Confused e2 to e1 ?

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    Confused e2 to e1 ?


    I'm curious to why blood estrones could be higher then e2 if one was on armidex. I thought e2 goes into e1 so therefore e1 should be suppressed from the armidex, hower ever if one is taking hcg could this swing the ratio the other way? Would it be advisiable to get the estrone metabolism fixed before implimenting HCG possible due to the fact that it could over flood the estrogen metabolism if it has not been stabilized first. Information about DIm is intersting, thing is that we know that it affects androgen receptors in the prostate which is a good thing, but can it affect receptors any where else? One of my freinds mentioned about taking DIM to control e2 to Shippen and had mixed reviews about it. Again when one hand talks to the other information does get altered, but from what he understood that DIm works in the prostrate to cause androgen receptor down grades which is a good thing, but mentioned about new studies coming out saying it may affect other areas as well..other then just prostate. I just want to clarify the truth is all. Or could it before the fact people are taking it you do not need it and causing more damage to receptors. Now that could be a plausible reason..Time will tell..

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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    I'm curious to why blood estrones could be higher then e2 if one was on armidex. I thought e2 goes into e1 so therefore e1 should be suppressed from the armidex, hower ever if one is taking hcg could this swing the ratio the other way? Would it be advisiable to get the estrone metabolism fixed before implimenting HCG possible due to the fact that it could over flood the estrogen metabolism if it has not been stabilized first. Information about DIm is intersting, thing is that we know that it affects androgen receptors in the prostate which is a good thing, but can it affect receptors any where else? One of my freinds mentioned about taking DIM to control e2 to Shippen and had mixed reviews about it. Again when one hand talks to the other information does get altered, but from what he understood that DIm works in the prostrate to cause androgen receptor down grades which is a good thing, but mentioned about new studies coming out saying it may affect other areas as well..other then just prostate. I just want to clarify the truth is all. Or could it before the fact people are taking it you do not need it and causing more damage to receptors. Now that could be a plausible reason..Time will tell..
    Read up on theory but do the testing.

    Test any and all estrogen you can.

    Trust but verify.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Read up on theory but do the testing.

    Test any and all estrogen you can.

    Trust but verify.
    Getting 24 hour estrogen urine test done which also tests all estrogens and methyated metabolites identifying proper methylation in the liver (which mine plainly sucks !!) which rheins does not test for..but will in the future

    All dim stopped 4 weeks prior before test.
    •   
       

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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    I'm curious to why blood estrones could be higher then e2 if one was on armidex. I thought e2 goes into e1 so therefore e1 should be suppressed from the armidex, hower ever if one is taking hcg could this swing the ratio the other way? Would it be advisiable to get the estrone metabolism fixed before implimenting HCG possible due to the fact that it could over flood the estrogen metabolism if it has not been stabilized first. Information about DIm is intersting, thing is that we know that it affects androgen receptors in the prostate which is a good thing, but can it affect receptors any where else? One of my freinds mentioned about taking DIM to control e2 to Shippen and had mixed reviews about it. Again when one hand talks to the other information does get altered, but from what he understood that DIm works in the prostrate to cause androgen receptor down grades which is a good thing, but mentioned about new studies coming out saying it may affect other areas as well..other then just prostate. I just want to clarify the truth is all. Or could it before the fact people are taking it you do not need it and causing more damage to receptors. Now that could be a plausible reason..Time will tell..
    E2 does not go into E1.

    E2 is primarily from Testosterone but also E1.

    E1 comes from 4 - androstenedione.

    4 andro comes from 5 andro, which comes from DHEA and progesterone(17 hydroxy).

    I do not know of arimidex effect on other estrogens. I do know it lowers E2. But for the rest Im not sure.

    DIM seems to control E2 within the prostate. It may be specific to the region, as are alot of drugs are able to do(saw palmetto/5 alpha blockers/lycopean/nettle/etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    E2 does not go into E1.

