Can HCG cause depresssion? Anyone have experience with this?
- 07-30-2007, 06:26 PM
Can HCG cause depresssion? Anyone have experience with this?
As some here may recall, Dr. Shippen started me on hcg about 1 1/2 weeks ago. So far, I've noticed no changes--except possibly for the introduction of depression of a kind I am wholly unfamiliar with.
I've had problems with general irritation, fatigue and even "down" times since this whole low T thing started, but nothing like I've experienced over the past 1+ week. I could be wrong, but I could swear that depression has been stronger and unlike anything else I've experienced. Maybe it's just coincidence. Maybe not. I did some quick research and noted depression as a listed side effect.
Based on the positive reviews of hcg I see here this took me as a complete surprise. If hcg doesn't work then my options are indeed limited. I'm going to stay on it till I speak with the Dr in a month (blood work is on 8/10), but I gotta say, I'm a bit perplexed.
Any thoughts/comments? Thanks in advance
- 07-30-2007, 06:38 PM
- 07-30-2007, 06:48 PM
There is some information out there indicating such is possible (m)
Here is the relevant part:
"Side Effects with HCG Novarel
....... Other side effects of HCG Novarel include: headache, irritability, restlessness, depression, fatigue, edema, precocious puberty, gynecomastia and pain at the site of injection.
I found other sites as well.
I REALLY hope that hcg is not the cause of my new found recent bouts of "black cloud" and nearly constant fatigue. I thought low T was bad--this is much worse.
Still, it could be coincidental. I mentioned it to Dr. Shippen's assistant. I hope it isn't related. If hcg isn't possible for me then my options are indeed quite limited.... That would really stink.
High E2 on HCG? Never thought of that one. Would TRT cause the same issues?
A real puzzlement here...... I thought TRT and the like was supposed to produce an improvement.
What ItsHectic mentioned is all I can think of.
Some men are very sensitive to E2...particularly changes in E2 level.
I ran HCG alone as TRT for awhile in 2005...about 300iu per day every day. I didn't get depressed on it, but about 5 weeks in, I got on a small dose of Selegiline. I did get anxious and depressed after the Selegiline was added in. The blood test I got while I was on the combo showed Total Test and Free Test in the middle of the range, DHT in the middle, and E2 at the top of the range.
I do have to caution you to take this with a grain of salt because every man is different. Some men have a very narrow "operating range" with regards to E2...assuming that E2 is even the cause.
Stay in touch with your doc. With all of his experience, he can probably give you very solid feedback and advice.
HCG is a potent gonadatropin...produced by pregnant women to spike hormone levels higher and higher to maintain pregnancy.
in men this means testosterone....and also estrogen. HCG stimulates aromatase production, which converts testosterone to e2.
i would say your recent moods are caused by this spike in e2.
An anti-aromatase drug such as aromasin or arimidex will easily lower your e2 levels.
Ditto what Jomi said.
E2 is awful when it rises fast..it can really make you fall to peices. HCG though usually has me feeling like a million bucks.
Very possible that E2 is an issue. If so, then why only negatives?
If E2 is an issue, why aren't I seeing any benefits from higher T (unless it's ALL converted to E2)? Still no AM erections, much fatigue and worse. I didn't think that boosting natural T could or would do this. All is want to do is start to get at least some enjoyment from life. Shouldn't be this hard (slight pun intended).
Are you saying it is possible for hcg to essentially create ONLY E2? What about TRT?
Thanks again to all. Look forward to hearing more.
No, no and no.
What they are saying is that when you elevate T levels, some of that T gets aromatized into E2 (by the enzyme aromatase). This ALWAYS happens but in some people, like say..who have more aromatase in their system, more T is going to get converted to E2. All one has to do to correct this is to get a presciption for an Aromatase Inhibitor (AI) and you'll slow down that conversion thus lowering your E2 levels to a comfortable place. Your E2 will be low, your T will be where it needs to be and all will be well.
There may not be a huge amount of E2..some people are just very sensitive to it. Like me. Makes BiO a sad boy. lol
regular trt would probably imrpove your situation.
INjection of transdermal testosteron will not directly or indirectly stimulate aromatase or estrogen production. HCG is directly stimulating aromatase, and therefore directly stimulating estrogen.
again, regular testosterone therapy will not do this, though there will be regular levels of natural estrogen conversion.
Makes sense now. Thanks for taking the time to help.(m)
I'll keep the gang here apprised of what happens and what Dr. Shippen says. Perhaps others will benefit from my history as I have from those before me.
Glad to see others so willing to help. I repay it here when I can.
