", i.e. low FSH/LH/T and then, when LH is added, see pretty much nothing. Does this mean I and guys like me may also be acquired primary as well? What puzzles me even more is how clomid resulted in some improvement (200 to 319 or so), while hcg did almost nothing. Still pondering this one.

You're likely right. Looks like external T is the only way to go. Damn......

As always, I appreciate the input and will keep all posted as things change.

Originally Posted by T800

anyman: Your balls are not making Testosterone. You've done 2 tests that confirm this:

1. Clomid stimulation test: This works by raising LH. When LH rises, your balls make Testosterone as a response to it.

2. HCG: HCG is an LH-analog. It looks like LH to your body and should exhibit the same response of elevated LH.

It looks to me like Dr Shippen tried 2 ways to make your body help itself before resorting to bring Testosterone in externally. He is known for this approach vs going straight to using Testosterone.

If you're not making Testosterone and you need it, you have to get it into your body externally. For you to raise it, you will need to be on a gel, cream, or injectible. Your lab results don't mean that you can't raise your T. They simply mean that your body will not do it for you when asked to do so.

Given how you've been feeling and this news in general, I can see why this is upsetting, but don't stress too much. Most guys on TRT are getting Test externally anyway. The option you have left (external Testosterone) is the one that most guys use.

Sonny

[hardasnails1973]

Originally Posted by anyman

Where I remain stuck is how I could be classified as "secondary", i.e. low FSH/LH/T and then, when LH is added, see pretty much nothing. Does this mean I and guys like me may also be acquired primary as well? What puzzles me even more is how clomid resulted in some improvement (200 to 319 or so), while hcg did almost nothing. Still pondering this one.

You're likely right. Looks like external T is the only way to go. Damn......

As always, I appreciate the input and will keep all posted as things change.

If your balls mesage is being sent out and your balls are not responding then I say its you nuts are the problem or something is blocking the message. Possuible fuked e metabolism could be the culprit due to all the hidden estrogens in our environmnet these days..And understand these just did not come up with in the last few months but rather have been accumulating for long time but now are just are bodys are saturatesd with it that we are starting to feel the effects NOW !!

[plymouth city]

Originally Posted by JanSz

Respect for doctors is good thing.
I vote for that early and often.

When in your search you come up with with something that is worth recomending, you amy want to put together something concise that latter you can refer to, when helping others.

Following dr John's receipe for success (but even shorter if possible).

Absolutely. Agree here.

Putting together a protocol would be fun.

However so much of my work would be plagarizing Dr Johns work so it would be pointless

[plymouth city]

Originally Posted by anyman

Where I remain stuck is how I could be classified as "secondary", i.e. low FSH/LH/T and then, when LH is added, see pretty much nothing. Does this mean I and guys like me may also be acquired primary as well? What puzzles me even more is how clomid resulted in some improvement (200 to 319 or so), while hcg did almost nothing. Still pondering this one.

You're likely right. Looks like external T is the only way to go. Damn......

As always, I appreciate the input and will keep all posted as things change.

Anyman,

I've spoken on this before. To many people put to much stock in this "primary" "secondary" yada yada yada stuff.

Some are estrogen dominant, some are cortisol dominant. There is so much going on it is hard to pinpoint anything.

To be honest, its cool Dr Shippen tried to get you restarted, but, for the most part, most of the people I have seen that rebooted their HTPA axis were younger guys who weren't all that badd off in the first place.

I haven't heard from anyone yet that had a T level in the low 200's being fixed. Never.

[anyman]

Can't disagree with what you say. I never thought early 40s was "old", but apparently I was wrong there as well. Seems that we are, much to my constant amazement and discomfort, a rather fragile and lame species. Intellectually, I understand how TRT can be good, but emotionally I'd like my body to at least shoulder some of the load!

Dr S had me do a "Neurotransmitter" test which I posted in another thread. The company, Neuro Science, conveniently sells supplements designed to address the issues raised, including basement levels of serotonin and suspected adrenal issues as well. The supplemements aren't cheap, but can be gotten on reputable mail order places for less money. The Dr. who Shippen works with also sells them, but at not so great prices. I'm sure there are cheaper alternatives, but for now I'll stick with the receommended course of action.