    E2 is primarily from Testosterone but also E1.

    E1 comes from 4 - androstenedione.

    4 andro comes from 5 andro, which comes from DHEA and progesterone(17 hydroxy).

    I do not know of arimidex effect on other estrogens. I do know it lowers E2. But for the rest Im not sure.

    DIM seems to control E2 within the prostate. It may be specific to the region, as are alot of drugs are able to do(saw palmetto/5 alpha blockers/lycopean/nettle/etc.
    taking HCG increases progesterone which would explain the increased ratio of e1:e2
    Could put exta strain on already over loaded estrogen pathway causing alteration which could effect the prostrate gland,in the brain and other elevated estrogen symptoms..

    Now if these estrogen metabolites are not disposed of properly could they be reciruclated around in the liver possible bind to other e2 receptors sites resulting in increased Shbg since estrogens do raise them?
    Reasoing behind DIm is to use it if one is using hcg, dhea to keep the pathways flowing in the proper direction..
    If one is already undermethyltated then this pathway has probably been previous dysrupted
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    Plymouth,
    E1 and E2 can convert back and forth to each other, and are generally kept roughly in equilibrium by that mechanism. The conversion can go BOTH ways. That is the reason for the original question, because you would expect a corresponding decrease in E1 due to lowering E2 (even when E2 is not the primary source for E1 the ratio would usually be in balance). But, Arimidex blocks the conversion of estrone to estradiol, so I guess it is possible to cause the ratio to be out of balance, though I thought aromatase catalyzed the andro to E1 conversion also. Of course in men the main aromatase reaction we want blocked is Test to E2. Have to do some extra study.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPHMark View Post
    Plymouth,
    E1 and E2 can convert back and forth to each other, and are generally kept roughly in equilibrium by that mechanism. The conversion can go BOTH ways. That is the reason for the original question, because you would expect a corresponding decrease in E1 due to lowering E2 (even when E2 is not the primary source for E1 the ratio would usually be in balance). But, Arimidex blocks the conversion of estrone to estradiol, so I guess it is possible to cause the ratio to be out of balance, though I thought aromatase catalyzed the andro to E1 conversion also. Of course in men the main aromatase reaction we want blocked is Test to E2. Have to do some extra study.
    E1 and E2 for the most part are seperate of eachother. E2 comes primarily from T. Arimidex main ability is NOT to block E1 to E2, but to block T - E.

    It is very common to have elevated E2 but normal E1. And vice versa. Over active aromatase comes to mind. This is all seperate of E1.

    The main proof we all have is the action of plant based herbs like resveratrol and DIM. They do an exceptional job at blocking E1, yet E2 remains unnaffected. This has been proven time and time again. People on Dim and/or resveratrol always see a lowered E1 level, yet E2 remians unchanged. If E1 gets converted into E2 at any significant amount, we would see a lowered E2. But we never see that.

    This pretty much in itself disproves E1 going into E2 in noted amounts. That may occur in VERY small amounts, but nothing to be noted. If E1 did convert to E2 in any tangible amounts, most would never need arimidex, and would instead rely on a much safer(and healthier AI) like resveratrol or DIM. Yet pretty much most have resorted to arimidex to control E2.
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    "But, Arimidex blocks the conversion of estrone to estradiol, so I guess it is possible to cause the ratio to be out of balance"

    In the very small amount that E1 goes into E2, probably, but it is mostly irrelevant. Its the T into E2 were arimidex works its majic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    "But, Arimidex blocks the conversion of estrone to estradiol, so I guess it is possible to cause the ratio to be out of balance"

    In the very small amount that E1 goes into E2, probably, but it is mostly irrelevant. Its the T into E2 were arimidex works its majic.
    So if one is using preg creame, dhea, hcg we would be more concerned with E1 and there for DIM and reservatrol would be in need to control these pathways.

    Using testosterone we be more concerned with e2 which armidex or chrysin, or natural AI be..

