[anyman]

Brief recap: Adding cobalt drops and Arimidex to the Depo-T got my T FINALLY up to around 800, although E2 was too high at 50something.

Added more Arimidex to the equation per my Doctor and then...... something totally weird happened. T DROPPED to 528, while E2 also dropped to under 32.

Huh? I changed NOTHING except to add more Arimidex. How the heck did T DROP?? Makes no damned sense, unless the arimidex somehow interfered with T. I've been told to go up from 160mg depo-T per week to a full 200. Now that is weird.....

I know I am a hypermetabolizer, but wow. Just when I thought I might finally have it licked....... Any thoughts or suggestions?

[BrianEE93]

Originally Posted by anyman

Brief recap: Adding cobalt drops and Arimidex to the Depo-T got my T FINALLY up to around 800, although E2 was too high at 50something.

Added more Arimidex to the equation per my Doctor and then...... something totally weird happened. T DROPPED to 528, while E2 also dropped to under 32.

Huh? I changed NOTHING except to add more Arimidex. How the heck did T DROP?? Makes no damned sense, unless the arimidex somehow interfered with T. I've been told to go up from 160mg depo-T per week to a full 200. Now that is weird.....

I know I am a hypermetabolizer, but wow. Just when I thought I might finally have it licked....... Any thoughts or suggestions?

That is strange. I will be curious to see an explaination for this.

Welcome to the hypermetabolizer 200mg club!

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by anyman

Brief recap: Adding cobalt drops and Arimidex to the Depo-T got my T FINALLY up to around 800, although E2 was too high at 50something.

Added more Arimidex to the equation per my Doctor and then...... something totally weird happened. T DROPPED to 528, while E2 also dropped to under 32.

Huh? I changed NOTHING except to add more Arimidex. How the heck did T DROP?? Makes no damned sense, unless the arimidex somehow interfered with T. I've been told to go up from 160mg depo-T per week to a full 200. Now that is weird.....

I know I am a hypermetabolizer, but wow. Just when I thought I might finally have it licked....... Any thoughts or suggestions?

I am so pissed that I have to post twice.
Once here:
http://www.matrixnutritionandfitness...4023#post14023
now this:

I do not know about Arimidex but somehow seeing you waiting for about two years before you are "allowed" 200mg/week does not sound right to me.

Going slow may have advantage, but boy, this is not slow, this is basically standing still.

I suggest more frequent testing, and believing in every other results, Phil does that way.

200mg or more, I suggest EOD system until you get some traction.

Get nutritional analysis, you must have other problems that need to be figured out and dealt with.
.

[anyman]

Hasn't been that all that long.

Originally Posted by JanSz

I do not know about Arimidex but somehow seeing you waiting for about two years before you are "allowed" 200mg/week does not sound right to me.

I only started TRT about 8 months ago +/-. I was up to 180mg/week. Arimidex made the biggest difference-and at a lower (160mg/week) dose.

Going slow may have advantage, but boy, this is not slow, this is basically standing still.

Dr. Shippen is indeed a methodical man. Maddeningly so at times, but when 180-200mg/week is still not quite working then it is indeed time to think about what else is at issue.

I suggest more frequent testing, and believing in every other results, Phil does that way.

I test about every 4-5 weeks, as often as my insurance will allow. I try an adjustment for about 3 weeks and then test again

200mg or more, I suggest EOD system until you get some traction.

I am up to 200mg/week now and notice not much difference. I already inject depo-T 2x/week and hcg 2x/week

Get nutritional analysis, you must have other problems that need to be figured out and dealt with.

Looking into other issues/alternatives, but such is time consuming and cannot be rushed. I suspect I'll be seeing an add'l Dr perhaps in July. We'll know more then.
.

In the interim I am doing what I can. Not always fun, but what can I say?

[OldGator]

Originally Posted by The Matrix

IF I were you I would divide that that 650 by 5 and break it down to smaller hcg shots. Some people have an issue of going over 125 ius at time causes an metabolic pathway to estrones or estrodial. I can not explain why, but I have seen it occur time and time in people that I have come across. You may want to speak to kanecore because he had this same issue and once he lowered the hcg from 250 ius to 125ius or lower then his symptoms got better mainly his fatigue. It may also help to reduce the amouint of armidex needed as well. Just a thought..

Matrix may be on to something here.

I've been doing TRT about as long as Anyman (8 months). I started at 160mg ED of Compounded Test Cream and 1000-1200iu's of HCG a week. A long time ago doc said to do the HCG 2x a week (5-600iu twice a week) and my E went up from low 20's to mid 30.

For the last 3-4 months I've been doing my HCG ED (175iu's ED) and my E has anchored itself at 20-22, even as I increased my T-Cream dosage to 200mg ED!

In my case, it seems how I dose my HCG has more to do with my E levels than varying doses of the T-Cream itself.

On a side note, I enjoy dosing HCG ED (sub-Q). I swear I feel better in that I feel more "even keel".

