Can HCG cause depresssion? Anyone have experience with this?

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    Can HCG cause depresssion? Anyone have experience with this?


    As some here may recall, Dr. Shippen started me on hcg about 1 1/2 weeks ago. So far, I've noticed no changes--except possibly for the introduction of depression of a kind I am wholly unfamiliar with.

    I've had problems with general irritation, fatigue and even "down" times since this whole low T thing started, but nothing like I've experienced over the past 1+ week. I could be wrong, but I could swear that depression has been stronger and unlike anything else I've experienced. Maybe it's just coincidence. Maybe not. I did some quick research and noted depression as a listed side effect.

    Based on the positive reviews of hcg I see here this took me as a complete surprise. If hcg doesn't work then my options are indeed limited. I'm going to stay on it till I speak with the Dr in a month (blood work is on 8/10), but I gotta say, I'm a bit perplexed.

    Any thoughts/comments? Thanks in advance

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    What dose are you on and how often?
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    Dosage: 500ic M,W fnd F


    Quote Originally Posted by ItsHectic View Post
    What dose are you on and how often?
    If I understood Dr S correctly, it's 500iu 3 times per week every M.W and F.

    Gotta say, I'm stumped and welcome suggestions....
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    Can't say I've ever heard of this. I know my HCG hasn't caused this for me.....thank goodness.
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    There is some information out there indicating such is possible (m)


    Quote Originally Posted by SoMdHunter View Post
    Can't say I've ever heard of this. I know my HCG hasn't caused this for me.....thank goodness.
    Take a look here:
    http://drugs.higsinc.com/novarel.htm

    Here is the relevant part:

    "Side Effects with HCG Novarel
    ....... Other side effects of HCG Novarel include: headache, irritability, restlessness, depression, fatigue, edema, precocious puberty, gynecomastia and pain at the site of injection.

    I found other sites as well.

    I REALLY hope that hcg is not the cause of my new found recent bouts of "black cloud" and nearly constant fatigue. I thought low T was bad--this is much worse.

    Still, it could be coincidental. I mentioned it to Dr. Shippen's assistant. I hope it isn't related. If hcg isn't possible for me then my options are indeed quite limited.... That would really stink.
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    U probly got high E2 thats causing it.
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    High E2 on HCG? Never thought of that one. Would TRT cause the same issues?


    Quote Originally Posted by ItsHectic View Post
    U probly got high E2 thats causing it.
    Now I am really stumped. Assuming what you say is true and hcg can cause heretofor "normal" E2 levels to spike, what can one do? Would regular TRT like T cyp cause the same thing?

    A real puzzlement here...... I thought TRT and the like was supposed to produce an improvement.
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    What ItsHectic mentioned is all I can think of.

    Some men are very sensitive to E2...particularly changes in E2 level.

    I ran HCG alone as TRT for awhile in 2005...about 300iu per day every day. I didn't get depressed on it, but about 5 weeks in, I got on a small dose of Selegiline. I did get anxious and depressed after the Selegiline was added in. The blood test I got while I was on the combo showed Total Test and Free Test in the middle of the range, DHT in the middle, and E2 at the top of the range.

    I do have to caution you to take this with a grain of salt because every man is different. Some men have a very narrow "operating range" with regards to E2...assuming that E2 is even the cause.

    Stay in touch with your doc. With all of his experience, he can probably give you very solid feedback and advice.

    Good luck.

    Sonny
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    Good points. I'll be raising them with Dr. Shippen


    Quote Originally Posted by T800 View Post
    Some men are very sensitive to E2...particularly changes in E2 level.

    I do have to caution you to take this with a grain of salt because every man is different. Some men have a very narrow "operating range" with regards to E2...assuming that E2 is even the cause.

    Stay in touch with your doc. With all of his experience, he can probably give you very solid feedback and advice.

    Good luck.

