Links between Estrogen and joint pain?

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    Links between Estrogen and joint pain?


    Hello to all this is my first post here. I have history of elevated estrogen, and was curious if there are any correlations between elevated estrogen and joint/ bone issues in men. Generally estrogen is looked at good as far as bone health in women, but what about an excess in men?


    I have lots of blood work and a lot of background information to provide, but don't have much time at the moment.

    Briefly, I am 25 yrs. old have been on hrt since 4/20/07.
    200mgs depo test weekly
    0.6 mgs HGH EOD (nutropin aq)
    Have yet to find an armotase inhibitor to stick with. Tried Letrozole but it left me very tired no matter if I took 2.5 mgs or a quater of that. Also tried a topical AI that I bought online that worked extremely well for me, but had to discontinue due to a rash.

    Thank you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by qwestar View Post
    Hello to all this is my first post here. I have history of elevated estrogen, and was curious if there are any correlations between elevated estrogen and joint/ bone issues in men. Generally estrogen is looked at good as far as bone health in women, but what about an excess in men?


    I have lots of blood work and a lot of background information to provide, but don't have much time at the moment.

    Briefly, I am 25 yrs. old have been on hrt since 4/20/07.
    200mgs depo test weekly
    0.6 mgs HGH EOD (nutropin aq)
    Have yet to find an armotase inhibitor to stick with. Tried Letrozole but it left me very tired no matter if I took 2.5 mgs or a quater of that. Also tried a topical AI that I bought online that worked extremely well for me, but had to discontinue due to a rash.

    Thank you!
    200mg/weekly

    is most likely too much
    is not frequent enough

    post your lattest known SHBG

    Letrozole is a killer, topicals are useless,

    try to minimize estrogen problems by proper dosing of testosteron
    use Arimidex if your E2 is actually high
    use other supplements for multitude of other estrogens

    do good blood test for all estrogens (and everything else) and then react accordingly.

    You have to be very systematic and organized otherwise you will chase your tail until you fall down.

    You may want to read this when you find some time.

    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007
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    I had posted this on another board a while back:

    Lets see where to start, here's an interesting rollercoaster ride I have taken in the last few years just to give some background...

    Prednisone is a medication I have taken on and off since I was very young for asthma with minimal sides (atleast to my knowledge). Fast foward to 2002 I take prednisone if I recall I think it was about 30-40 mg. a little higher than I had taken in the past. To make a very long and horrific story short I had experienced the worst possible side you can get from pred. a prednisone induced psychosis.

    I was rushed to the ER and what happened next was crazy. For several days I was given haldol, were I experienced all the other sides possible from it. By the time the doctors realized I wasn't really crazy and they found no drugs in my urine and blood except prednisone I was so messed up I had parkinsons like symptoms. Skipping the details on my stay in the psyc ward, I ended up in the ICU for 3 days and was given bromocriptine to negate all the other symptoms I developed. I spent a total of 13 days in the hospital.

    January 2007 I was scheduled for a shoulder surgery on jan 31, 07. I decided before the surgery to get blood work. I was very curious about my test and estrogen levels. (I have had gyno since puberty, and had all the symptoms of low test) I go and with no surprise find my Test levels very low at 301, and total estrogen extremely high almost double at 244 (less than 130).

    Rescheduled my shoulder surgery (June 6, 2007) and see an endo. I get several tests which thank God all come back negative MRI of Brain, ultrasound of testies, even a momogram <pseudogynecomastia with trace amount of left sided gynecomastia>. After much blood work with the endo my estradiol actually gets under control naturally, but Test levels remain low. He said sometimes the estrogen can fluctuate due to viral issues to explain why it's in range now. But did find
    Cortisol (blood)27.6 (3.0-22.4)
    24 hour urine Cortisol 98.8 (4.0-50.0)

    I am 25 yrs old and started HRT in april, during testing my GH levels were also very low. So currently I am 200mg cyp per wk and 0.6 mg of gh daily. After the first injection I felt the difference almost instantly (it was on a friday) but by that next thursday I felt it die out and felt my nips oh boy!!! This is where I need to dicuss further with my endo next visit. We had talked about taking arimidex in the past, but he just didn't want to start that yet. I informed him on the tissue in my chest becoming much firmer and some sensitivity, but still no go on the anti-e. My BP was high and he was concerned about it being good for my surgery, and said the adex would elavate it further.

