Lab Results In, Need Help
- 05-13-2008, 12:33 PM
- 05-13-2008, 01:07 PM
i suspect HCG is the wrong drug for you. HCG acts like LH, which of course might help you short term, but YOUR problem is at the HPTA, NOT the testes (as evidenced by the LH=nil and T=okay). HCG will actually shut down your HPTA further, because the surge in test will provide even more suppressive feedback to the hypothalamus.
the ONLY really out-of-whack numbers you have are LH&FSH (terrible) and cortisol & prolactin & progesterone (way way too high, even if they are considered "in range")...considering that the feedback loops that drive their release are so intertwined, i have to conclude (barring any other insights or bloodwork) that the two are related.
ever hear of guys getting deca **** or tren dick? well, it's because of the really high suppressive capacity of these progestinic compounds.....you've got deca **** without the deca. we need to find out and fix whatever is jacking up your progesterone and prolactin and the LH/FSH will take care of themselves. look up 'hyperprolactinemia' for causes and start thinking - word is prescription drugs are often the culprit.
i have heard of guys using MJ getting elevated estrogen / low T panels; never Pr, but i wouldnt be surprised.
05-13-2008, 02:20 PM
Hyperprolactinaemia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hyperprolactinaemia may be caused by either disinhibition (e.g., compression of the pituitary stalk or reduced dopamine levels)
or excess production from a prolactinoma (a pituitary gland adenoma tumour).
A blood serum prolactin level of 1000–5000 mIU/L could be from either mechanism,
but >5000 mIU/L is likely due to the activity of an adenoma with macroadenomas
(large tumours over 10 mm diameter) whose levels of prolactin are up to 100,000 mIU/L.
Frequent Misdiagnosis and Mismanagement of Hyperprolactinemic Patients before the Introduction of Macroprolactin Screening: Application of a New Strict Laboratory Definition of Macroprolactinemia -- Suliman et al. 49 (9): 1504 -- Clinical Chemistry
(To convert prolactin mIU/L to µg/L, we divide by 36.)
1000–5000 mIU/L --> (28 - 139) µg/L
Prolactin 19.9 ng/ml (2.1 - 17.7)
I would assume that health4life24's prolactin is acceptable and look some place else.
Unless he admits to use of some prescription and/or street use of drugs.
Since he did not used steroids his HPTA is not shut down so there is no reason in going ino HPTA restart route.
Just guessing, please keep comming with ideas.
Well what is left from your previus post is a possibility of dopamine porblems.
I like to check this on a wholesale basis.
I like Genova Diagnostics NutrEval test.
Definitely it would quickly bring to lite many possibilities plus suggestions of how to deal with a problem if any.
Will give a list of supplements and a daily dosing.
05-13-2008, 04:59 PM
how in the world can you "assume" his prolactin is acceptable, when it's clearly out of range? just because a clinical diagnosis of hyperprolactinemia doesnt apply, doesnt mean that a similar scenario isnt present here. he's out of range of prolactin, progesterone and cortisol, three hormones that are strongly related and two of which are KNOWN to seriously suppress LH/FSH, which he has very little of. in my eyes it's all rather obvious.
what about stims? i believe they've been shown to increase prolactin and cortisol (need refs...)
prolactin and cortisol ARE the "stress hormones" and his are elevated. that's the clear starting point IMHO.