    Sonny

    Hey, if I can't trust Dr Shippen, then I can't trust anybody. The whole thing was and is unsettling. Never experienced such dark, "head imploding" sensations. I could do without them.
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    HCG is a potent gonadatropin...produced by pregnant women to spike hormone levels higher and higher to maintain pregnancy.

    in men this means testosterone....and also estrogen. HCG stimulates aromatase production, which converts testosterone to e2.

    i would say your recent moods are caused by this spike in e2.

    An anti-aromatase drug such as aromasin or arimidex will easily lower your e2 levels.
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    Ditto what Jomi said.

    E2 is awful when it rises fast..it can really make you fall to peices. HCG though usually has me feeling like a million bucks.
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    Very possible that E2 is an issue. If so, then why only negatives?


    Quote Originally Posted by jomi822 View Post
    HCG is a potent gonadatropin...produced by pregnant women to spike hormone levels higher and higher to maintain pregnancy.

    in men this means testosterone....and also estrogen. HCG stimulates aromatase production, which converts testosterone to e2.

    i would say your recent moods are caused by this spike in e2.

    An anti-aromatase drug such as aromasin or arimidex will easily lower your e2 levels.

    If E2 is an issue, why aren't I seeing any benefits from higher T (unless it's ALL converted to E2)? Still no AM erections, much fatigue and worse. I didn't think that boosting natural T could or would do this. All is want to do is start to get at least some enjoyment from life. Shouldn't be this hard (slight pun intended).
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomi822 View Post
    HCG is a potent gonadatropin...produced by pregnant women to spike hormone levels higher and higher to maintain pregnancy.

    in men this means testosterone....and also estrogen. HCG stimulates aromatase production, which converts testosterone to e2.

    i would say your recent moods are caused by this spike in e2.

    An anti-aromatase drug such as aromasin or arimidex will easily lower your e2 levels.
    Great post
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    Quote Originally Posted by anyman View Post
    If E2 is an issue, why aren't I seeing any benefits from higher T (unless it's ALL converted to E2)? Still no AM erections, much fatigue and worse. I didn't think that boosting natural T could or would do this. All is want to do is start to get at least some enjoyment from life. Shouldn't be this hard (slight pun intended).
    All the T in the world won't save you from E2.

    I remember Ksman saying he had all sorts of issues with a T level bordering on 4 digits because his E2 was high.
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    Are you saying it is possible for hcg to essentially create ONLY E2? What about TRT?


    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    All the T in the world won't save you from E2.

    I remember Ksman saying he had all sorts of issues with a T level bordering on 4 digits because his E2 was high.
    This is increasingly hard for me to grasp. If I take the recommended steps to make things better then I might end up worse?? WTF?? I admit to being stumped as to how stimulating the body to do it's thing can make the situation worse. If this is true and hcg is a factor I'd hate to see how bad things would/could get on ordinary TRT. Never had an E2 problem before, at least not that I am aware of. I see from the posts here that there may be a solution, but I'll hold off on doing anything until I hear back from Dr S.

    Thanks again to all. Look forward to hearing more.
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    No, no and no.

    What they are saying is that when you elevate T levels, some of that T gets aromatized into E2 (by the enzyme aromatase). This ALWAYS happens but in some people, like say..who have more aromatase in their system, more T is going to get converted to E2. All one has to do to correct this is to get a presciption for an Aromatase Inhibitor (AI) and you'll slow down that conversion thus lowering your E2 levels to a comfortable place. Your E2 will be low, your T will be where it needs to be and all will be well.


    There may not be a huge amount of E2..some people are just very sensitive to it. Like me. Makes BiO a sad boy. lol
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    regular trt would probably imrpove your situation.

    INjection of transdermal testosteron will not directly or indirectly stimulate aromatase or estrogen production. HCG is directly stimulating aromatase, and therefore directly stimulating estrogen.

    again, regular testosterone therapy will not do this, though there will be regular levels of natural estrogen conversion.
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    Makes sense now. Thanks for taking the time to help.(m)


    Quote Originally Posted by bioman View Post
    No, no and no.