    This brings up a good point even though breast cancer take AI daily. Conversion to estrone is totally over looked which could also pose just an important threat if not more to other areas of the body..Reason I bring this up is my moms dhea is off the charts and she is taking armidex, but with high dhea she be more prone to altered e1 pathways. Could altering e1 pathways to more benefical estrogens reduce patience with cancer having it spread to other areas of the body?
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    So if one is using preg creame, dhea, hcg we would be more concerned with E1 and there for DIM and reservatrol would be in need to control these pathways.

    Using testosterone we be more concerned with e2 which armidex or chrysin, or natural AI be..

    This brings up a good point even though breast cancer take AI daily. Conversion to estrone is totally over looked which could also pose just an important threat if not more to other areas of the body..Reason I bring this up is my moms dhea is off the charts and she is taking armidex, but with high dhea she be more prone to altered e1 pathways. Could altering e1 pathways to more benefical estrogens reduce patience with cancer having it spread to other areas of the body?
    Estrogen: estrone (E1), estradiol (E2), estriol (E3) and estetrol (4)

    Estetrol
    Estra-1,3,5(10)-triene-3,15 alpha,16 alpha,17 beta-tetrol. A metabolite of estradiol in man, with estrogenic properties.

    I just found this on internet, should I be concerned about this one??
    Medical Dictionary Online
    ============================== =================

    Your Mother is already taking Arimidex.
    Possibly have her do the urine test by RheinLabs

    if waranted by the 2/16 ratio
    possibly she could benefit from LEF supplements

    DualAction
    TMG
    calcium glutharate
    Resveratol

    she could also do the Quest estrogen tests, the lattest discussed, just use ranges as for females:


    60 Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X) Quest Diagnostics: Test Menu
    61 /------------------------------------ Estradiol, Free (Males (Adult): < or = 0.45 pg/mL )
    62 /------------------------------------ Estradiol (Males (Adult): < or = 29 pg/mL)
    63 Estrogens, Fractionated, LC/MS/MS (36742X) Quest Diagnostics: Test Menu
    64 /------------------------------------ 968-1**Estrone, LC/MS/MS
    65 /------------------------------------ 968-2**Estradiol, Ultrasensitive, LC/MS/MS
    66 /------------------------------------ 968-3**Estriol
    67 Estrogen, Total, Serum (439X)
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Estrogen: estrone (E1), estradiol (E2), estriol (E3) and estetrol (4)

    Estetrol
    Estra-1,3,5(10)-triene-3,15 alpha,16 alpha,17 beta-tetrol. A metabolite of estradiol in man, with estrogenic properties.

    I just found this on internet, should I be concerned about this one??
    Medical Dictionary Online
    ============================== =================

    Your Mother is already taking Arimidex.
    Possibly have her do the urine test by RheinLabs

    if waranted by the 2/16 ratio
    possibly she could benefit from LEF supplements

    DualAction
    TMG
    calcium glutharate
    Resveratol

    she could also do the Quest estrogen tests, the lattest discussed, just use ranges as for females:


    60 Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X) Quest Diagnostics: Test Menu
    61 /------------------------------------ Estradiol, Free (Males (Adult): < or = 0.45 pg/mL )
    62 /------------------------------------ Estradiol (Males (Adult): < or = 29 pg/mL)
    63 Estrogens, Fractionated, LC/MS/MS (36742X) Quest Diagnostics: Test Menu
    64 /------------------------------------ 968-1**Estrone, LC/MS/MS
    65 /------------------------------------ 968-2**Estradiol, Ultrasensitive, LC/MS/MS
    66 /------------------------------------ 968-3**Estriol
    67 Estrogen, Total, Serum (439X)