I broke down and spent the $142 for Adrecor, Serene Plus and Kavinace. Adrecor is for adrenal issues, while the others are for serotonin, etc. Should last for 1-2 months. Figure it likely won't hurt, especially given Dr S' endorsement. Would not even consider this but for him.

Now I am wondering if addressing the possible adrenal & serotonin issues might affect T as well. Maybe there will be an upside to all this. I welcome comments, etc and this.

Originally Posted by plymouth city

Anyman,

I've spoken on this before. To many people put to much stock in this "primary" "secondary" yada yada yada stuff.

Some are estrogen dominant, some are cortisol dominant. There is so much going on it is hard to pinpoint anything.

To be honest, its cool Dr Shippen tried to get you restarted, but, for the most part, most of the people I have seen that rebooted their HTPA axis were younger guys who weren't all that badd off in the first place.

I haven't heard from anyone yet that had a T level in the low 200's being fixed. Never.

[plymouth city]

Originally Posted by anyman

Can't disagree with what you say. I never thought early 40s was "old", but apparently I was wrong there as well. Seems that we are, much to my constant amazement and discomfort, a rather fragile and lame species. Intellectually, I understand how TRT can be good, but emotionally I'd like my body to at least shoulder some of the load!

.

Anyman,
Considering that human beings have been around, in one form or another, for tens of thousands of years, and, only recently, in the last thousand, have we lived into our 30's and 40's, it is understandable. Hypogonadism is directly a part of the aging process.

We are all fighting and chasing time.

[hardasnails1973]

Originally Posted by plymouth city

Anyman,
Considering that human beings have been around, in one form or another, for tens of thousands of years, and, only recently, in the last thousand, have we lived into our 30's and 40's, it is understandable. Hypogonadism is directly a part of the aging process.

We are all fighting and chasing time.

or working to manipulate mother nature LOL

[hardasnails1973]

Right now I am currently working with my dr to come up with some kind of protcol that will help narrow down specific areas of mens hormonal issues interlinked with other systems of the body to rule out any other variables that may be over looked.
from him and i working together on my case that contains such diversity and interactions from other systems he is learning more and more information that will put him up there with likes of DR J and Shippen and other pioneers in the very near future. And from being on here I can only thank all of you for contribution to the most satifying life changing board I have been part of and hopefully dr john will come back and grace us with his presence once again and Dr Delagado has also brought incredible information that will also give open minded dr's a new over looked approach to a simple solution that has been all along. As I stated 3 years ago in my threads at other boards. "mark my words estrogens are over looked now but will be a huge factor in the future" People laughed at me and now whos are not laughing..

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by anyman

Can't disagree with what you say. I never thought early 40s was "old", but apparently I was wrong there as well. Seems that we are, much to my constant amazement and discomfort, a rather fragile and lame species. Intellectually, I understand how TRT can be good, but emotionally I'd like my body to at least shoulder some of the load!

You are 40yo.
In the last at least 80 years or so, infant mortality has been tremendously reduced.
Natural selection is not acceptable, every baby, every body is being helped by ever progressing medicine.
Then these people procreate.
By now there is already third or secong generation of people that are alive against many odds.

Do you see where I am going?

Is any of these aplicable to you?

[anyman]

Originally Posted by JanSz

You are 40yo.
In the last at least 80 years or so, infant mortality has been tremendously reduced.
Natural selection is not acceptable, every baby, every body is being helped by ever progressing medicine.
Then these people procreate.
By now there is already third or secong generation of people that are alive against many odds.

Do you see where I am going?

Is any of these aplicable to you?

I was always concerned that medicine, while well intentioned, may be indirectly weakening our species. We've gone from a system that encourages strengthening of future gene pools to pretty much the exact opposite. I worry that future generations may be so weak they can't even breed without artificial assistance.

Tough issue. Very easy to be labeled in a negative way or seen as in favor of resurrecting the eugenics movement. However, as you point out, the facts don't lie. They just "are". The essential issue becomes how to balance our humanity and compassion with the long term good of the species? I'm still working on this one.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by anyman

I was always concerned that medicine, while well intentioned, may be indirectly weakening our species. We've gone from a system that encourages strengthening of future gene pools to pretty much the exact opposite. I worry that future generations may be so weak they can't even breed without artificial assistance.