    What they are saying is that when you elevate T levels, some of that T gets aromatized into E2 (by the enzyme aromatase). This ALWAYS happens but in some people, like say..who have more aromatase in their system, more T is going to get converted to E2. All one has to do to correct this is to get a presciption for an Aromatase Inhibitor (AI) and you'll slow down that conversion thus lowering your E2 levels to a comfortable place. Your E2 will be low, your T will be where it needs to be and all will be well.


    There may not be a huge amount of E2..some people are just very sensitive to it. Like me. Makes BiO a sad boy. lol
    I see where you are coming from and admit that my thinking has become clouded to say the least. I'm still angry at the universe for inflicting this on me, but at least thee is hope unlike in years past.

    I'll keep the gang here apprised of what happens and what Dr. Shippen says. Perhaps others will benefit from my history as I have from those before me.

    Thanks again-
    Glad to see others so willing to help. I repay it here when I can.
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    I started HCG about 1 month ago. I am taking 250 IU 2 days a week, plus my 100mg test. I feel like crap. I was feeling good on 115-120mg T a week, but have not feel well since starting the HCG
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJimCalhoun View Post
    I started HCG about 1 month ago. I am taking 250 IU 2 days a week, plus my 100mg test. I feel like crap. I was feeling good on 115-120mg T a week, but have not feel well since starting the HCG
    Try 250iu E2D, every other day.
    What is your last known SHBG
    and TT on your current T dose?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Try 250iu E2D, every other day.
    What is your last known SHBG
    and TT on your current T dose?
    I am hearing from more and more people who do not like the TRT + hcG protocol of 100mg one shot per week + hcg on 5/6.

    More frequent injects seems to make EVERYONE happy.

    Have yet to hear from ANYONE who has switched to more frequent injects complain much, or switch back.
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    There could be many factors at issue here. I wonder if we are having the same issue


    Quote Originally Posted by BigJimCalhoun View Post
    I started HCG about 1 month ago. I am taking 250 IU 2 days a week, plus my 100mg test. I feel like crap. I was feeling good on 115-120mg T a week, but have not feel well since starting the HCG
    First and foremost, are you under a doctor's care? What does he say? I'd be hesitant to unilaterally start changing dosages, etc without him knowing.

    This said, I am beginning to wonder if whatever is afflicting me is getting you as well. Is it possible that adding hcg to your T regimine has boosted your T and Estrogen to "bad" levels? You lowered your T from 115-120 to 100 per week, but added hcg. If your testes were still capable of producing T is it possible that you've got too much going on and have an estrogen imbalance?

    I did my injection just now, after lunch and am waiting to see if the 'black cloud of vision-narrowing depression" returns. If it does, I'll know something is going on. For the 2 weeks I've done them it was generally in the AM, so it'll be interesting to see where things go. I'll try the next one (due Friday) in the late evening to see what happens then. I've been on it for all of 2 weeks and feel, if anything, worse. No erections at all, generally "down" feeling and constantly fatigued. Helluva way to go through life, huh? I anxiously await word from Dr Shippen when the bloodwork is finally done. Too bad that's a full month away...

    This whole thing is a PITA, or HPTA to be exact. I just want to work normally, without all this nonsense.
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    If you are low on cholesterol and possible hypothyroid then HCG could possible drive choleserol even lower. Low cholestrol has been linked to depression. By taking pregnenolone cream this as dr J saids fills in the back space so your pathways are optimized. And people with depression have low pregenonlone sulfate as well as hypothyroid and adrenal fatigue people. So it does make sense ..Low cholesterol is also can affect serotonin with in platelets some how as well. Plus cholesrtol is needed for detoxifcation and cell membrane stability..
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    Thanks, Dr J- Follow up on your note that an appropriate dose must be used.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    "Depression" can come when HCG is stopped. IOW, from a "crash". Or, if too much is administered (AHEM!) and estrogen rises sharply. But in my hundreds and hundreds of patients on HCG, I have not seen appropriately dosed HCG cause depression.
    Well, that is good news, i.e that an appropriate dose does not cause depression. The key is obviously to find an "appropriate" dose. I've got 500iu 3x/week and am increasingly certain that the start of it and the now alarming bouts of near crippling depression are connected. Not sure what to do and would welcome input, as I have over a month till any follow up. Gonna be a looong month otherwise. Honestly, this shouldn't be so damned hard.

