Shippen's protocol freind not a happy camper

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    Shippen's protocol freind not a happy camper


    My freind has been on shippens protocol for 2 weeks doing hcg 200 sq ius a day, he was also taking 6 pills of DIM a day (do not ask me why) LOL no armidex, or other supplements other then multivitamins

    Beginning blood work was
    testosterone 330
    shbg 22 10-50
    e2 46 10-54
    thyroid is optimal, adrenals optimal all ruled out
    he is overly obesse, lipids are fine, everything else is in check

    2 weeks later after protocol blood drawn after injection (shippen said it did not matter ) I would tend to challenge this statement, but I am not a dr
    test 500 (241-827)
    e2 78 (10-54)
    inuslin 5 <17
    hemo a1c 5.2 <6.0

    He asked me what would be logical thing that would be done.
    I suggested that he may
    1. continue with hcg and add armidex (but I think this would be counter productive since hcg may be really cranking up the e2 due to him being so fat !!) in order to combat e2 one would need .5 mgs EOD to begin and adjuct from there.
    2. cut HCG and goto injections may be add armidex after the 2-3 week if blood test verifiy it. Gels did not work on him they tried them already ..

    His urine test showed elevated total E, e2, esterone and low e1, elevated testosterone levels, low dhea and low progesterone, and preg metabolites
    any comments appreciated

    Is it possible to have elevated esterone with out having elevated e2 This puzzles me how this can happen

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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    My freind has been on shippens protocol for 2 weeks doing hcg 200 sq ius a day, he was also taking 6 pills of DIM a day (do not ask me why) LOL no armidex, or other supplements other then multivitamins

    Beginning blood work was
    testosterone 330
    shbg 22 10-50
    e2 46 10-54
    thyroid is optimal, adrenals optimal all ruled out
    he is overly obesse, lipids are fine, everything else is in check

    2 weeks later after protocol blood drawn after injection (shippen said it did not matter ) I would tend to challenge this statement, but I am not a dr
    test 500 (241-827)
    e2 78 (10-54)
    inuslin 5 <17
    hemo a1c 5.2 <6.0

    He asked me what would be logical thing that would be done.
    I suggested that he may
    1. continue with hcg and add armidex (but I think this would be counter productive since hcg may be really cranking up the e2 due to him being so fat !!) in order to combat e2 one would need .5 mgs EOD to begin and adjuct from there.
    2. cut HCG and goto injections may be add armidex after the 2-3 week if blood test verifiy it. Gels did not work on him they tried them already ..

    His urine test showed elevated total E, e2, esterone and low e1, elevated testosterone levels, low dhea and low progesterone, and preg metabolites
    any comments appreciated

    Is it possible to have elevated esterone with out having elevated e2 This puzzles me how this can happen
    Close eyes, listen and follow Dr Shippen's instructions,
    medicine
    suplements
    diet
    life style/exercise

    What was the lattest instructions that he have got from Dr Shippen?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Close eyes, listen and follow Dr Shippen's instructions,
    medicine
    suplements
    diet
    life style/exercise
    He feeling like crap and is getting frustrated, but I keep telling him hormones take time to rebalance and to change in the blood. Every 2 weeks be thankful the man is checking your levels i wish mine would do that at least for total T and E shbg will not reduce for a few months once e2 is stablized. There office are not open till monday then he will find out but untill then he has to deal with it. He has severe herpes and having horrible out breaks and can not sleep at night no appetite either. Barely functioning at work and does not want to use that chrysin topical and wants armidex or some other pharmacetical..
    •   
       

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    Severe herpes?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    If he's a patient with issues why doesn't he contact Shippen and let him know his concerns so he can put them to rest?
    Hes going to call monday..
    He has out breaks when ever e2 goes high thats his indicator LOL
    herpes simplex one about 90% of population has it. He does take valtrex and increasing his dsoages is not even helping
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    Shippen Protocol


    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    My freind has been on shippens protocol for 2 weeks doing hcg 200 sq ius a day, he was also taking 6 pills of DIM a day (do not ask me why) LOL no armidex, or other supplements other then multivitamins

    Beginning blood work was
    testosterone 330
    shbg 22 10-50
    e2 46 10-54
    thyroid is optimal, adrenals optimal all ruled out
    he is overly obesse, lipids are fine, everything else is in check

    2 weeks later after protocol blood drawn after injection (shippen said it did not matter ) I would tend to challenge this statement, but I am not a dr
    test 500 (241-827)
    e2 78 (10-54)
    inuslin 5 <17
    hemo a1c 5.2 <6.0

    He asked me what would be logical thing that would be done.
    I suggested that he may
    1. continue with hcg and add armidex (but I think this would be counter productive since hcg may be really cranking up the e2 due to him being so fat !!) in order to combat e2 one would need .5 mgs EOD to begin and adjuct from there.
    2. cut HCG and goto injections may be add armidex after the 2-3 week if blood test verifiy it. Gels did not work on him they tried them already ..

