hcg and estradiol

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  1. hcg and estradiol


    hey guys im a 21 year old guy with no history at all of taking steriods or anything like that. Ive been really struggling the last four years with depression and brain fog fatigue type symptoms that come totally out of nowhere..ie there is no concevable reason for me to be depressed. Ive finally seen a good doctor though and he has me on HCG 250ius everyday which i think is alot but here are my numbers u tell me. My thyroid and adrenal labs both came back in the upper ranges and my tsh is under 2 so i dont think there is a problem there.

    Testosterone total 523(250-1100)
    Testosterone % free 1.73(1.10-2.80)
    Testosterone free 90.5(35-155)
    LH 1.6(1.5-9.3)
    fsh3.0(1.6-8.0)
    prolactin4.0(2.0-18.0)
    estradiol 24(7-50)

    This doctor is actually an antiaging doc in the city who works with this stuff full time. He wants to see my free test up near 150.
    The first few days of taking the hcg i felt pretty good and was starting to get morning erections again but then for the past week now things have really gone down hill and the fatigue and fog and erections have actually become much worse. I used to at least be able to get it up by myself but even that has become difficult now. I dont have much body fat and am somewhat lean though oout of shape. Is it possible my estradiol has really shot up from these shots.Morning boners are gone when they were starting to come around. Is that dose of hcg way too high. All is i need is for my numbers to just jump a little higher than where they are an i think i would feel pretty good. I know hcg can really kick up estrogen but i thought that was only in really high doses. The doctor thought i would really respond well because my balls are pretty normal size and those low lh/fsh make make me a pretty good candidate for secondary and hcg? Just tired of dealing with **** and want to get well and live a little. any advice would reallly be appreciated.


  2. I am on just HCG at the moment and I also felt better at first and the got sensitive nipple, bloating, brain fog, joint pain and fatigue...I don't know for sure and won't till after my bloodwork next week but I think it's E2.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by rfish1966 View Post
    I am on just HCG at the moment and I also felt better at first and the got sensitive nipple, bloating, brain fog, joint pain and fatigue...I don't know for sure and won't till after my bloodwork next week but I think it's E2.
    on hcg at 200 ius a day my freinds e2 went from 40-78!! and test only went up 200 points.. Got migraines,bloated, memory fog, constipation and herpes broke out like crazy !!

  4. I forgot about the headaches.

  5. If your on HCG testing your LH and FSH are going to be low you can't tell if your seconday by your LH and FSH on HCG. If your base tests showed your LH and FSH low and your E2 less then 40 then you could be secondary. Doing 250 IU's of HCG everyday will drive up E2 big time. I am betting you could do less HCG and have the same levels. Your testis can only make so much T on HCG and it your dose is to high the rest will make E2 this is why you lost morning wood and can't get it up now. I would ask your Dr. about lowering your HCG to 200 IU's retest in 4 weeks if your levels did not go down low the HCG to 150 IU's some men do good at 100 IU's a day yet without Testosterone added they don't do well.
    Or have your Dr. give you some armidex do .25 mgs every 3 days and see if wood comes back.
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  6. I just caught something, sorry to hijack here also but my lh and fsh have been .7 to .8 even after starting hcg, so is that primary or secondary?

  7. Quote Originally Posted by rfish1966 View Post
    I just caught something, sorry to hijack here also but my lh and fsh have been .7 to .8 even after starting hcg, so is that primary or secondary?
    When I was on hcg my fsh was high which did not make any sense to me ? LOL

  8. wow thanks for responding so fast. Pgamer, those numbers were before i started anything so im almost positive that im secondary. My balls are still pumping a fair bit of test out even though lh is so low which makes me think they are still pretty strong. Hardasnails, is your friend older or is he a young guy. I was under the impression hcg will really make e2 crazy in older guys but younger guys with secondary could handle what do you think?

    rfish, my nipples arent that sensitive but i dont really have any meat or fat on my chest which could be why. I definitly have the brain fog constipation fatigue crap though which is awful. do your nipples have to be sensitive for e2 to be high??

