hcg and estradiol
- 08-01-2007, 10:28 AM
hcg and estradiol
hey guys im a 21 year old guy with no history at all of taking steriods or anything like that. Ive been really struggling the last four years with depression and brain fog fatigue type symptoms that come totally out of nowhere..ie there is no concevable reason for me to be depressed. Ive finally seen a good doctor though and he has me on HCG 250ius everyday which i think is alot but here are my numbers u tell me. My thyroid and adrenal labs both came back in the upper ranges and my tsh is under 2 so i dont think there is a problem there.
Testosterone total 523(250-1100)
Testosterone % free 1.73(1.10-2.80)
Testosterone free 90.5(35-155)
This doctor is actually an antiaging doc in the city who works with this stuff full time. He wants to see my free test up near 150.
The first few days of taking the hcg i felt pretty good and was starting to get morning erections again but then for the past week now things have really gone down hill and the fatigue and fog and erections have actually become much worse. I used to at least be able to get it up by myself but even that has become difficult now. I dont have much body fat and am somewhat lean though oout of shape. Is it possible my estradiol has really shot up from these shots.Morning boners are gone when they were starting to come around. Is that dose of hcg way too high. All is i need is for my numbers to just jump a little higher than where they are an i think i would feel pretty good. I know hcg can really kick up estrogen but i thought that was only in really high doses. The doctor thought i would really respond well because my balls are pretty normal size and those low lh/fsh make make me a pretty good candidate for secondary and hcg? Just tired of dealing with **** and want to get well and live a little. any advice would reallly be appreciated.
- 08-01-2007, 10:34 AM
I am on just HCG at the moment and I also felt better at first and the got sensitive nipple, bloating, brain fog, joint pain and fatigue...I don't know for sure and won't till after my bloodwork next week but I think it's E2.
- 08-01-2007, 10:39 AM
08-01-2007, 10:41 AM
08-01-2007, 10:44 AM
If your on HCG testing your LH and FSH are going to be low you can't tell if your seconday by your LH and FSH on HCG. If your base tests showed your LH and FSH low and your E2 less then 40 then you could be secondary. Doing 250 IU's of HCG everyday will drive up E2 big time. I am betting you could do less HCG and have the same levels. Your testis can only make so much T on HCG and it your dose is to high the rest will make E2 this is why you lost morning wood and can't get it up now. I would ask your Dr. about lowering your HCG to 200 IU's retest in 4 weeks if your levels did not go down low the HCG to 150 IU's some men do good at 100 IU's a day yet without Testosterone added they don't do well.
Or have your Dr. give you some armidex do .25 mgs every 3 days and see if wood comes back.
08-01-2007, 10:51 AM
I just caught something, sorry to hijack here also but my lh and fsh have been .7 to .8 even after starting hcg, so is that primary or secondary?
08-01-2007, 10:52 AM
08-01-2007, 10:52 AM
wow thanks for responding so fast. Pgamer, those numbers were before i started anything so im almost positive that im secondary. My balls are still pumping a fair bit of test out even though lh is so low which makes me think they are still pretty strong. Hardasnails, is your friend older or is he a young guy. I was under the impression hcg will really make e2 crazy in older guys but younger guys with secondary could handle what do you think?
rfish, my nipples arent that sensitive but i dont really have any meat or fat on my chest which could be why. I definitly have the brain fog constipation fatigue crap though which is awful. do your nipples have to be sensitive for e2 to be high??
I just got blood work yesterday so hopefully that will yield something. im curious whether my testosterone really jumped an how well my balls responded. Just want to never think about health stuff anymore, its driving me nuts. It sucks that a good diet and excercise is not enough. Errggh
08-01-2007, 10:56 AM
I never had problems till 3 months ago, my e2 was at 35 before starting hcg...the nipples sometimes can get so bad. I have heard a lot of guys get that on HCG however I expect it might take a while, how long have you been taking it?
08-01-2007, 10:59 AM
08-01-2007, 11:06 AM
HAN, exactly man..my wife does not understand what this feels likehaving test and feeling fine and then 3 months of just hcg for fertility is murder.