[The Matrix]

Originally Posted by OldGator

Matrix may be on to something here.

I've been doing TRT about as long as Anyman (8 months). I started at 160mg ED of Compounded Test Cream and 1000-1200iu's of HCG a week. A long time ago doc said to do the HCG 2x a week (5-600iu twice a week) and my E went up from low 20's to mid 30.

For the last 3-4 months I've been doing my HCG ED (175iu's ED) and my E has anchored itself at 20-22, even as I increased my T-Cream dosage to 200mg ED!

In my case, it seems how I dose my HCG has more to do with my E levels than varying doses of the T-Cream itself.

On a side note, I enjoy dosing HCG ED (sub-Q). I swear I feel better in that I feel more "even keel".

i think you are more secondary vs primary as well you respond to HCG, so one may want to work on keep your t cream levels down, but increasing the hcg to thresh poiint of your benefit/risk ratio. BTW I had a wonderful time at the banquet, but i was want to bring home that big screen TV SO BAD !! HAHA Very elegant evening and was for great cause. I have been doing some brain storming on some things about CF that may open some more doors to helping controling it. !! It has to do with malfunctioning of a specific gene that can be manipulated to a point..

[OldGator]

Originally Posted by The Matrix

i think you are more secondary vs primary as well you respond to HCG, so one may want to work on keep your t cream levels down, but increasing the hcg to thresh poiint of your benefit/risk ratio. BTW I had a wonderful time at the banquet, but i was want to bring home that big screen TV SO BAD !! HAHA Very elegant evening and was for great cause. I have been doing some brain storming on some things about CF that may open some more doors to helping controling it. !! It has to do with malfunctioning of a specific gene that can be manipulated to a point..

Thanks for coming - we raised over $100k!
We'll meet up soon (outside anyman's thread).

BTW, agree with your point on decreasing cream and increasing HCG (secondary vs primary).

[anyman]

I've been all over the place as of late. T is recently in the 675 range, but with E2 at 84 (OUCH!!) with even sublingual Arimidex. Fatigue, mentally down and iffy erections have been an issue. Sleep has been tough to get, making things worse.

I had another phone consult w/ Dr Shippen. He was quite open to my suggestions and admitted I was indeed a puzzling case. We're not giving up, though.
He agreed that my consistently high cortisol that hasn't always responded to higher T needs to be addressed. "Adrenal Fatigue" may be a factor.

He suggests some adrenal tests to get a baseline, followed by further tests after taking a drug "Dexamesasomething" for 3 days to do a suppression test & see how I respond.

More interestingly still, he like the idea of switching to IM injections in the thigh for T cyp, agrees that regular arimidex pills are called for and wants to rule out everything else.

He was quite open to the adrenal issues, adding that such very often respond to higher T except in unusual cases--of which I might be one. My head is still bouncing all these things around.

As for sleeping issues/fatigue he agrees that the Cortisol could and likely is a factor. Wants to see what the tests reveal. He is not giving up and wants to try these tests as well.

Any thoughts/comments/discussion?

[The Matrix]

Originally Posted by anyman

I've been all over the place as of late. T is recently in the 675 range, but with E2 at 84 (OUCH!!) with even sublingual Arimidex. Fatigue, mentally down and iffy erections have been an issue. Sleep has been tough to get, making things worse.

I had another phone consult w/ Dr Shippen. He was quite open to my suggestions and admitted I was indeed a puzzling case. We're not giving up, though.
He agreed that my consistently high cortisol that hasn't always responded to higher T needs to be addressed. "Adrenal Fatigue" may be a factor.

He suggests some adrenal tests to get a baseline, followed by further tests after taking a drug "Dexamesasomething" for 3 days to do a suppression test & see how I respond.

More interestingly still, he like the idea of switching to IM injections in the thigh for T cyp, agrees that regular arimidex pills are called for and wants to rule out everything else.

He was quite open to the adrenal issues, adding that such very often respond to higher T except in unusual cases--of which I might be one. My head is still bouncing all these things around.

As for sleeping issues/fatigue he agrees that the Cortisol could and likely is a factor. Wants to see what the tests reveal. He is not giving up and wants to try these tests as well.

Any thoughts/comments/discussion?

I got all your info bro so we will be ready to rock on friday. You provided a huge piece of the puzzle that could be the key to what I have been pondering for quite some time with people that been prescribed other drugs in the past that could have affected there hormone axis. We are going to get down to bottom of it not leaving any stone unturned. Looking forward to talking to you soon ..

[anyman]

I've made "some" progress, only to discover as always that such is often fleeting and in need of fine tuning.

Thus far I got switched to regular Arimidex and not the compounded stuff. Also got my first Ultrasensitive E2 tests. Weird results. Here we go:

This is puzzling me. For the longest time I've had high E2 (50-70) on the regular test. When I got my first Ultra test I got the following:

T: 774
E2: <2
DHEAS: 302 (45-345)
ACTH: 17 (8-50)

I wonder if this explains the lack of AM wood, crappy erections and more as of late. Then again, maybe I am taking too much. I take the following:

T cyp: 160 mg/ week (2 doses of 80 each)
Arim: 1/2 tab (.5mg) 2x/week
Hcg: 325 units 2x/week

Perhaps the 1/2 tab is just too much and drivng things down.