    Everything was good the test was 2 wks after statring therapy total test up to 772 except estradiol as I expected it was way above level again 76 (less than 52). SHBG 13 (7-44) ACTH 16. Cortisol in range. I feel like I know my body so well now, when my test is low when my Estro is high.

    I am not experiencing anything in my nips since that day, but lets just say that I have yet to have that same feeling since that first shot.

    After 1 month on I have noticed a slight shrinkage in the testies, slight water retention.

    -------------------------------------

    Up until the middle of june I had been feeling much better, yet still felt like there was something missing in my body.
    At about the last week of june I was hit with all the syptoms that I felt before starting HRT, and this is where I stand now.

    As I have been reading more here I am learning the importance of all the different estrogen tests and the picking the right ones. When I first started seeing my endo (feb 24 2007) (jan 25 total E was 244) he tested my estradiol level and it was 24 (less than 52) (also just learned this isn't the best test for males). I was surprised how my estrogen had gotten so low then he mentioned the viral reasoning. When I asked about the total estrogens and esterones ect. he said all that mattered was the E2, and I believed him. unfurtunately there hadn't been a CBC done until recently by my request.

    Here are some of my test from FEB 24 07:
    All testing done by Shiel Laboratories in NY.

    FEB 24:
    *Phosphorus 5.1 (2.5-4.8)
    *Globulin 2.2 (2.3-3.7)
    DHEA Serum RIA 841 (140-850)
    Androsendione Serum RIA 209 (30-263)
    *Growth Hormone <0.1 (less than 10)
    ACTH 30 (7-50)
    Testosterone, Total RIA 379 (241-824)
    % Free Test 1.41 (0.95-4.30)
    % Free Test (%) 0.37 (0.32-0.51)
    t4 Free 1.69 (0.89-1.76)
    Cortisol 27.6 (3.0-22.4)
    FSH 3.4 (1.4-18.1)
    LH 4.04 (1.50-9.30)
    Estradiol 24 (less than 52)
    Prolactin 11.9 (2.1-17.7)
    *24 hr.Urine Cortisol 98.8 (4.0-50.0)
    •   
       

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    Forgot to mention endo also had me do a catscan of adrenals in the begining, everything was ok.

    5/3/07:
    IGF-1 339 (116-358) (most likely increased from prior TRT)
    DHEA 552 (140-850)
    SHBG 13 (7-44) As per my request
    Testosterone Total 772 (241-827)
    Tesotosterone (different lab??) 728 (241-827)
    FREE TEST 2.96 (0.95-4.30)
    % Free Test 0.38 (0.32-0.51)
    Cortisol 15.7 (3.0-22.4)
    DHT 25 (25-75)
    *Estradiol 76 (less than 52)
    -----------------------------
    Started GH May 7, 2007

    Testing from June 14 2007

    Tested Iron and CBC as per my request.

    *Iron 39 (45-182)

    CBC
    *WBC 11.6 (4.0-11.0)
    RBC 5.47 (4.20-6.00)
    *Hemoglobin 16.6 (12.6-16.4)
    *Neutrophils % 80.4 (40.0-70.0)
    *Lymohocytes % 13.0 (20.0-40.0)
    *Neutrophils, ABS 9.3 (1.6-7.8)
    Lymphocytes Abs 1.5 (1.0-4.5)
    MPV 8.3 (8.0-13.0)

    *IGF-1 551 (116-358)
    Growth Hormone 2.9 (less than 10)
    DHEA Serum RIA 7.8 (1.8-12.5)
    Testosterone 437 (241-827) (Took Shot on sunday test was on thursday)
    *LH 0.30 (1.4-18.1)
    *FSH 0.07 (1.50-9.30)

    I think the highest my LH has been pre TRT was about 5.01 and FSH 3.7 which was on 3/13/07 when my endo did a screen for cushings which I passed.
    ------------------------------

    July 3, 2007
    *Iron 30 (45-182)
    *HDL 36 (40-59)