    Already got her on calcoum d, DIm, adding TMG might be next step. I am getting her urine testing through great smokies it measures the methyated metabolites as well, Having her do the iodinne loading test very soon as well too.. I be she is really really low !!
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    Already got her on calcoum d, DIm, adding TMG might be next step. I am getting her urine testing through great smokies it measures the methyated metabolites as well, Having her do the iodinne loading test very soon as well too.. I be she is really really low !!
    You do know that not all DIM's are equal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    You do know that not all DIM's are equal.
    shes taking indoplex Biorepsonse from VRP
    Why we are going to get her tested For validation
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    shes taking indoplex Biorepsonse from VRP
    Why we are going to get her tested For validation
    Probably this:
    http://www.bioresponse.com/?gclid=CM...FQV5Pgodm3PtLg

    This works for somebody who believe that DIM is an answer to most of 2/16 and E2 problems.

    When I treat my self I use
    DualAction from LEF
    it does have only small amount of DIM
    but instead have other ingredients.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Probably this:
    http://www.bioresponse.com/?gclid=CM...FQV5Pgodm3PtLg

    This works for somebody who believe that DIM is an answer to most of 2/16 and E2 problems.

    When I treat my self I use
    DualAction from LEF
    it does have only small amount of DIM
    but instead have other ingredients.
    I'm getting urine tested
    tueday for evasive estrogen testing ..
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    I knew you would back me up on this Dr. John. The E1 to E2 and back conversion happens readily and constantly in order to keep the ratio in balance normally. Dr. John answered what I could not remember about andro to E1 also being an aromatase conversion. Obviously our main concern on Testosterone therapy is the T to E2 conversion. When you read prescribing info on arimidex (keeping in mind it is targeted at women) their main contention is its ability block E1 to E2 in peripheral tissue (fat mainly), though clearly it also blocks the andro to E1 also.
    HAN- this is interesting because most researchers seem to think estrone has more proliferative effect on breast tissue than estradiol so it seems something targeted at E1 may also be warranted if the ratio is out of balance in a breast CA pt
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPHMark View Post
    .
    HAN- this is interesting because most researchers seem to think estrone has more proliferative effect on breast tissue than estradiol so it seems something targeted at E1 may also be warranted if the ratio is out of balance in a breast CA pt
    Yes this makes me wonder about my moms double higher then normal dhea levels that concern me. She having breast cancer and having high dhea levels makes me wonder if your pathways are all messed up causing alot of her mental fog, joint pains, and tiredness. I have a suspcion that she is severly iodine defieint because she has not responded to armour like she should have. I am going to ask dr to run estrogen metabolism test and I have iodine test here for her to see if cancer patience have lower then normal iodine saturation plus altered e1:e2:E3 ratios..If one is low in iodine then estrones are not converted to e3 which are the protectivee estrogens and there for these could cause breasts cancerPROSTATE enlargment may as well result from altered good:bad ratios
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    HAN- You might look into some of the research on estriol in breast CA pts as a preventative and/or therapy. I know it was and/or is done in Europe to some extent as a sort of partial agonist on estrogen receptors (think Evista). If her Dr. thought it would not be harmful, it certainly might help her brain fog, joint pain, etc. I am also certain that in some types of tumors there is simply no way it would be appropriate in a risk:benefit ratio.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPHMark View Post
    HAN- You might look into some of the research on estriol in breast CA pts as a preventative and/or therapy. I know it was and/or is done in Europe to some extent as a sort of partial agonist on estrogen receptors (think Evista). If her Dr. thought it would not be harmful, it certainly might help her brain fog, joint pain, etc. I am also certain that in some types of tumors there is simply no way it would be appropriate in a risk:benefit ratio.
    I concur if her e3 is down that could explain alot since it is the protective one and Estrone goes into e3 via metabolic pathways which DIM does help..My theory is find the bottleneck and correct it ..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    DIM hinders 16-OHE formation. 16-OHE is prohormone for Estriol.

    This is a BIG question when considering use of I-3-C/DIM, along with issues of possible androgen receptor antagonism (anyone seen anythng more about that?).