    His urine test showed elevated total E, e2, esterone and low e1, elevated testosterone levels, low dhea and low progesterone, and preg metabolites
    any comments appreciated

    Is it possible to have elevated esterone with out having elevated e2 This puzzles me how this can happen
    With your friend's E2 rising from 46 to 78, why doesn't Dr. Shippen start him on armidex?
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    Quote Originally Posted by professorJohn View Post
    With your friend's E2 rising from 46 to 78, why doesn't Dr. Shippen start him on armidex?
    That is what the most logical course would be BUT I know shippen loves to use topical chrysin, but in this case I believe it warrants armidex approach. Possible swithcing to IM injections would also lower aromatase which HCG could really be antagonsing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Estrone IS E1.

    Two weeks is nothing. This is a process. Your friend should continue to follow Dr. Shippen's instructions, and allow the good doctor to do his job, without lay person's thinking they know more about this than a physician who is a legitimate legend in this field.

    Whatever Dr. Shippen is doing, he is doing it with good reason.
    Meant low e3 - estriol DAMN ESTROGEN FOG MY SELF HAHA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Why on earth would he feel that way?
    WE know that armidex is proven to work through gov't studies. Chyrsin he is just alittle leary off because its an herb baed product with little scientific back up behind it. We are a now and here society.. Personally I would give it a chance to work, but like any other person they want instant results, but I did tell him less medicine is better in the long run and things take time !! I think the thing that is hurting him is that he never got his estrogen metabolites back because dr ordering the test never requested them or call to get them
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Good point. But in this field, it all boils down to the practitioners knowledge, clinical experience, and instinct. And Dr. Shippen has all in abundance.
    TRust me dr J I have been telling my freind give it time its only been 2 weeks and there are abnormalities showing up, just call Dr shippen and notify him and see what his next step is. We have another e2 gauge thats when its going high -his herpes out breaks are more severe

    Oh trust me one time KSMAN even Pm me to see if I was ok because my grammar was horrible and not my normal logical tone..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    HCG results are measured over months.

    Doesn't he already have an appointment scheduled?

    I briefly spoke to Dr. Shippen this afternoon--he said he was two hours behind already. We won't have time to actually talk until 10PM tonight.
    I think shippen actually does phone follow ups for blood test since they are ran every 2 weeks to make sure everything is in check. BTW should he have taken the shot then draw the blood? I thought that could have spiked his e2 to throw off blood test off ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Where on earth do lay person's get the idea they can second guess a medical legend?
    I think he just wants instant results.. Personally I have suffered 6 years, and can see why he'd feel that way.. But I also see your point of view.

    Are you hypogonadal?
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    Sounds like your friend has a host of problems and is expecting too much too soon.


    Let me get this straight-- he is hypogonadal, obese and has herpes, among other things, yet he expects results right NOW?? How long did it take him to get in the bad shape? Years? He should not expect an overnight miracle. Unfairly cheapens the good doctor's reputation.
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    If he expects things not to work...his expectations will probably be met.

    I would trust Shippen and let him do his thing.
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    Damn I edited that response about 10 seconds after I posted it because I realized that you had already stated he was contacting him on Monday...You're a quick one
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    here's a little piece on chrysin that I found informative.

    http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2003/...r_test_03.html

    perhaps the good doc believes in "easy does it"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    To sum it up, I just LOVE it when a patient tells me "well, my friend said I should do this (or that)", or, even better yet, "some guy on a message board says I shouldn't be doing what you are having me do".
    Very true, but like majority in people in the world who have been sick for years on end just want the fastest resolution possbile. It took me almost 4 years to find out that I had knew I had diabetes in my family, but drs ignored the fact. Thanks to the good dr and guys on these boards that the solution was staring me right in the face the whole time, but it was hidden in beginning. With an shbg of 10 that and low DHEA, low test, hidden cortisol imbalnces that was the red flag. When not treated properly ended up causing hpta dysfunction and shutting down my whole endocrine system.. I keep telling him be thankful you found him. I had to suffer for 4 years and because I went through it I knew where to tell him to go and had kept reinformcing that "he is one of the best in the world and you have to put your faith in him and let him do his thing and what happen to you just did not happen over night and it takes 6 months - year or more to full repair the damage done at the cellular level of elevated estrogen." Some times the truth does really hurt I know..
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    To be honest Dr. J it is the message boards and some of the comments of those people on them that have caused me to suggest things to my doctor which has brought positive changes. To go into an office and try to demand something or to not use tact while speaking to the doctor is one thing but to suggest that just because you don't have a degree you shouldn't have any input in your health is wrong as well.(imho)