    Bence Jones Protein, Quant:
    Protein total Random Urine 9 (5-25)
    Free Kappa 8.01 (1.35-24.19)
    Free Lamba 0.93 (0.24-6.66)

    Total TEst 827 (241-827)
    *Free Test 4.56 ( 0.95-4.30)
    *% Free Test 0.55 (0.32-0.51)
    Estradiol <10.00 (less than 52)

    T4 7.4 (4.5-10.9)
    T3 uptake 31.4 (2.5-37.0)
    T7 (FTI) 6.9 (3.7-13.0)
    TSH 3rd Generation 1.42 (0.35-5.50)
    CBC
    *WBC 11.6 (4.0-11.0)
    *Neutophils 78.5 (40.0-70.0)
    *Lymphocytes 14.5 (20.0-40.0)
    *Neutrophil Abs 9.1 (1.6-7.8)
    MPV 8.7 (8.0 13.0)
    RBC 5.38 (4.20-6.00)
    Hemoglobin 16.0 (12.6-16.4)
    Hematocrit 46.2 (38.0-52.0)
    Platelets 316 (150-450)
    Also ran blood and urine culture to rule bacteria problem both negative.
    Did ultra sound of liver and pancreas all good as well.

    After this test My endo refered me to a hematologist whom I saw this past monday and will have results on thursday.
    The hematologist mentioned that he used to use Testosterone to increase the WBC back in the days, and I mentioned that I thought it only effected the RBC, and he said it can to both not sure on this? I wish I had A CBC from before HRT.

    My endo mentioned about going further to find out about if this is something virul and mentioned doing an endoscopy, and also examining the bone marrow to see if it producing too much estrogen. The hematologist is saying he wouldn't do that just yet with the WB cells only slightly elevated.

    At the same time I am losing confidence in my endo for a few reasons.
    Not enough blood work, for ex. I will not be able to see him again until september, and he will go by my blood work from july 3. I just think that we aren't stable enough to be doing that.

    I had to tell him about testing my iron and to do a CBC, it gets frusrtating feeling like I have to know more if I don't i might get left behind.
    He never ruled out anmeia or tried to find the cause of my estrogen elevation.

    He has left me out in the world totally shut down very low LH and FSH, and low iron, and had left me with high estrogen before.

    My Iron hasn't really been adressed by anybody yet, the hematologist said he would run my work for the iron, but didn't seem so concerned because of my other blood counts.

    Not sure about much but I feel like I have crashed even test and estro levels look good I feel the same way i did before starting HRT which is like Sh!t.

    Not sure what these tests are but had them done on 3/27/07by my endo.
    Hemoglobin Electrophoresis:

    Hgb A1 96.5 (95.0-100.0)
    Hgb A2 3.5 (1.5-3.5)

    Thank you JanSz for your reply, and for the thread! Sorry for the long read.
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    I believe the post referred to topical Estrogen reducer's not topical T (e.g. Andogel)

    Your answer may still be the same, but just wanted to make sure topic was understood.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    I didn't know that. Here I have been preferring them over injections, as they more closely approximate the body's normal functioning...
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    Quote Originally Posted by wondering View Post
    I believe the post referred to topical Estrogen reducer's not topical T (e.g. Andogel)

    Your answer may still be the same, but just wanted to make sure topic was understood.

    I wouldn't second-guess or prognosticate. A little clarification is in order.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpeil2 View Post
    I wouldn't second-guess or prognosticate. A little clarification is in order.
    topical chysin is suppose to work, but I de damned if I want to wait around another 2 months to find out. When low dosages of armidex which is covered by inusrance would be cheaper and moreeasily controlled in the long run, plus with topical its hit or miss ..
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    topical chysin is suppose to work, but I de damned if I want to wait around another 2 months to find out. When low dosages of armidex which is covered by inusrance would be cheaper and moreeasily controlled in the long run, plus with topical its hit or miss ..

    All I was referring to is that Dr. C's post is confusing and that it needed clarification.

    Never having given it much thought, I don't have an opinion about whether a topical AI is better than A-dex. I do know, though, that I tried A-dex to lower estrone and it didn't work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpeil2 View Post
    All I was referring to is that Dr. C's post is confusing and that it needed clarification.