08-01-2007, 11:48 AM
08-01-2007, 11:54 AM
This fertility doc pulled me off the test, said even with hcg I would be sterile....I tired to argure but he is the doctor so I thought I would try it out. Now I am 3 months out and I have had enough suffering, I do bloodwork tomorrow as well as a semen count and will see him tuesday...it's a real stressor with my wife because she thinks I will be sacrificing fertility to be on test and from what I can tell it's just not how it works. If he can't help me it's time to move on to another doc.
08-01-2007, 12:05 PM
hcG standalone = Sterile?
That is crazy talk. Who is this Dr?
08-01-2007, 12:11 PM
Ha, brain fog..I meant even with hcg he said adding any test would make me sterile so he took me off the test cyp for 3 months while running hcg....I told him 6 weeks in I felt like crap and he basically told me again if we added test I would be sterile. I should probably switch doctors anyways.
08-01-2007, 12:18 PM
"A reduced libido and spermatogenesis due to steroids, in most cases, can be successfully cured by treatment with HCG."
"Human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) is sold under many brand names including Gonic, Pregnyl and Profasi. This hormone stimulates the gonads in both men and women. In men, hCG increases androgen production. In women, it increases the levels of progesterone. Human chorionic gonadotropin can help stimulate ovulation in women"
"Clomiphene (taken daily as a pill) prompts the pituitary gland to make luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone, which tell the testicles to produce testosterone and possibly more sperm. HCG (injected two to three times a week, sometimes with hMG) prompts the testes to produce testosterone and sperm directly. "
08-01-2007, 12:19 PM
08-01-2007, 12:23 PM
08-01-2007, 12:33 PM
08-01-2007, 12:34 PM
08-01-2007, 12:46 PM
This whole thread is eerily similar to my recent one asking about hcg and depression.
I am beginning to wonder if there is a stronger connection between hcg, depression and estrogen than I thought.
What we really need is better/faster blood work and people who know what to do with it.
08-01-2007, 12:58 PM
08-01-2007, 01:01 PM
08-01-2007, 01:04 PM
08-01-2007, 03:02 PM
08-01-2007, 03:19 PM
ok, that was explained simply enough so that I understand. Now lh and fsh were roughly the same after HCG and test by the way. Whatever that means.
08-01-2007, 07:20 PM
At 10 bucks a pill, thats 3,650 bucks a year JUST for AI control.
I don't get it
I am more along the lines of Shippens idea - If one isn't getting appropriate AI activity from low dose arimidex, some else or something stronger should be added.
08-02-2007, 09:11 AM
08-02-2007, 12:37 PM
HCG induces germ cell apoptosis in testis
"2mg per week is not a "whopping" dose. I have seen men on TRT require a mg per day. You can drive E low enough to be unhealthy with Arimidex--therefore it is not "self-limiting".
At this time, I do not favor the use of suicide inhibitors. Their endocrine pathway disruption is too harsh"
08-02-2007, 03:19 PM
hey sorry to swing the discussion around but i just got some lab tests back and my e2 was 57 (<52). this may not be the right test but ive had this one done before and the results aways came back below 32 so i know something is not right. Ive been doing the hcg at 250ius a day and i guess that it is just way to much. Im pissed that i dont have the testosterone numbers in yet but im wondering if they are through the roof too or if i just have some kind of estradiol problem which would suck.
I have some arimidex so was wondering what you guys think i should do. My doctor is great and i know he will think of something but just wanted a second opinion. Do you think i shoud lower my hcg shots and if so by how much would you say. I think this e2 is really messing with me because i feel just as bad if not worse than when i started. The thing is i know im secondary and im young to 21 so this should work great for me im just thinking i didnt maybe need as much as he told me to take. sorry i dont have those test numbers but just any thoughts would ease my mind a bit thanks guys
08-02-2007, 06:47 PM
08-02-2007, 06:50 PM
08-03-2007, 09:59 AM
08-03-2007, 12:01 PM
So i just got my numbers back and too remind people this is after 2 weeks of taking 250ius everyday.
testosterone total 812(250-1100)
free test 112(35-155)
So the hcg did alot but that estradiol is just way too high. I really need some advice here because my doc doesnt think that that number could create any symptoms but from what people say that is pretty outrageously high and i feel pretty bad now. I have arimidex and i took 1/2 yesterday and 1/2 today so now im wondering what people think i should do from here.