    Thanks, however, for your time and effort. Appreciated.
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    Thanks, Dr J. Is is possible for hcg to cause spikes in E2, etc? (more)


    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    I have not seen it.

    Remember, too, that the info out there is for both adult males and females. Children, too.
    The scope, severity and sudden onset of the "black cloud" is alarming me to no small extent. Not knowing what to do makes it worse.

    I am trying to make sense of it, thus far without success. As always, suggestions, hints or places to look are welcome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Just to poke a little good-natured fun at our pal KSMAN, doesn't this run counter to his "T/E ratio" beliefs?
    The ratio thing is definitely too broad of an issue to pinpoint something down.

    I didnt understand it until a few days ago when I was looking at charts with BW from teenage boys.

    These kids BW were a sight to behold. Ratio's, or any idea of them, were completely thrown out the window.

    They had TT levels in the 600's, 700's, 800's, and 900's.

    E2 levels were all in the mid teens, regardless of TT levels. Pretty cool to see.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anyman View Post
    Well, that is good news, i.e that an appropriate dose does not cause depression. The key is obviously to find an "appropriate" dose. I've got 500iu 3x/week and am increasingly certain that the start of it and the now alarming bouts of near crippling depression are connected. Not sure what to do and would welcome input, as I have over a month till any follow up. Gonna be a looong month otherwise. Honestly, this shouldn't be so damned hard.

    Thanks, however, for your time and effort. Appreciated.
    I do not remember you lattest blood tests, provide link.
    There was recent discussion on another thread, that basically ended with conclusion (in my mind):

    When SHBG is 20 and less and on emotional/depression rolercoaster, do very frequent;
    E2D subq shots, both T&hcg on same day.
    T dose to keep FreeT~250 (per dr Shippen's chart)
    HCG 250iu/shot
    -------
    I would add to that, keep
    FreeT3 on top range (Armour)
    FreeT4 almost on top (either nothing or add T4 after FreeT3 is in right place.
    -------
    And control your E2 and other estrogens if indicated by blood tests.
    -------
    Use 31ga needle for both shots, otherwise doing shots will get old quickly.
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    Thanks, JanSz- Here is a summary:


    I have not yet had blood work since starting hcg 2+ weeks ago, but here is a compilation of results from various tests over the months preceeding seeing Dr. Shippen:

    IGF-1 181 (86-220)
    SHBG 11 (8-46)

    Total/free T (test 1)

    Total T 205
    % Free T 5.7
    Free T 11.6 (5-21)

    Total/free T (test 2)

    Total T 185
    % free T 2 (1-2.7)
    Free T 37.3 (50-210)

    FSH 2 (1-15)
    LH 2 (2-12)
    DHT 10.28 (no range given)
    E2 9.1 (0-35 pg/ml)
    Prolactin 6 (2-18)

    Thyroid:

    TSH .98 (.40-5.5)
    T4 free 1.1 (.8-1.8)
    T3 free 297 (230-420)

    Cortisol (24 hr test)

    Cortisol: 44.6
    Cort Free (24hr) 66.9 (5-50) ** seems high **

    Cholesterol

    Cholstrl 160 (162-280)
    Trigylc 257 (55-327)
    HDL 23 (27-67)
    LDL 86 (87-186)

    Hope you (and others) can make some sense out of it. I suspect the thyroid is off a bit, but know nothing about this area.

    What do you see here and whar should I discuss w/ Dr S?