    Never having given it much thought, I don't have an opinion about whether a topical AI is better than A-dex. I do know, though, that I tried A-dex to lower estrone and it didn't work.
    DIM and iodine will help on there. More so if you have high estrone I be concerned with its metabolism instead.
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    You need a new Dr.

    Any Dr that starts a patient, especially a younger one, on injects first without trying a TD, is not a good one.

    Especially one without a plan for hcG implementation.
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    thankful indeed, and might i add.... i didnt want to even try TD.... would not stick with it....so injections are better for me... FWIW
    phats
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Well said!

    But let's be thankful for any doctor willing to prescribe TRT when warranted.
    Hmmmm.....I dunno Dr John, I would almost like to see a guy get turned away than get treated on a bad program.

    Getting turned away is no biggie, no real damage in the long run. Getting put on a bad program can have damaging effects in the long run.

    Dr John, it seems like transdermals are getting a bad rap. All the countless of hours of research Im undertaking has pointed me in every direction that they are far, far superior.

    I have a feeling alot are either giving up to soon on them. I also think many aren't properly cleaning application area and giving the alotted 2 hours or so to let dry before sweating.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Hmmmm.....I dunno Dr John, I would almost like to see a guy get turned away than get treated on a bad program.

    Getting turned away is no biggie, no real damage in the long run. Getting put on a bad program can have damaging effects in the long run.

    Dr John, it seems like transdermals are getting a bad rap. All the countless of hours of research Im undertaking has pointed me in every direction that they are far, far superior.

    I have a feeling alot are either giving up to soon on them. I also think many aren't properly cleaning application area and giving the alotted 2 hours or so to let dry before sweating.

    If you do not have thyroid problems they are the BOMB !!
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    If you do not have thyroid problems they are the BOMB !!
    They are superior to injects in almost every way.

    Couldn't one possibly fix his thyroid with meds and become more responsive to transdermals?

    One also has to remember that transdermals need to be applied in areas where androgen receptors are plentiful, like the upper body. They will not work on the legs, or at least not as good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    The TD passes into the skin, which is the reservoir for distribution to the rest of the body.
    Interesting.

    Dr John, what is you take with alot of these guys who switch over to shots from TD's......Some are pointing out that a less than optimal thyroid is to blame - What is your opinion on that and is it something that can be fixed?
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    Other than the fact that TD applications are the closest thing to the natural rhythm of test production, what else makes them better than injections?

    I've heard much more negative anecdotal feedback about TD's than I have about injections. Things like DHT conversion, estrogen conversion due to aromatase in the adipose tissue below the skin, inconvenience of applications, poor absorbtion in patients with thyroid disorders, and even that TD's have lowered guy's T levels somehow.

    Obviously injections are more invasive and require more, i guess you could say knowledge, from the patient since he must learn how to inject properly and safely. But for the most part guys on the right dose of weekly or every third day injections seem to be very happy with the results.

    I know if I start TRT, after establishing the correct dose of test from the initial run of Androgel, I'd like to switch to injections because it would be more convenient than applying a TD every day or maybe twice a day. Of course I want to ultimately end up with whichever method provides the best results, but all things equal, I think I would prefer injections.
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwestar View Post
    I had posted this on another board a while back:

    Lets see where to start, here's an interesting rollercoaster ride I have taken in the last few years just to give some background...

    Prednisone is a medication I have taken on and off since I was very young for asthma with minimal sides (atleast to my knowledge). Fast foward to 2002 I take prednisone if I recall I think it was about 30-40 mg. a little higher than I had taken in the past. To make a very long and horrific story short I had experienced the worst possible side you can get from pred. a prednisone induced psychosis.

    I was rushed to the ER and what happened next was crazy. For several days I was given haldol, were I experienced all the other sides possible from it. By the time the doctors realized I wasn't really crazy and they found no drugs in my urine and blood except prednisone I was so messed up I had parkinsons like symptoms. Skipping the details on my stay in the psyc ward, I ended up in the ICU for 3 days and was given bromocriptine to negate all the other symptoms I developed. I spent a total of 13 days in the hospital.