05-13-2008, 08:06 PM
05-14-2008, 01:16 AM
Here are some additional labs done in the last 8 months:
TSH - 7.07 (.40 -4.50 miU/L)
T3 Total - 92 (60 - 181 ng/dl)
T4 Total - 5.3 (4.5 - 12.5 mcg/dl)
Thyroid Peeroxide Antibodies - <10 (35 IU/ml)
Triglycerides - 230 (<150 mg/dl)
Cholestorol, Total - 192 (125 - 200 mg/dl)
HDL Cholestorol - 55
LDL Cholestorol - 91
Testosterone, Total - 465 (241 - 827 ng/dl)
TSH 4.79 (0.35 - 5.5)
Free T3 3.1 (2.3 - 4.2)
T4 4.6 (4.5 - 12.0)
Free T4 1.21 (.61 - 1.76)
Antithyroglobulin Ab <20 (0 - 40)
Prolactin 17.1 (2.1 - 17.7)
What do you guys think? I tried Armour Thryoid for about 2 weeks and only felt a difference in energy, but nothing major. Still did nothing for libido. It's like I feel nothing down there at all, as if something is suppressing any 'feeling'. Wondering if it's either too low Total Test (even though free T is good!) & low DHT. If progesterone is having a suppressing affect, could raising DHT counterbalance progesterone, thus lowering it? I have read that DHT can lower both progesterone & E2. Does this sound plausable? What about other progesterone lowering drugs such as Winstrol? Any ideas guys?
05-14-2008, 01:23 AM
Thanks again for the advice! This actually all came about from many years of heavy marijuana abuse. I have heard that marijuana can increase prolactin, but not sure about progesterone. I used to have a raging libido when I was younger, now I feel nothing after the years of smoking pot. I'm wondering if this drastically affected brain chemistry, thus causing some kind of hormonal imbalance. I have tried dostinex, but it didn't do anything for me. I'm wondering what other options I have.
05-14-2008, 01:28 AM
05-14-2008, 01:30 PM
your total and free T are fine enough - you should have some libido if that's all we look at. your SHBG is also low, which of course contributes to that (although the extent is hotly debated)...HOW this is, given your ridiculously low LH and FSH, is frankly beyond me. the DHT gives me concerns, because it is really low....and the more i think about it, it's probably a big cause of your problems. i know that whenever i use finasteride, it absolutely slaughters my libido...even if i use it on a test cycle, i am basically back to baseline libido-wise. treating the DHT issue is tricky, because the reality is that IT is not the root of your problems.
i am trying to sort out how low DHT and high stress hormones interact...i know that progesterone binds to 5AR, possibly more strongly than T does, and it may be "stealing" the conversion and robbing you of DHT...but i could be wrong.
here's an excerpt from a pubmed investigation regarding prolactin response to stress...(it gives a bunch of other refs):
It is clear that prolactin secretion is dramatically affected by "stress." A myriad of stresses have been used to characterize such effects on prolactin secretion. These include, but are not limited to, the following: ether stress (116, 667, 866, 876, 893, 1077, 1105, 1200, 1257, 1296, 1913), restraint stress (416, 590, 598, 883, 923, 944, 1446), thermal stress (1782a), hemorrhage (274, 883), social conflict (817), and even academic stress in humans (1108).
i think all 3 of the hormones you have in excess can be excreted by the adrenal glands, so that might be a clue...
wish i could help more....i'd do some more research if i had time.
05-14-2008, 02:20 PM
Your antibodies are low, ok
Your Free T3 3.1 (2.3 - 4.2)
yes, you can add a little Armour Thyroid, but it is not that bad as is.
So while we are waiting for SOLARUS to come with some idea about Prolactin............
I see possibility in exploring HCG.
For the next 4 weeks do HCG injection, 2x per week.
Injection size 1500iu
On end of 4 week period, 48 hours after the HCG shot, draw blood. You keep doing your HCG shots while you are waiting for test results and any follow up decission.
Do these tests at Quest Diagnostics, blood drawn at Quest.
Estradiol, Ultrasensitive, LC/MS/MS (30289X)
Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
Dihydrotestosterone, Free, Serum (36168X)
If you cant get tests at Quest, speak up, I will rewrite the request.
Search for a doctor that deal with Genova Diagnostics.
You can call them, give your zip code they will e-mail you a list.
If you have money, I can add few more items to your blood test.