Tough issue. Very easy to be labeled in a negative way or seen as in favor of resurrecting the eugenics movement. However, as you point out, the facts don't lie. They just "are". The essential issue becomes how to balance our humanity and compassion with the long term good of the species? I'm still working on this one.

You are so polite and well manered. Good background.

I wish you went on the (T+hcg) program soon and stop splitting hairs.

You have got what you got, you are here now, make the best of life that you can.

Asses your genes
and make decission if it is all rigt to procreate.
This must be left as your own decission.
.
.

[anyman]

Allow me to answer.

Originally Posted by JanSz

You are so polite and well manered. Good background.
Thanks. My wife might disagree, however!

I wish you went on the (T+hcg) program soon and stop splitting hairs.
I fully intend to. Just need to go on Dr S' schedule. As much as I'd like to rush, I must abide by his timeframe. However, I will try and accelerate it a bit.

You have got what you got, you are here now, make the best of life that you can.
Sound advice. Reading the article in Men's Health describing a 37 yr old Pro golfer so afflicted and his recovery helped me see it's not just a few of us here on an internet board.

Asses your genes
and make decission if it is all rigt to procreate.
This must be left as your own decission.
That I did. I've got 2 wonderful young daughters who are full of life and healthy. They are half the reason I am seeking treatment. They need a Dad, not a crabby old bastard.
.
.

[anyman]

This is still puzzling me. Trying to figure out out 1 week of clomid could raise T from 200 to about 319, while 3 whole weeks of hcg did pretty much nothing. I get that clomid can block E, but how did it raise T while hcg didn't?

Maybe hcg will take more time, or perhaps I'm just out of luck as increaseingly appears to be the case. For me, it might only be appropriate to keep what little natural funtioning I have left going and avoid shrinkage.

I understand that 319 is still less than half where I need to be, but the disparity still intrigues me.

Any thoughts?

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by anyman

This is still puzzling me. Trying to figure out out 1 week of clomid could raise T from 200 to about 319, while 3 whole weeks of hcg did pretty much nothing. I get that clomid can block E, but how did it raise T while hcg didn't?

Maybe hcg will take more time, or perhaps I'm just out of luck as increaseingly appears to be the case. For me, it might only be appropriate to keep what little natural funtioning I have left going and avoid shrinkage.

I understand that 319 is still less than half where I need to be, but the disparity still intrigues me.

Any thoughts?

From point of view of a doctor who like to build his knowledge basis, clomid vs HCG is important.

Clomid is only short term research tool.
HCG is long term.
Knowing that on Clomid testis produce somewhat more than on HCG is useless information. Specially that even on Clomid there is not even close to acceptable T level.

In the mean time health deteriorates, depression ensues, cholesterol gets out, arteries get clogged up.

[plymouth city]

Originally Posted by JanSz

From point of view of a doctor who like to build his knowledge basis, clomid vs HCG is important.

Clomid is only short term research tool.
HCG is long term.
Knowing that on Clomid testis produce somewhat more than on HCG is useless information. Specially that even on Clomid there is not even close to acceptable T level.

In the mean time health deteriorates, depression ensues, cholesterol gets out, arteries get clogged up.

Well said

[plymouth city]

Originally Posted by anyman

I was always concerned that medicine, while well intentioned, may be indirectly weakening our species. We've gone from a system that encourages strengthening of future gene pools to pretty much the exact opposite. I worry that future generations may be so weak they can't even breed without artificial assistance.

.

True in some regards but infair in others.

Take myself for example - great natural athlete, yet, if it wasn't for the invention of "glasses" and later "contact lenses" I woulda never lived past 13 in ancient times. Im so near sided I woulda never been able to hunt/fish/survive. So in a way I have been relient on medical technology since I was 13 to basically live - without it I could not.

Natural selection/evolution is a process that takes tens of thousands of years. Todays people are pretty much the same as the caveman who battled the land thousands of yars ago. We just live differently.

The troubling aspect of it all is how testosterone keeps plummeting. I believe that something chemical is going on here.