    January 2007 I was scheduled for a shoulder surgery on jan 31, 07. I decided before the surgery to get blood work. I was very curious about my test and estrogen levels. (I have had gyno since puberty, and had all the symptoms of low test) I go and with no surprise find my Test levels very low at 301, and total estrogen extremely high almost double at 244 (less than 130).

    Rescheduled my shoulder surgery (June 6, 2007) and see an endo. I get several tests which thank God all come back negative MRI of Brain, ultrasound of testies, even a momogram <pseudogynecomastia with trace amount of left sided gynecomastia>. After much blood work with the endo my estradiol actually gets under control naturally, but Test levels remain low. He said sometimes the estrogen can fluctuate due to viral issues to explain why it's in range now. But did find
    Cortisol (blood)27.6 (3.0-22.4)
    24 hour urine Cortisol 98.8 (4.0-50.0)

    I am 25 yrs old and started HRT in april, during testing my GH levels were also very low. So currently I am 200mg cyp per wk and 0.6 mg of gh daily. After the first injection I felt the difference almost instantly (it was on a friday) but by that next thursday I felt it die out and felt my nips oh boy!!! This is where I need to dicuss further with my endo next visit. We had talked about taking arimidex in the past, but he just didn't want to start that yet. I informed him on the tissue in my chest becoming much firmer and some sensitivity, but still no go on the anti-e. My BP was high and he was concerned about it being good for my surgery, and said the adex would elavate it further.

    Everything was good the test was 2 wks after statring therapy total test up to 772 except estradiol as I expected it was way above level again 76 (less than 52). SHBG 13 (7-44) ACTH 16. Cortisol in range. I feel like I know my body so well now, when my test is low when my Estro is high.

    I am not experiencing anything in my nips since that day, but lets just say that I have yet to have that same feeling since that first shot.

    After 1 month on I have noticed a slight shrinkage in the testies, slight water retention.

    -------------------------------------

    Up until the middle of june I had been feeling much better, yet still felt like there was something missing in my body.
    At about the last week of june I was hit with all the syptoms that I felt before starting HRT, and this is where I stand now.

    As I have been reading more here I am learning the importance of all the different estrogen tests and the picking the right ones. When I first started seeing my endo (feb 24 2007) (jan 25 total E was 244) he tested my estradiol level and it was 24 (less than 52) (also just learned this isn't the best test for males). I was surprised how my estrogen had gotten so low then he mentioned the viral reasoning. When I asked about the total estrogens and esterones ect. he said all that mattered was the E2, and I believed him. unfurtunately there hadn't been a CBC done until recently by my request.

    Here are some of my test from FEB 24 07:
    All testing done by Shiel Laboratories in NY.

    FEB 24:
    *Phosphorus 5.1 (2.5-4.8)
    *Globulin 2.2 (2.3-3.7)
    DHEA Serum RIA 841 (140-850)
    Androsendione Serum RIA 209 (30-263)
    *Growth Hormone <0.1 (less than 10)
    ACTH 30 (7-50)
    Testosterone, Total RIA 379 (241-824)
    % Free Test 1.41 (0.95-4.30)
    % Free Test (%) 0.37 (0.32-0.51)
    t4 Free 1.69 (0.89-1.76)
    Cortisol 27.6 (3.0-22.4)
    FSH 3.4 (1.4-18.1)
    LH 4.04 (1.50-9.30)
    Estradiol 24 (less than 52)
    Prolactin 11.9 (2.1-17.7)
    *24 hr.Urine Cortisol 98.8 (4.0-50.0)
    Quote Originally Posted by qwestar View Post
    Forgot to mention endo also had me do a catscan of adrenals in the begining, everything was ok.

    5/3/07:
    IGF-1 339 (116-358) (most likely increased from prior TRT)
    DHEA 552 (140-850)
    SHBG 13 (7-44) As per my request
    Testosterone Total 772 (241-827)
    Tesotosterone (different lab??) 728 (241-827)
    FREE TEST 2.96 (0.95-4.30)
    % Free Test 0.38 (0.32-0.51)
    Cortisol 15.7 (3.0-22.4)
    DHT 25 (25-75)
    *Estradiol 76 (less than 52)
    -----------------------------
    Started GH May 7, 2007

    Testing from June 14 2007

    Tested Iron and CBC as per my request.