05-14-2008, 03:49 PM
05-14-2008, 03:57 PM
05-14-2008, 04:00 PM
05-14-2008, 05:34 PM
05-15-2008, 03:03 AM
05-15-2008, 03:15 AM
I did a little research from steriod users who were shut down by deca due to high progesterone. Most of the comments and solutions I saw in fixing the high progesterone problem would be to use a steriod called Winstrol, which has anti-progesterone lowering effects.
I have read a few other places that raising DHT can help lower progesterone. Besides those two things, I think the only other thing that could lower progesterone would be the birth control pill.
So....do you guys think I should give the Winstrol a try and maybe some DHT cream also?
05-15-2008, 09:57 AM
i wonder why more of your rather abundant free T isnt converting to DHT....i really am inclined to think the Pr is binding to it, but i could be totally wrong.
so no other OTC meds or anything else? you're 100% clean?
05-15-2008, 01:56 PM
In regards to progesterone, I have heard that many finasteride users have issues with high progesterone / low DHT also. I feel there could be something to this theory. I'm going to look into buying some Proviron and also maybe some Winstrol. I want to do more research on the Winstrol though since it's a steriod. The last thing I want is to be shut down from taking it. If this is the case, then maybe I should do a trial run while I'm still on the HCG to ensure that this doesn't happen. You guys have been such a great help! I have been battling with this for many years now and hopefully I'm getting closer to finding some resolve.
06-03-2008, 08:57 PM
06-03-2008, 09:25 PM
Thanks bro, I will look into it. I'm saving up to buy some dht cream, proviron (dht in pill form), and some winstrol. I'll save the winstrol for last because I don't want to shut down my natural test. Many people make the claims that dht cream isn't suppressive, so I'll go that route first. If anyone knows of any other methods to lower progesterone, please comment in this thread.
As others have stated here and the working hypothesis so far is that my high progesterone levels are suppressing my sex drive & it's counteracting with my already low dht level. This is the only thing that makes sense because my free T is good & I'm one of the stronger guys in the gym also. Test. obviously is not the problem, but the low dht along with the suppression from progesterone. I'm guessing that my progesterone levels are 2-3 times higher than the medium range I need to be in. I think my situation is unique, I have searched these forums and done google searches and haven't found too many others in a situation similiar to mine. Steriod users who haven't recovered from using Deca (which can cause high progesterone) are in the same boat I think. I wish there was some kind of medication though besides some birth control pills that lower progesterone. I'm stuck with taking DHT for now to see how much it will balance out the high progesterone. Any other comments would be appreciated.
06-04-2008, 07:56 PM
what about bromocriptine or cabergoline for the progesterone/prolactin? have you researched them?
06-05-2008, 02:26 AM
06-05-2008, 08:21 PM
06-05-2008, 09:34 PM
06-06-2008, 12:48 AM
often times with the prolactin-lowering drugs, a) they take several weeks to do their job, and b) libido increase can lag behind a just-corrected hormone situation, ie. it isnt always instantaneous. there's really very little you have to lose by taking a course of bromo or dostinex for 2 months or so and see what happens.
i would drop the HCG if you havent already - it's only going to continue giving the exact WRONG feedback to your hypothalamus (that is, it's flooding you with T that your body will see and want to decrease...)
wait, you werent on HCG when you were tested, were you?
i wish you could find a really good endo...we are all just shooting from the hip here (not that he/she wouldnt...), but it'd be nice to be able to get what you need to troubleshoot this, legally...
Similar Forum Threads
- By John2211 in forum Male Anti-Aging MedicineReplies: 16Last Post: 09-18-2013, 01:33 PM
- By Rob94hawk in forum AnabolicsReplies: 5Last Post: 01-03-2013, 10:41 AM
- By lobbylobsterman in forum Male Anti-Aging MedicineReplies: 2Last Post: 08-28-2010, 08:07 PM
- By Mbmartin in forum Male Anti-Aging MedicineReplies: 14Last Post: 10-03-2007, 06:57 PM
- By oaktownboy in forum Male Anti-Aging MedicineReplies: 34Last Post: 06-27-2007, 11:29 AM