    Hell, i'd be willing to bet some of the biggest thorns in your side are probably from those with higher educations and degrees in similar fields of study as you have. I have a co-worker that saved his liver by switching medications that he found by some patients speaking about it on a message board a couple years ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Headdoc View Post
    here's a little piece on chrysin that I found informative.

    http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2003/...r_test_03.html

    perhaps the good doc believes in "easy does it"
    When I searched this article I noted that chrysin is backed by one reference.

    50. Dhawan K, et al. Beneficial effects of chrysin and benzoflavone on virility in 2-year-old male rats. J Med Food 2002 Spring;5(1):43-8.

    Chrysin is tied with benzoflavone, yet with exception of one product (I can't mention its name, unless PM) nobody ever talks or caries benzoflavone.

    I could use more info on benzoflavone.
    ============================== ===============
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...&dopt=Citation

    ======================
    http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs...62002753723214

    Journal of Medicinal Food
    Beneficial Effects of Chrysin and Benzoflavone on Virility in 2-Year-Old Male Rats

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    To cite this paper:
    Kamaldeep Dhawan, Suresh Kumar, Anupam Sharma. Journal of Medicinal Food. 2002, 5(1): 43-48. doi:10.1089/109662002753723214.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Kamaldeep Dhawan, PhD
    Pharmacognosy Division, University Institute of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Panjab University, Chandigarh—160014, India.
    Suresh Kumar, M Pharm
    Pharmacognosy Division, University Institute of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Panjab University, Chandigarh—160014, India.
    Anupam Sharma, PhD, MD
    Pharmacognosy Division, University Institute of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Panjab University, Chandigarh—160014, India.
    This work describes the potential usefulness of bioflavonoids for countering the deleterious effects of aging on male sexuality in 2-year-old rats. A flavone chrysin from Passiflora caerulea Linn. and a benzoflavone moiety (BZF) recently isolated from Passiflora incarnata Linn. were administered to 2-year-old male rats for a period of 30 days. After cessation of these treatments, there was a significant improvement in overall sexual functions in the rats given bioflavonoids, compared with control rats. The rats receiving chrysin (1 mg/kg) and BZF (10 mg/kg) exhibited increased libido when they were allowed to interact with nonestrous female rats. Additionally, both treated groups had increased sperm count, greater fertilization potential, and greater litter size when they were allowed to interact with proven proestrous female rats of a similar strain. BZF was more potent than chrysin as an antiaromatase agent and exhibited better effects on the sexual system of the 2-year-old male rats. Plant flavonoids have great potential for clinical and therapeutic applications against the physiological and biochemical effects of aging.
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    Drug/substance reversal effects of a novel tri-substituted benzoflavone moiety (BZF) isolated from Passiflora incarnata Linn. - a brief perspective - Addiction Biology

    Addiction Biology, Volume 8, Issue 4 December 2003 , pages 379 - 386

    Drug/substance reversal effects of a novel tri-substituted benzoflavone moiety (BZF) isolated from Passiflora incarnata Linn. - a brief perspective

    The circumstances under which this title is published have changed:

    Reason for change: new publisher
    Date of change: 2006


    Abstract
    The present work is a mini-review of the author's original work on the plant Passiflora incarnata Linn., which is used in several parts of the world as a traditional medicine for the management of anxiety, insomnia, epilepsy and morphine addiction. A tri-substituted benzoflavone moiety (BZF) has been isolated from the bioactive methanol extract of this plant, which has been proposed in the author's earlier work to be responsible for the biological activities of this plant. The BZF moiety has exhibited significantly encouraging results in the reversal of tolerance and dependence of several addiction-prone psychotropic drugs, including morphine, nicotine, ethanol, diazepam and delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol, during earlier pharmacological studies conducted by the author. In addition to this, the BZF moiety has exhibited aphrodisiac, libido-enhancing and virility-enhancing properties in 2-year-old male rats. When administered concomitantly with nicotine, ethanol and delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol for 30 days in male rats, the BZF also prevented the drug-induced decline in sexuality in male rats. Because the BZF moiety isolated from P. incarnata is a tri-substituted derivative of alpha-naphthoflavone (7,8-benzoflavone), a well-known aromatase-enzyme inhibitor, the mode of action of BZF has been postulated to be a neurosteroidal mechanism vide in which the BZF moiety prevents the metabolic degradation of testosterone and upregulates blood - testosterone levels in the body. As several flavonoids (e.g. chrysin, apigenin) and other phytoconstituents also possess aromatase-inhibiting properties, and the IC50 value of such phytomoieties is the main factor determining their biochemical efficacy, by altering their chemical structures to attain a desirable IC50 value new insights in medical therapeutics can be attained, keeping in view the menace of drug abuse worldwide.
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    Let us not forget that the obese are walking refrigerators of estrogen and insulin resistence.