    *Iron 39 (45-182)

    CBC
    *WBC 11.6 (4.0-11.0)
    RBC 5.47 (4.20-6.00)
    *Hemoglobin 16.6 (12.6-16.4)
    *Neutrophils % 80.4 (40.0-70.0)
    *Lymohocytes % 13.0 (20.0-40.0)
    *Neutrophils, ABS 9.3 (1.6-7.8)
    Lymphocytes Abs 1.5 (1.0-4.5)
    MPV 8.3 (8.0-13.0)

    *IGF-1 551 (116-358)
    Growth Hormone 2.9 (less than 10)
    DHEA Serum RIA 7.8 (1.8-12.5)
    Testosterone 437 (241-827) (Took Shot on sunday test was on thursday)
    *LH 0.30 (1.4-18.1)
    *FSH 0.07 (1.50-9.30)

    I think the highest my LH has been pre TRT was about 5.01 and FSH 3.7 which was on 3/13/07 when my endo did a screen for cushings which I passed.
    ------------------------------

    July 3, 2007
    *Iron 30 (45-182)
    *HDL 36 (40-59)

    Bence Jones Protein, Quant:
    Protein total Random Urine 9 (5-25)
    Free Kappa 8.01 (1.35-24.19)
    Free Lamba 0.93 (0.24-6.66)

    Total TEst 827 (241-827)
    *Free Test 4.56 ( 0.95-4.30)
    *% Free Test 0.55 (0.32-0.51)
    Estradiol <10.00 (less than 52)

    T4 7.4 (4.5-10.9)
    T3 uptake 31.4 (2.5-37.0)
    T7 (FTI) 6.9 (3.7-13.0)
    TSH 3rd Generation 1.42 (0.35-5.50)
    CBC
    *WBC 11.6 (4.0-11.0)
    *Neutophils 78.5 (40.0-70.0)
    *Lymphocytes 14.5 (20.0-40.0)
    *Neutrophil Abs 9.1 (1.6-7.8)
    MPV 8.7 (8.0 13.0)
    RBC 5.38 (4.20-6.00)
    Hemoglobin 16.0 (12.6-16.4)
    Hematocrit 46.2 (38.0-52.0)
    Platelets 316 (150-450)
    Also ran blood and urine culture to rule bacteria problem both negative.
    Did ultra sound of liver and pancreas all good as well.

    After this test My endo refered me to a hematologist whom I saw this past monday and will have results on thursday.
    The hematologist mentioned that he used to use Testosterone to increase the WBC back in the days, and I mentioned that I thought it only effected the RBC, and he said it can to both not sure on this? I wish I had A CBC from before HRT.

    My endo mentioned about going further to find out about if this is something virul and mentioned doing an endoscopy, and also examining the bone marrow to see if it producing too much estrogen. The hematologist is saying he wouldn't do that just yet with the WB cells only slightly elevated.

    At the same time I am losing confidence in my endo for a few reasons.
    Not enough blood work, for ex. I will not be able to see him again until september, and he will go by my blood work from july 3. I just think that we aren't stable enough to be doing that.

    I had to tell him about testing my iron and to do a CBC, it gets frusrtating feeling like I have to know more if I don't i might get left behind.
    He never ruled out anmeia or tried to find the cause of my estrogen elevation.

    He has left me out in the world totally shut down very low LH and FSH, and low iron, and had left me with high estrogen before.

    My Iron hasn't really been adressed by anybody yet, the hematologist said he would run my work for the iron, but didn't seem so concerned because of my other blood counts.

    Not sure about much but I feel like I have crashed even test and estro levels look good I feel the same way i did before starting HRT which is like Sh!t.

    Not sure what these tests are but had them done on 3/27/07by my endo.
    Hemoglobin Electrophoresis:

    Hgb A1 96.5 (95.0-100.0)
    Hgb A2 3.5 (1.5-3.5)

    Thank you JanSz for your reply, and for the thread! Sorry for the long read.
    One of your big problems is low SHBG=13
    That mean your current T dose is way to high.
    Additionally due to your low SHBG you have to be on frequent T injections, E2D, every other day.
    I do not see anything about HCG, you should use it.
    You can be with out HCG if you are not able to get script but your testicles will shrink, no big deal other than cosmetics.
    I do not see much on your thyroid, get FreeT3.