    But, as you have pointed out, iodine favors conversion of 16-OHE to E3. Hey, wait a minute! I wonder if low iodine--DEFINITELY linked to cancers--is what induces elevated 16-OHE (also linked to cancers), since it then does not flow downstream to protective Estriol???
    HELLO!!!
    Thats what I have been trying to say in round way !!
    helps favor estrone into estriol. I spotted this 2 consecuitive times on rhein urine test from people
    estrones be high and estriol would be low and This may be a red flag for iodine deficeincy..
    cache:Trksol7A9 - Google Search

    Excellent read about iodine..
    KUJ:http://www.hacres.com/diet/articles/...lnk&cd=4&gl=us
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    DIM hinders 16-OHE formation. 16-OHE is prohormone for Estriol.

    This is a BIG question when considering use of I-3-C/DIM, along with issues of possible androgen receptor antagonism (anyone seen anythng more about that?).

    But, as you have pointed out, iodine favors conversion of 16-OHE to E3. Hey, wait a minute! I wonder if low iodine--DEFINITELY linked to cancers--is what induces elevated 16-OHE (also linked to cancers), since it then does not flow downstream to protective Estriol???
    15th ANNUAL WORLD CONGRESS ON ANTI-AGING MEDICINE & REGENERATIVE BIOMEDICAL TECHNOLOGIES
    July 31- August 4, 2007

    15th ANNUAL WORLD CONGRESS ON ANTI-AGING MEDICINE & REGENERATIVE BIOMEDICAL TECHNOLOGIES

    4:00 PM

    Estrogen Metabolism
    Patrick Hanaway, MD
    ============================== ============================== ========================
    A4M :: Conference Library

    GS02m - Estrogen Metabolism: Modifying Risk in Clinical Practice
    $20.00 Speaker: Patrick Hanaway, MD
    April 9, 2006 5:00 pm - 5:40 pm

    There is a 7 articles available, cost mostly $20 ea

    Any idea which ones may be on 2/16 , E3 topic, if any ??
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    http://www.prolibraries.com/a4m/?sel...=&speakerID=28

    You can listen to Dr Shippen or Dr Crisler

    not much information in a preview part
    but you can hear the voice of THE men.

    Preview part of his speaches is available free.
    ============================== ==============
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    Dr. Hanaway spoke at a conference I atttended, and let me say, the dude can go DEEP into estrogen metabolism and genetic polymorphisms leading to cancer. I am virtually certain I remember him making that low iodine to increased 16OHE connection. So Dr. John, does it make sense to use DIM/I3C to block some 16OHE conversion and supply exogenous Estriol for a protective effect (in addition to the previously mentioned arimidex)?
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    Estrogen Metabolism
    Patrick Hanaway, MD
    ============================== ============================== ========================
    A4M :: Conference Library

    GS02m - Estrogen Metabolism: Modifying Risk in Clinical Practice
    $20.00 Speaker: Patrick Hanaway, MD
    April 9, 2006 5:00 pm - 5:40 pm

    ============================== =======

    My take home (due to many discussions):
    Brassica, I3C and DIM are important, in this order, I3C should not be missed.
    I am staying with DualAction.

    rosemary, turmeric, kudzu (Dr Delgado supplement contains kudzu)
    ============================== ========
    RPHMark
    please refresh your memory, you are probably well qualified to provide executive summary of:

    testing, what to test, how blood urine, how read report
    corrective actions, list of supplemets, doses, details
    ______________________________ ______________



    DIM hinders 16-OHE formation. 16-OHE is prohormone for Estriol.

    This is a BIG question when considering use of I-3-C/DIM, along with issues of possible androgen receptor antagonism (anyone seen anythng more about that?).

    But, as you have pointed out,

    iodine favors conversion of 16-OHE to E3.