    I just got blood work yesterday so hopefully that will yield something. im curious whether my testosterone really jumped an how well my balls responded. Just want to never think about health stuff anymore, its driving me nuts. It sucks that a good diet and excercise is not enough. Errggh

  9. I never had problems till 3 months ago, my e2 was at 35 before starting hcg...the nipples sometimes can get so bad. I have heard a lot of guys get that on HCG however I expect it might take a while, how long have you been taking it?

  10. Quote Originally Posted by rfish1966 View Post
    I never had problems till 3 months ago, my e2 was at 35 before starting hcg...the nipples sometimes can get so bad. I have heard a lot of guys get that on HCG however I expect it might take a while, how long have you been taking it?
    Alot of antianging guys run hcg only hoping it can get test levels into the 700-900 range. I can understand that if they want to try everything to avoid out side testosterone stimulation is fine, but waiting around 10-12 months to find out if its going to work or not SCREW THAT..Give me a test shot and i know it will work ..We haev lifes to live going to work and families not sitting around wondering if we are every going to feel better or not.. Thats just my opinon.

  11. HAN, exactly man..my wife does not understand what this feels likehaving test and feeling fine and then 3 months of just hcg for fertility is murder.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by rfish1966 View Post
    HAN, exactly man..my wife does not understand what this feels likehaving test and feeling fine and then 3 months of just hcg for fertility is murder.
    Why are you cycling. You should be able to get her pregno while on HCG RIGHT ? I know agless at 61 or 62 had a kid and hes been on TRT for along time !!

  13. This fertility doc pulled me off the test, said even with hcg I would be sterile....I tired to argure but he is the doctor so I thought I would try it out. Now I am 3 months out and I have had enough suffering, I do bloodwork tomorrow as well as a semen count and will see him tuesday...it's a real stressor with my wife because she thinks I will be sacrificing fertility to be on test and from what I can tell it's just not how it works. If he can't help me it's time to move on to another doc.

  14. hcG standalone = Sterile?

    That is crazy talk. Who is this Dr?

  15. Ha, brain fog..I meant even with hcg he said adding any test would make me sterile so he took me off the test cyp for 3 months while running hcg....I told him 6 weeks in I felt like crap and he basically told me again if we added test I would be sterile. I should probably switch doctors anyways.

  16. "A reduced libido and spermatogenesis due to steroids, in most cases, can be successfully cured by treatment with HCG."

    http://www.geocities.com/hardcorebod...ofiles/hcg.htm

    "Human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) is sold under many brand names including Gonic, Pregnyl and Profasi. This hormone stimulates the gonads in both men and women. In men, hCG increases androgen production. In women, it increases the levels of progesterone. Human chorionic gonadotropin can help stimulate ovulation in women"

    http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz...lity_drugs.jsp

    "Clomiphene (taken daily as a pill) prompts the pituitary gland to make luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone, which tell the testicles to produce testosterone and possibly more sperm. HCG (injected two to three times a week, sometimes with hMG) prompts the testes to produce testosterone and sperm directly. "

    http://www.babycenter.com/refcap/4090.html

  17. Quote Originally Posted by rfish1966 View Post
    Ha, brain fog..I meant even with hcg he said adding any test would make me sterile so he took me off the test cyp for 3 months while running hcg....I told him 6 weeks in I felt like crap and he basically told me again if we added test I would be sterile. I should probably switch doctors anyways.
    How can you be sterile with e2 running rampant

  18. Beats me...

  19. Quote Originally Posted by rfish1966 View Post
    Beats me...
    You'd rather be beating the dr LOL

  20. As a matter o fact I would.
  21. This whole thread is eerily similar to my recent one asking about hcg and depression.


    I am beginning to wonder if there is a stronger connection between hcg, depression and estrogen than I thought.

    What we really need is better/faster blood work and people who know what to do with it.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by anyman View Post
    I am beginning to wonder if there is a stronger connection between hcg, depression and estrogen than I thought.