    I often wonder if getting someone obese psychological help to overcome drug addictions of food first would be a better choice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Let us not forget that the obese are walking refrigerators of estrogen and insulin resistence.

    I often wonder if getting someone obese psychological help to overcome drug addictions of food first would be a better choice.
    Surpursing thing is that his thyroid levels are in mid to 60-70% of range except that he is pissing them out like crazy as well as his testosterone which makes me think that estrogen is some how blocking the receptors of the thyroid/ testosterone ? He has no appeite to eat and if had energy to work out he would.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    Surpursing thing is that his thyroid levels are in mid to 60-70% of range except that he is pissing them out like crazy as well as his testosterone which makes me think that estrogen is some how blocking the receptors of the thyroid/ testosterone ? He has no appeite to eat and if had energy to work out he would.
    Estrogen in men can cause all sorts of issues with the thyroid.

    This guy seems like a tuff case.

    I'd be willing to bet this guy has some major candida overgrowth as well.
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    "As I teach my students at the medical school, there is no association between a patient's intelligence, or income level, and their ability to follow simple instructions"

    Oh how true
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hardasnails1973
    I think shippen actually does phone follow ups for blood test since they are ran every 2 weeks to make sure everything is in check. BTW should he have taken the shot then draw the blood? I thought that could have spiked his e2 to throw off blood test off ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Doctors expect patients to take all medications as directed. We count on that while reviewing labs.

    You're overthinking yourself--over running your headlights, as they say.
    Looking for study with a chart that would show T blood levels vs time from a last shot.
    Hopefully similar to Androgel dose/level/time study.

    Half-life
    Testosterone propionate 2 days
    Testosterone phenylpropionate 3 days
    Testosterone isocaproate 4 days
    Testosterone cypionate 6 days
    Testosterone entantate 5 days
    Testosterone decanoate 7 days
    ============================== =========

    EDITED

    Ok, second best,
    there must have been study to figure out half life.
    Half life is time from max to 0.5max, but how much time passed from injection to max.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hardasnails1973
    I think shippen actually does phone follow ups for blood test since they are ran every 2 weeks to make sure everything is in check. BTW should he have taken the shot then draw the blood? I thought that could have spiked his e2 to throw off blood test off ?




    Looking for study with a chart that would show T blood levels vs time from a last shot.
    Hopefully similar to Androgel dose/level/time study.

    Half-life
    Testosterone propionate 2 days
    Testosterone phenylpropionate 3 days
    Testosterone isocaproate 4 days
    Testosterone cypionate 6 days
    Testosterone entantate 5 days
    Testosterone decanoate 7 days
    If I remember right there is a good lag time from when injection to t to e conversion. Meaning it does not happen right away, but may be 12-24 hours later possible
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    To sum it up, I just LOVE it when a patient tells me "well, my friend said I should do this (or that)", or, even better yet, "some guy on a message board says I shouldn't be doing what you are having me do".
    I don't do this to my Dr. I tell him Dr. John said this or that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmgamer18 View Post
    I don't do this to my Dr. I tell him Dr. John said this or that.
    My dr asks me same thing and I tell him I hear it from one of the leading pioneers in the field and give Dr J credit to where credit is due..
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    If I remember right there is a good lag time from when injection to t to e conversion. Meaning it does not happen right away, but may be 12-24 hours later possible
    Possibly find out time from injection to max level.

    The half life is time from max to max/2
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    Ha that's what I do to. I tell her Dr. John does this it this way.

    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    My dr asks me same thing and I tell him I hear it from one of the leading pioneers in the field and give Dr J credit to where credit is due..
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    Kinda O/T but....

    Dr John... Are you hypogonadal? And what made you decide to become a D.O.?

    After having so many doors slammed in my face, I see the need for good cutting-edge, caring doctors more then ever. I am very interested in helping other people.

    Also, I am still very interested in having you consult with my osteopath.. I will talk to her next time I see her and try to get it all worked out. With my free test at 32% of the range, and total test in the 300s I have every single symptom, yet no doctors I can find are willing to treat me. Being 23yrs old doesn't help much, I am sure this is part of the issue with me getting treated. I'll give Kim a call in ~10 days.
    -Steve
  

  
 

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