    When you do blood tests you have to be very consistent with timing otherwise it is difficult to use that test.
    Best is to do blood tests at Quest Diagnostics, blood drawn at Quest.
    Blood drawn on the day of the shot, time of the shot, before shot.
    Consider the whole list that I post for testing, if cant then at least the T, E and thyroid + adrenals part.
    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007
    --------------------------------------------------
    SHBG=13
    to get FreeT~250 you need
    TT~760
    to get there you need
    little less than 100mg/week of 200mg/mL testosterone.
    that is 0.5cc=50 units
    for E2D dose that is
    14 units on insuline syringe
    you need also
    250iu hcg

    Do both T&hcg shots the same day the other day free of shots. Use smallest needle available, 31ga, 3/10cc, 5/16" long needle, do SubQ shots.
    ============================== =========
    BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b
    BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $25.95

    Colostomy Supplies, Pet Diabetic Supplies
    Easy Touch U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16 inch Short Needle 100/Box Sale Price: $13.99
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Not sure that you realy want to spend money on GH.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CF10 View Post
    Other than the fact that TD applications are the closest thing to the natural rhythm of test production, what else makes them better than injections?

    I've heard much more negative anecdotal feedback about TD's than I have about injections. Things like DHT conversion, estrogen conversion due to aromatase in the adipose tissue below the skin, inconvenience of applications, poor absorbtion in patients with thyroid disorders, and even that TD's have lowered guy's T levels somehow.

    Obviously injections are more invasive and require more, i guess you could say knowledge, from the patient since he must learn how to inject properly and safely. But for the most part guys on the right dose of weekly or every third day injections seem to be very happy with the results.

    I know if I start TRT, after establishing the correct dose of test from the initial run of Androgel, I'd like to switch to injections because it would be more convenient than applying a TD every day or maybe twice a day. Of course I want to ultimately end up with whichever method provides the best results, but all things equal, I think I would prefer injections.
    Yep, the daily pulses of T much better, much safer, much more effectivein every way, shape and form.

    Added benefit of no poking holes into muscle. No risk of infections. No paying for needles.

    Many guys probably aren't sticking with TD for long enough - they take time to work. One must wait 4 weeks or so for retest and adding in hcG.

    E2 conversion is pointless. Maybe slightly higher. Maybe not. Easily treated with adex IF needed. Many are low on E2 anyways.

    Some DHT is needed. DHT increase is minimal anyways. DHT is getting bad rap. Its FT to DHT conversion within prostate that causes issues there, as well as FT - DHT conversion on scalp that causes hair loss. Any increases, and these are minimal with TD over injects, will hardly, if at all, won't affect increases in these processes.

    Remember, circulating DHT and FT - DHT conversion within skin/prostate glands aren't exactly coorelated. These are very complex conversions that involve alpha mechanisms/enzymes, and aren't necessarily going to be severally increased from a minimal increase in circulating DHT that *may* occur from TD use.

    One must also consider that a once a week inject of T would increase E/DHT more so than everyday TD use anyways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Yep, the daily pulses of T much better, much safer, much more effectivein every way, shape and form.

    Added benefit of no poking holes into muscle. No risk of infections. No paying for needles.

    Many guys probably aren't sticking with TD for long enough - they take time to work. One must wait 4 weeks or so for retest and adding in hcG.

    E2 conversion is pointless. Maybe slightly higher. Maybe not. Easily treated with adex IF needed. Many are low on E2 anyways.

    Some DHT is needed. DHT increase is minimal anyways. DHT is getting bad rap. Its FT to DHT conversion within prostate that causes issues there, as well as FT - DHT conversion on scalp that causes hair loss. Any increases, and these are minimal with TD over injects, will hardly, if at all, won't affect increases in these processes.

    Remember, circulating DHT and FT - DHT conversion within skin/prostate glands aren't exactly coorelated. These are very complex conversions that involve alpha mechanisms/enzymes, and aren't necessarily going to be severally increased from a minimal increase in circulating DHT that *may* occur from TD use.