    What we really need is better/faster blood work and people who know what to do with it.
    If you are with shippen he is extremely good but will try to use hcg /clomid first before going to directly to the IM injections. if you hae time and patience thats GREAT, but like most people you have family and life, job so that is something to concider as well. My freinds e2 doubled and he was in uder chaos on 200 ius a day. Shippen NEVER goes higher then .20 mgs of armidex every 3 days and would probably add in chyrsin cream to help stabilize it. Plus all this compounded stuff is not covered by insurance so it can REALLY get expensive vs pharmacutical drugs..and with coumponded stuff its hit or miss specially herbs and then you have to deal with absorption problems if any..

  23. Quote Originally Posted by anyman View Post
    I am beginning to wonder if there is a stronger connection between hcg, depression and estrogen than I thought.

    What we really need is better/faster blood work and people who know what to do with it.
    If you are low on cholesterol and possible hypothyroid then HCG could possible drive choleserol even lower. Low cholestrol has been linked to depression. By taking pregnenolone cream this as dr J saids fills in the back space so your pathways are optimized. And people with depression have low pregenonlone sulfate as well as hypothyroid and adrenal fatigue people. So it does make sense ..

  24. Quote Originally Posted by rfish1966 View Post
    This fertility doc pulled me off the test, said even with hcg I would be sterile....I tired to argure but he is the doctor so I thought I would try it out. Now I am 3 months out and I have had enough suffering, I do bloodwork tomorrow as well as a semen count and will see him tuesday...it's a real stressor with my wife because she thinks I will be sacrificing fertility to be on test and from what I can tell it's just not how it works. If he can't help me it's time to move on to another doc.

    If I remember correctly, quite a few of Dr. C's TRT patients have fathered children. He might be the guy to talk to.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by rfish1966 View Post
    I just caught something, sorry to hijack here also but my lh and fsh have been .7 to .8 even after starting hcg, so is that primary or secondary?
    It's the HCG your brain sees the HCG just like it will see T and stops sending the LH and FSH to your testis to make testosterone because the HCG is making them make T so if your on T or HCG your can't go by LH and FSH because it will test low.

  26. ok, that was explained simply enough so that I understand. Now lh and fsh were roughly the same after HCG and test by the way. Whatever that means.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    Shippen NEVER goes higher then .20 mgs of armidex every 3 days and would probably add in chyrsin cream to help stabilize it. ..
    Thats funny because Dr John has some guys on 1mg per day.

    At 10 bucks a pill, thats 3,650 bucks a year JUST for AI control.

    I don't get it

    I am more along the lines of Shippens idea - If one isn't getting appropriate AI activity from low dose arimidex, some else or something stronger should be added.

  28. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    I don't know where you got that idea.
    May be 1 mg a WEEK in extreme cases..I think .35-75 would be average for people with high E2. I think it just takes time and patience to get it little my little and he knows from past experience how people are going to respond..I still like to know how these people in these studys who took 1 mg a day or .5 mgs a day did not crash really hard driving e2 into the ground ..IT JUST AMAZES ME !!

  29. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    I don't know where you got that idea.
    From this post HCG induces germ cell apoptosis in testis

    "2mg per week is not a "whopping" dose. I have seen men on TRT require a mg per day. You can drive E low enough to be unhealthy with Arimidex--therefore it is not "self-limiting".

    At this time, I do not favor the use of suicide inhibitors. Their endocrine pathway disruption is too harsh"

  30. hey sorry to swing the discussion around but i just got some lab tests back and my e2 was 57 (<52). this may not be the right test but ive had this one done before and the results aways came back below 32 so i know something is not right. Ive been doing the hcg at 250ius a day and i guess that it is just way to much. Im pissed that i dont have the testosterone numbers in yet but im wondering if they are through the roof too or if i just have some kind of estradiol problem which would suck.

    I have some arimidex so was wondering what you guys think i should do. My doctor is great and i know he will think of something but just wanted a second opinion. Do you think i shoud lower my hcg shots and if so by how much would you say. I think this e2 is really messing with me because i feel just as bad if not worse than when i started. The thing is i know im secondary and im young to 21 so this should work great for me im just thinking i didnt maybe need as much as he told me to take. sorry i dont have those test numbers but just any thoughts would ease my mind a bit thanks guys
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