    Hey, wait a minute! I wonder if low iodine--DEFINITELY linked to cancers--is what induces elevated 16-OHE (also linked to cancers), since it then does not flow downstream to protective Estriol???
    ============================== ============================== =========
    ============================== ============================== =========
    Dr. Hanaway spoke at a conference I atttended, and let me say, the dude can go DEEP into estrogen metabolism and genetic polymorphisms leading to cancer. I am virtually certain I remember him making that low iodine to increased 16OHE connection. So Dr. John, does it make sense to use DIM/I3C to block some 16OHE conversion and supply exogenous Estriol for a protective effect (in addition to the previously mentioned arimidex)?
    ============================== ============================== ============

    2/16 Estrogen Metabolism:
    Modifying Risk
    in Clinical Practice
    Patrick Hanaway, MD
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    page 10
    Estrone(E1) -->2-hydroxyestrone (protective page12)
    promote-Indole 3C, excercise, flax, ligams, soy, EPA
    inhibit-Pesticide, ETOH (what is that)
    ---
    Estrone(E1) ---> 16-alpha-Hydroxyestrone (carcinogenic page 12)
    inhibit-obesity, hypothyroidism, pesticide, cimetidine (Taganent)

    Estrone---> 4-OHE1

    4-OHE1---- can be neutralized (good) or convert to Quinones (carcinogenic)
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Modification of 2:16 OHE1 Ratio
    16 OH-estrone (confers risk)
    increased by:
    • pesticides
    • obesity
    • cimetidine
    • hypothyroidism
    Generally, it is the
    2OH-Estrone
    that is more modifiable
    ----------------------------

    Modification of 2:16 OHE1 Ratio
    2 OH-estrone (protective)
    increased by:
    • flaxseed
    • omega-3 fatty acids
    • soy isoflavones
    • indole 3-carbinol (I3C)
    • diindolylmethane (DIM)
    • rosemary, turmeric, kudzu (Dr Delgado supplement contains kudzu)
    • strenuous exercise
    • weight loss
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Testing Considerations
    • Measure in serum or urine; and stay
    with same specimen type for followup
    monitoring of risk!
    • For women on Hormone Therapy
    collect specimen 8-10 hrs after last
    dose
    • 2-OHE1 clears more rapidly in urine
    than the 16α-OHE1
    • First morning urine for greater
    concentration
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    page 50
    The apparent induction of CYP1A1 was mirrored by a
    66% increase in the urinary 2-hydroxyestrone/ 16α-
    hydroxyestrone ratio in response to I3C. The maximal
    increase was observed with the 400 mg daily dose of I3C,
    with no further increase found at 800 mg daily.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    page 49
    Cytochrome P-450
    1A1 & 1B1
    Intervention:
    • Red wine extract (resveratrol)
    • DHEA: Inhibits induced expression of
    CYP1B1 (in vitro study)
    • Increase 2-hydroxylation of estrogen
    • I3C and DIM inhibit CYP1B1
    • Antioxidants
    • Minimize exposure to xenoestrogens
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    page 58
    COMT– Intervention
    • Limit alcohol intake
    • Support methionine metabolism (+/+
    women with breast CA have higher Hcy)
    with SAMe supplementation; B-Vitamins
    • Anti-oxidants (reduce quinones)
    • Avoid excess weight, stress
    • Avoid oral HRT (E2 levels higher in
    supplemented women with SNP; which
    is associated with increased breast
    density on ERT)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    page 60
    GST – Intervention
    • Glutathione precursors and cofactors (NAC, Lglutamine,
    glycine, Mg, methionine or SAMe)
    • Minimize GSH depletion (e.g., alpha lipoic acid,
    silymarin, ginkgo biloba, whey protein)
    • Anti-oxidants
    • Brassica based diets (stimulates GSTs and
    provides chemoprotective isothiocyanates to
    GSTM1-nulls)
    • Allium diet increases GST activity, even in
    GSTM1-null individuals
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In Summary. . .
    Support Healthy metabolic pathways:
    • Increase Production of 2-OH Estrone (E1)
    • CYP450 1A1
    • Decrease Production of 4- and 16-OH E1
    • CYP450 1B1
    • Increase Production of 2-Me Estrone (E1)
    • COMT
    • Decrease Production of 4- Quinones
    • GST
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In Summary. . .
    Women using Hormone Therapy should
    be offered Genomic testing:
    CYP450 1A1
    CYP450 1B
    COMT
    GST
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    • Estrone Sulfate (E1S)
    • Estrone (E1)
    • Estradiol (E2)
    • Estriol (E3)
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    This is an EXCELLENT thread. Should be "stickied." Also, if you don't take care of your prostate, you may become prostrate. (Sorry, I haven't had my coffee yet this morning.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacDonnell View Post
    This is an EXCELLENT thread. Should be "stickied." Also, if you don't take care of your prostate, you may become prostrate. (Sorry, I haven't had my coffee yet this morning.)
    Thats it JIM RUBB IT IN ALITTLE MORE !!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    I'll be in Chicago in a few days for that conference. I am in negotiations to Co-Host the December Vegas conference.
    We need to get Dr. J on Oprah
    GEt this thing about iodine and cancer link out it will start a new revolution.
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    JanSz,
    My notes from Dr. Hanaway mirror much of your post, but I am going back to review them again, and see if I missed something that is relevent here. I wish more people (drs and patients) were willing to pay attention to these types of "details". Side note- Premarin is metabolized primarily into 4OHE and other quinones, topic for another discussion.