    Thanks-



    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I do not remember you lattest blood tests, provide link.
    There was recent discussion on another thread, that basically ended with conclusion (in my mind):

    When SHBG is 20 and less and on emotional/depression rolercoaster, do very frequent;
    E2D subq shots, both T&hcg on same day.
    T dose to keep FreeT~250 (per dr Shippen's chart)
    HCG 250iu/shot
    -------
    I would add to that, keep
    FreeT3 on top range (Armour)
    FreeT4 almost on top (either nothing or add T4 after FreeT3 is in right place.
    -------
    And control your E2 and other estrogens if indicated by blood tests.
    -------
    Use 31ga needle for both shots, otherwise doing shots will get old quickly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anyman View Post
    I have not yet had blood work since starting hcg 2+ weeks ago, but here is a compilation of results from various tests over the months preceeding seeing Dr. Shippen:

    IGF-1 181 (86-220)
    SHBG 11 (8-46)

    Total/free T (test 1)

    Total T 205
    % Free T 5.7
    Free T 11.6 (5-21)

    Total/free T (test 2)

    Total T 185
    % free T 2 (1-2.7)
    Free T 37.3 (50-210)

    FSH 2 (1-15)
    LH 2 (2-12)
    DHT 10.28 (no range given)
    E2 9.1 (0-35 pg/ml)
    Prolactin 6 (2-18)

    Thyroid:

    TSH .98 (.40-5.5)
    T4 free 1.1 (.8-1.8)
    T3 free 297 (230-420)


    Cortisol (24 hr test)

    Cortisol: 44.6
    Cort Free (24hr) 66.9 (5-50) ** seems high **

    Cholesterol

    Cholstrl 160 (162-280)
    Trigylc 257 (55-327)
    HDL 23 (27-67)
    LDL 86 (87-186)


    Hope you (and others) can make some sense out of it. I suspect the thyroid is off a bit, but know nothing about this area.

    What do you see here and whar should I discuss w/ Dr S?

    Thanks-
    Your cholesterol is low, try to raise it.
    Fish oils, eggs, steaks

    Your thyroid is low, get up to three grains of Armour, check pulse, slow down or stop (stop increases not the dose at the time). Recheck FreeT3 and FreeT4

    Your E2 is low, your DHT is low.
    You have to use transdermals (not injections)
    Your SHBG is low, I suggest
    one 5gram packet of Androgel/day

    Androgel may not absorb since you have thyroid problem.
    You may end up putting Androgel on your scrotum to raise DHT.

    I do not see DHEAs, pregnenolone, progesterone.
    You are probably low on most of them.
    Use compounded pregnenolone cream, 100mg/1gram, use 1gram/day

    Very low SHBG is a sign of other problems that have to be identified.
    Ask Dr Shippen for this type of help.
    Dr Shippen probably will hold you of from Androgel to give a chance for HCG to work.
    But you are still low on DHT.
    You are tough nut to crack.
    Wish you luck.
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    Given you are seeing Dr. Shippen, I would STRONGLY recommend you take advice from him and not from folks here. No offense to well-meaning participants, but you are not seeing a clueless physician, you are seeing a true specialist in the field

    Be patient, follow his counsel.


    ---
    Quote Originally Posted by anyman View Post
    I have not yet had blood work since starting hcg 2+ weeks ago, but here is a compilation of results from various tests over the months preceeding seeing Dr. Shippen:

    IGF-1 181 (86-220)
    SHBG 11 (8-46)

    Total/free T (test 1)

    Total T 205
    % Free T 5.7
    Free T 11.6 (5-21)

    Total/free T (test 2)

    Total T 185
    % free T 2 (1-2.7)
    Free T 37.3 (50-210)

    FSH 2 (1-15)
    LH 2 (2-12)
    DHT 10.28 (no range given)
    E2 9.1 (0-35 pg/ml)
    Prolactin 6 (2-18)

    Thyroid:

    TSH .98 (.40-5.5)
    T4 free 1.1 (.8-1.8)
    T3 free 297 (230-420)

    Cortisol (24 hr test)

    Cortisol: 44.6
    Cort Free (24hr) 66.9 (5-50) ** seems high **

    Cholesterol

    Cholstrl 160 (162-280)
    Trigylc 257 (55-327)
    HDL 23 (27-67)
    LDL 86 (87-186)

    Hope you (and others) can make some sense out of it. I suspect the thyroid is off a bit, but know nothing about this area.

    What do you see here and whar should I discuss w/ Dr S?

    Thanks-
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