I know if that estradiol comes down the testosterone numbers could really shoot up right?? The only thing is i dont really want to be messing with arimidex much more than i have to. I would rather lower my dose of hcg i think and then maybe have to take tiny amounts of arimidex here and there to keep e2 in check.
What do you guys think? Could my test numbers jump if iget that e2 down and then should i lower the amount of hcg? any advice now would really be apreciated. Im really unsure of how to proceed.
08-03-2007, 12:11 PM
Could you elaborate on in what manner you feel "bad"?
- What were you on or doing before starting hcg?
- What were your levels before the hcg?
- What do mean by feeling "bad"? What symptoms & complaints do you have.
I am curious to see how high hgc raised you, but need as frame of reference. As for the "bad" things, I can relate. I've been on it for 2 1/2 wks and have noted bouts of nasty depression and near constant melancoly. Not good. I wonder it me experience is echoing yours.
08-03-2007, 12:15 PM
My numbers to start are all at the beggining of the thread. I wasnt doing anything before hcg accept feeling depressed with no libido. No drugs steriods. Not sure why it happened but it did. In turns of feeling bad now it is alot like it was before i started the hcg. Just brain fog fatigue with no libido. These things did get a bit better as soon as i started hcg but then went downhill again because i think the hcg just made me create to much e2. Not sure now whether to lower the dose of take arimidex but i know arimidex can be confusing and dealing with e2 in general can so i want to stay away from that.
08-03-2007, 01:24 PM
I am really not familiar with hcG as a solo for of hrt so i cannot comment on that particular area with as much expertise as I normally could, but the big research paper that was put out recently said that 250IU EOD was safe and restored baseline testical function.
You could cut back to EOD dosing. Bump a little adex at .25mg 2 times a week.
But your a young guy right? Why not opt for a TD cream and go with hcG 2 times a week to keep baseline functioning?
08-03-2007, 01:45 PM
thanks for the reply plymouth, you seem really knowledgeable with all this stuff. The reason my doc put me on the hcg only protocol was because i was young he said. im only 21. Do you think the other protocol would be better. would there be less aromatase in that situation. i know hcg can really kick up e2 and it looks like that is what is happening to me.
i think im real sensitive to e2 as well. i just feel terrible now with the number that high. Im going to ask the doc about doing TD's with hcg on monday. Until then should i keep doing the arimidex because i reallly hate feeling this way. If i took 1/2 yesterday and the same today and my number was 57 what do you think i should do with that over the next few days? sorry for all the questions but i just need to start feeling good.
08-03-2007, 03:33 PM
WTF in post 5 I told you this would happen and you did the wrong thing. Don't mess with Arimidex do like I told you in post 5 lower your dose of HCG then retest in 4 weeks if your T did not go down your still on to much HCG so lower some more and test again. Your testis are only going to make so much T and the rest of the HCG will make E2. Now you doing Arimidex how in the hell are you going to tell what dose is good for you now. You just set your self back. There are guys doing 60 IU's of HCG and have good levels of T with good E2. Yes this takes time so now what are you going to Do. You took 1/2 a mgs of Arimidex in 2 days now you are driving your E2 into the ground and putting your body in shock. Your body is going to go nuts trying to bring you in balance. Did you even run what I posted past your Dr.
08-03-2007, 04:17 PM
phil i cant really go to my doctor and tell him some guy on the internet said his protocol is wrong. I waited two weeks doing what he told me and tested and the estradiol is through the roof high. I know ive read how even swale has frontloaded guys with a high dose of arimidex and then gone to lower more maintanence doses. I am going to lower my hcg now that ive gotten the labs back but before i was in the dark so..
I dont want to have to use arimidex at all which is why im now lowering the dose so that the e2 will come down. Hopefully that arimidex lowered my e2 and if it did it a little two much the hcg will definitly bring it back pretty quick im sure. Im thinking now that if i dont start to feel better with the lower doses that im gonna have to go to the creams. I know this stuff takes time like u said but im 21 and just took this past year off from school and only now am i thinking im on the right path and i have to go back pretty soon so i need to start feeling good or im up ****s creek. You mentioned in your thread earlier that men who do take lower dose hcg generally dont feel good till they get some testosterone from the outside maybe thats where ill have to go next.
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