    Dr. John- I buried a question in my other post, curious about your opinion. If we use DIM/I3C to alter E1 metablism and arimidex to alter E2 should we provide exogenous estriol for its protective effects? This seems like a best of all worlds scenerio, what am I missing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    Thats it JIM RUBB IT IN ALITTLE MORE !!

    Hey - I'm just jealous that I don't know as much about this stuff as you do Shawn! Dr. John - Good luck w/ Vegas. Just remember - Whatever happens there, stays there! ;-)
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    Summary for daily use/guidance:
    do not copy this post in references, the post is under construction

    I was just trying to get a chart.
    Forgetting that hi is pushing DIM alone, just looking at the chart, or better replace DIM with (Brassica+I3C+DIM):
    FAQs about Diindolylmethane

    Estradiol (E2) if too high can be controlled with Arimidex
    To get desirable E2 level:
    Use Quest blood test and aim for E2 and FreeE2 at top range
    Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
    Estradiol, Free (Males (Adult): < or = 0.45 pg/mL ) ie. 0.44 is best
    Estradiol (Males (Adult): < or = 29 pg/mL) ie. 28 is best
    Quest Diagnostics: Test Menu

    ------------------------------------------------------------
    To get desirable E1 & E2
    Use Quest blood test and aim for top range
    Estrogens, Fractionated, LC/MS/MS (36742X)
    968-1**Estrone, LC/MS/MS (note it is high quality test)
    968-3**Estriol (note old fashion, possibly unreliable)
    Quest Diagnostics: Test Menu

    Please help with a list of applicable supplements
    I start with
    Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract With Resveratrol & Cat's Claw
    It contains the best goodies, but I gauge dose by desired minimum of I3C=400mg
    So I need 5pills daily, then retest in 2 months.
    TMG
    Resveratol
    .
    .
    to be continued/edited/updated here

    .
    .
    Urine test at RheinLab
    desirable (2/16)>2
    • Ratio as marker of breast cancer survival (ratio > 2.0
    >10 yr survivial; ratio < 2.0 mean survival < 5 yrs
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    • Estrone Sulfate (E1S)
    • Estrone (E1)
    • Estradiol (E2)
    • Estriol (E3)
    --------------------------------------------------------------
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    Could also support estrogen metabolism
    methylation- SAMe, Bvits and Folic Acid (especially methyl forms)

    Glucuronidation- NAC, SAMe, antioxidants
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPHMark View Post
    Could also support estrogen metabolism
    methylation- SAMe, Bvits and Folic Acid (especially methyl forms)

    Glucuronidation- NAC, SAMe, antioxidants
    On them !! Like i said I got all basis covered..ITs e2 imbalance is killing me low e2 = hypomethyation as well as possible elevated 16 and 4 hydroxyestrone ...