This has been, and continues to be on ongoing saga. What a PITA! But, al least there has been some upward movement. I just wish I could be one of those guys who is low, takes a little A-gel and is thrilled. Wouldn't THAT be nice.....

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by anyman

I've made "some" progress, only to discover as always that such is often fleeting and in need of fine tuning.

Thus far I got switched to regular Arimidex and not the compounded stuff. Also got my first Ultrasensitive E2 tests. Weird results. Here we go:

This is puzzling me. For the longest time I've had high E2 (50-70) on the regular test. When I got my first Ultra test I got the following:

T: 774
E2: <2
DHEAS: 302 (45-345)
ACTH: 17 (8-50)

I wonder if this explains the lack of AM wood, crappy erections and more as of late. Then again, maybe I am taking too much. I take the following:

T cyp: 160 mg/ week (2 doses of 80 each)
Arim: 1/2 tab (.5mg) 2x/week
Hcg: 325 units 2x/week

Perhaps the 1/2 tab is just too much and drivng things down.

This has been, and continues to be on ongoing saga. What a PITA! But, al least there has been some upward movement. I just wish I could be one of those guys who is low, takes a little A-gel and is thrilled. Wouldn't THAT be nice.....

I would defilitely consider EOD schedule for T shots.
Each shot 25units
With your SHBG=12

Stop Arimidex
watch your nightly wood, specially after a week or two (up to a month),
resume on half or less of your current dose.

Compare urine vs blood T, E2, DHT other.

Have you done any other testing, post it?

[joe143]

Anyman, low e2 will have a bad effect on erections as well. Did you ever get your DHT checked?

[anyman]

Originally Posted by joe143

Anyman, low e2 will have a bad effect on erections as well. Did you ever get your DHT checked?

I too have heard that too low E2 will do this, hence my concern. I wonder.... Is this test accurate, or is .5mg 2x/week of Arimidex too high for me? I wonder.

The last I checked DHT it was mid range after being on the rather low side for quite some time.

I'll likely try a lower dose (1/4 tab) and see what happens.

[The Matrix]

Originally Posted by anyman

I too have heard that too low E2 will do this, hence my concern. I wonder.... Is this test accurate, or is .5mg 2x/week of Arimidex too high for me? I wonder.

The last I checked DHT it was mid range after being on the rather low side for quite some time.

I'll likely try a lower dose (1/4 tab) and see what happens.

You get customized drugs you get improper delivry systems, use real stuff get real results. Shippens should have learned this by now that compounded stuff is not always the best.

[anyman]

As some here may recall, I've had something of a saga stretching back some time. Despite endless tinkering, feeling normal has been somewhat elusive.
During this time, however, I've noted continuously high cortisol levels. Not so high so as to shock me, but always a point or 2 or 3 past the max range. Many, Dr Shippen included, kept saying that raising T would bring it down and relieve the fatigue, fuzzy head and mentally down periods. The problem, however, was that didn't happen. Everything from Rhein 24 hr tests to blood & then saliva tests showed the same thing: high and just past max range cortisol. I had some extra weight around the middle despite eating well & exercise and wondered about cortisol, but thought is an effect of something & not a root cause. Perhaps I was mistaken.
After discussing the issue w/ Dr Shippen he suggested a "Dexamethasone suppression test", where I get baseline blood work to measure all, including ACTH & a few weeks later take 50mg of Dex. for 3 days & retest. I was told that if I felt better to continue taking it. My first ACTH reading was 17 on an 8-50 scale. Could this be considered "low" notwithstanding the high cortisol? Hmmm...

Here's the weird part: After only 2 days on it I noticed I felt better. Calmer, more at peace and more energy. I didn't crash every afternoon and was able to awaken in something more than a depressed and lethargic state. I just had the 2nd round of blood work & won't have the results back for a bit.

Maybe this is coincidence, a placebo effect, merely temporary or something else. But----is it possible that cortisol has been a problem all along? I did a little research and found that low ACTH and higher cortisol can be indicative of an adrenal issue or even a tumor.
See here: ACTH: The Test

While a tumor is obviously unlikely and presupposes my ACTH level of 17 is low, I wonder if cortisol has been a bigger factor than anyone, me included, thought possible. This needs to be followed more closely.... Of course, I also need to determine how safe using Dexamethasone at what appears to be a low level of 50mg/day is.

[rfish1966]

I am interested to see what happens with you, I have about the same situation. On trt 200mg per week, adex and hcg. My numbers look good but I am still tired and in a fog, impossible to lose weight. My cortisol has been high on urine and bloodwork but my endo basically said it needs to be 4 times what normal is for her to worry.