    One must also consider that a once a week inject of T would increase E/DHT more so than everyday TD use anyways.
    While on 10 grams Androgel
    TotalT=1039(241-827)
    DHT=29 while on one pill/day Avodart

    TotalT=932(241-827)
    DHT=226 (30-85)

    Tcream 100mg/1gram, 1gram/day
    TotalT=456(250-1100)
    DHT=143

    ----------------
    I am now on Depo-T injections and no Avodart for long time.
    It is going to be interesting experience to look at my DHT in September.
    Looking for predictions.
    ---------------------
    If anything, I consider my quality of life greatly improved while on (tiny 31ga 5/16" needle SubQ E3D) shots. 10 minutes after the shot, no sorenes no after thoughts.
    I can shower with out preplanning, go to pool anytime, work and sweat with out thinking that I will wash out some of the stuff off me.
    Hug and kiss sweaty skin to skin, women and children no restrictions.
    No worry that my acting thyroid may change my absorption rates.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    While on 10 grams Androgel
    TotalT=1039(241-827)
    DHT=29 while on one pill/day Avodart

    TotalT=932(241-827)
    DHT=226 (30-85)

    Tcream 100mg/1gram, 1gram/day
    TotalT=456(250-1100)
    DHT=143

    ----------------
    I am now on Depo-T injections and no Avodart for long time.
    It is going to be interesting experience to look at my DHT in September.
    Looking for predictions.
    ---------------------
    If anything, I consider my quality of life greatly improved while on (tiny 31ga 5/16" needle SubQ E3D) shots. 10 minutes after the shot, no sorenes no after thoughts.
    I can shower with out preplanning, go to pool anytime, work and sweat with out thinking that I will wash out some of the stuff off me.
    Hug and kiss sweaty skin to skin, women and children no restrictions.
    No worry that my acting thyroid may change my absorption rates.
    Awesome. There are options for everyone.

    JansZ, I would like to add though, your new DHT results are going to be an invalid comparision.

    You are on Pregnenolone. Preg will lower DHT. One cannot compare.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Well done, Man.
    Props from the Good Dr, it gets no better than that
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    200mg/weekly

    is most likely too much
    is not frequent enough

    post your lattest known SHBG

    Letrozole is a killer, topicals are useless,

    try to minimize estrogen problems by proper dosing of testosteron
    use Arimidex if your E2 is actually high
    use other supplements for multitude of other estrogens

    do good blood test for all estrogens (and everything else) and then react accordingly.

    You have to be very systematic and organized otherwise you will chase your tail until you fall down.

    You may want to read this when you find some time.

    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007
    Topical anti-e's are not completely useless. Have you ever heard of Eform (Formestane)? It is amazing stuff let me tell you.
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    TDs suck IMHO.....not convinent........much more convinient to take IM injects....

    if one wants to mimic daily Test rythim a AQUAOUS TESTOSTERONE SUSPENSION for IM usage everyday with a 27g needle would be a much more convinient option in my opinion.....
  24. Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Awesome. There are options for everyone.

    JansZ, I would like to add though, your new DHT results are going to be an invalid comparision.

    You are on Pregnenolone. Preg will lower DHT. One cannot compare.
    If I had a choice, I think I like DHT on top of its range.
    DHT~75

    Or better yet,
    FreeDHT~6.2

    using this test from Quest:

    74 Dihydrotestosterone, Free, Serum (36168X) Dihydrotestosterone ng/dL (ADULT MALES: 25-75 )
    75 /------------------------------------ DIHYDROTESTOSTERONE, FREE (DHT, Free pg/mL ADULT MALES: 1.00-6.20 )
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    I think TD anti-E's hold much promise.

    I see your avatar from "the only perfect movie ever made" (quote from film critic Rex Reed).
    I like Formestane a lot because it doesnt totally destroy E and it provides a nice libido boost as well. I hope it will always be over the counter. If my Endo finally ends up putting me on test and doesnt want to do anything for E2 then I know that I always have my E-Form standing by just in case.
    Yeah, Clockwork is an awesome movie
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    EDIT BY DR CRISLER: Thank you, but sorry: can't promote this stuff here.
    Last edited by Dr. John; 08-06-2007 at 05:46 AM.
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