    Could the pregenonlone creame be lowering e2 as well since it is progesterone or is the preg and dhea causing too much bottle necking in estrogen metabolism.
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    The preg/dhea angle is interesting. Could they feed the E1 side while arimidex is blocking E2 conversion? Seems like that is at least possible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPHMark View Post
    The preg/dhea angle is interesting. Could they feed the E1 side while arimidex is blocking E2 conversion? Seems like that is at least possible.
    Does dex only block it from only from the testosterone side and not any else ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    I just read through the Arimidex PI and could not find that.
    so in breast cancer armidex only blocks conversion to e2, but literature I have found that estrone can cause just enough havoc on the same receptor sites with in the breast tissue. My moms dhea was off the charts making me think that the AI is doing its job on the e2 but the estrone metabolism is probably running rampant as well as the 16 and 4 hyrdroxy-estrones most likelyl. Going to see if i can get her to do a rheine hormone profile and see if compunded estriol would help reduce the symptoms of joint pains and other estrogen defeincy symtpoms as well as identifying iodine defieincy and link all of this stuff together and come up with some kind of protocol for her to enjoy rest of her life with out pain..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    You are making some generalizations here which are not supported by my clinical experience. Or medical text.
    TRue I was on DIM, TMG, calcium D, reservatrol and AI and e1 was elevated and e2 was in the ground. blood test to back that one up

    Some one with a COMT defeiincy? How is that corrected ? by sam-e
    Will AN AI will stop conversion from estrone back to e2 ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    TRue I was on DIM, TMG, calcium D, reservatrol and AI and e1 was elevated and e2 was in the ground. blood test to back that one up

    Some one with a COMT defeiincy? How is that corrected ? by sam-e
    Will AN AI will stop conversion from estrone back to e2 ?
    This could have been from lack of T. Androgens are the major contributor of E2, and then TO A LESSOR DEGREE E1

    You can block E1 all day and that won't keep E2 at bay. This has been proven time and time again. Im not saying NO E1 goes into E2But E2 is primarily an act of androgen aromatase. And guess where the E1 is coming from anyways? 4 - Andro. Blaming E1 for elevated E2 just doesn't make sense.

    If blocking E1 stopped E2, we wouldn't need arimidex. Plant based AI's all have a terrific ability to act on E1 - Yet most fail to live up to the hype for E2. This is because they don't block androgenic hormones from converting to E2 strong enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    I know of no way to "block E2".

    I have to say that you have gotten off into some ideas which really don't follow.
    Via 17b-HSD enzyme

    Estrone is less potent, but all this means is that one needs more of it to accomplish the same job.

    Thats a good thing, given use of an AI lowers all estrogens
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    I have to say that you have gotten off into some ideas which really don't follow.
    Dang it Dr John, I gotta run.

    But I promise tomorrow we shall have an all out Geek Fest on E1 and E2 actions.
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JanSz
    Probably this:
    http://www.bioresponse.com/?gclid=CM...FQV5Pgodm3PtLg

    This works for somebody who believe that DIM is an answer to most of 2/16 and E2 problems.

    When I treat my self I use
    DualAction from LEF
    it does have only small amount of DIM
    but instead have other ingredients.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Be aware that many of the claims made by Dr. Zeligs do not stand up to rigorous evaluation, IMPO.
    That statement should be repeated many times.

    Right on this board we have a people that use Indolplex (pure DIM) exclusively because they believe in dr Zelig's claims.
  

  
 

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