I started HCG about 1 month ago. I am taking 250 IU 2 days a week, plus my 100mg test. I feel like crap. I was feeling good on 115-120mg T a week, but have not feel well since starting the HCG
There could be many factors at issue here. I wonder if we are having the same issue
This said, I am beginning to wonder if whatever is afflicting me is getting you as well. Is it possible that adding hcg to your T regimine has boosted your T and Estrogen to "bad" levels? You lowered your T from 115-120 to 100 per week, but added hcg. If your testes were still capable of producing T is it possible that you've got too much going on and have an estrogen imbalance?
I did my injection just now, after lunch and am waiting to see if the 'black cloud of vision-narrowing depression" returns. If it does, I'll know something is going on. For the 2 weeks I've done them it was generally in the AM, so it'll be interesting to see where things go. I'll try the next one (due Friday) in the late evening to see what happens then. I've been on it for all of 2 weeks and feel, if anything, worse. No erections at all, generally "down" feeling and constantly fatigued. Helluva way to go through life, huh? I anxiously await word from Dr Shippen when the bloodwork is finally done. Too bad that's a full month away...
This whole thing is a PITA, or HPTA to be exact. I just want to work normally, without all this nonsense.
If you are low on cholesterol and possible hypothyroid then HCG could possible drive choleserol even lower. Low cholestrol has been linked to depression. By taking pregnenolone cream this as dr J saids fills in the back space so your pathways are optimized. And people with depression have low pregenonlone sulfate as well as hypothyroid and adrenal fatigue people. So it does make sense ..Low cholesterol is also can affect serotonin with in platelets some how as well. Plus cholesrtol is needed for detoxifcation and cell membrane stability..
Thanks, Dr J- Follow up on your note that an appropriate dose must be used.
Thanks, however, for your time and effort. Appreciated.
Thanks, Dr J. Is is possible for hcg to cause spikes in E2, etc? (more)
I didnt understand it until a few days ago when I was looking at charts with BW from teenage boys.
These kids BW were a sight to behold. Ratio's, or any idea of them, were completely thrown out the window.
They had TT levels in the 600's, 700's, 800's, and 900's.
E2 levels were all in the mid teens, regardless of TT levels. Pretty cool to see.
There was recent discussion on another thread, that basically ended with conclusion (in my mind):
When SHBG is 20 and less and on emotional/depression rolercoaster, do very frequent;
E2D subq shots, both T&hcg on same day.
T dose to keep FreeT~250 (per dr Shippen's chart)
I would add to that, keep
FreeT3 on top range (Armour)
FreeT4 almost on top (either nothing or add T4 after FreeT3 is in right place.
And control your E2 and other estrogens if indicated by blood tests.
Use 31ga needle for both shots, otherwise doing shots will get old quickly.
Thanks, JanSz- Here is a summary:
I have not yet had blood work since starting hcg 2+ weeks ago, but here is a compilation of results from various tests over the months preceeding seeing Dr. Shippen:
IGF-1 181 (86-220)
SHBG 11 (8-46)
Total/free T (test 1)
Total T 205
% Free T 5.7
Free T 11.6 (5-21)
Total/free T (test 2)
Total T 185
% free T 2 (1-2.7)
Free T 37.3 (50-210)
FSH 2 (1-15)
LH 2 (2-12)
DHT 10.28 (no range given)
E2 9.1 (0-35 pg/ml)
Prolactin 6 (2-18)
TSH .98 (.40-5.5)
T4 free 1.1 (.8-1.8)
T3 free 297 (230-420)
Cortisol (24 hr test)
Cort Free (24hr) 66.9 (5-50) ** seems high **
Cholstrl 160 (162-280)
Trigylc 257 (55-327)
HDL 23 (27-67)
LDL 86 (87-186)
Hope you (and others) can make some sense out of it. I suspect the thyroid is off a bit, but know nothing about this area.
What do you see here and whar should I discuss w/ Dr S?
Fish oils, eggs, steaks
Your thyroid is low, get up to three grains of Armour, check pulse, slow down or stop (stop increases not the dose at the time). Recheck FreeT3 and FreeT4
Your E2 is low, your DHT is low.
You have to use transdermals (not injections)
Your SHBG is low, I suggest
one 5gram packet of Androgel/day
Androgel may not absorb since you have thyroid problem.
You may end up putting Androgel on your scrotum to raise DHT.
I do not see DHEAs, pregnenolone, progesterone.
You are probably low on most of them.
Use compounded pregnenolone cream, 100mg/1gram, use 1gram/day
Very low SHBG is a sign of other problems that have to be identified.
Ask Dr Shippen for this type of help.
Dr Shippen probably will hold you of from Androgel to give a chance for HCG to work.
But you are still low on DHT.
You are tough nut to crack.
Wish you luck.
Given you are seeing Dr. Shippen, I would STRONGLY recommend you take advice from him and not from folks here. No offense to well-meaning participants, but you are not seeing a clueless physician, you are seeing a true specialist in the field
Be patient, follow his counsel.
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