- 07-17-2007, 11:10 PM
Was all excited today to start TRT. I am on NO treatment and was on NO supplements for the test. Got my results from the Rhein Labs urine panel and !!!!!!!!! Says my T is above range and I only got them done is because of years of low T symptoms. I've had a couple blood tests in the past show low T, dhea, etc too. Something isn't jiving with me (disgruntled employee at the lab?). I don't think Dr John wants me to discuss anything we discussed, and I want to honor that. I just wanted to post the lab results and get opinions from different angles from the very knowledgeable people who are regulars here. I am completely confused and ANY input would be GREATLY APPRECIATED. I need help here guys! Please!!!!!
- 07-17-2007, 11:32 PM
- 07-17-2007, 11:49 PM
I'd say the lab fukkered up...
I assume you didn't drink or do any other rec or prescription drugs in the past week or two?
See what a blood test tells you.
Not likely, but...
Could you somehow be pissing out all your testosterone? I've never heard of this, but I wonder if it could happen with kidney issues? Maybe a hypothalmic issue? I don't know much about them though, but I am sure Dr John has some spot-on ideas. Your next lab should give you a more clear insight.
Rhein Labs urine panel
I would appreciate education.
Since DrDelgado discusses (big thank you) some aspects of it in his post, I thought it may be of help on this thread.
Avoiding excess conversion of testosterone into estradiol during testosterone treatme
ULTIMATE MEDICAL RESEARCH, LLC
Estro-Block plus I3C
Indole-3-Carbinol (I3C) 50 mg
DIM Complex 100 mg
Blend of: Diindolylmethane Vitamin E as d-alpha tocepherol succinate Phosphatidylcholine
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645 mg blend
Other ingredients: calcium carbonate and cellulose
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600 mg blend Hoodia Cactus,
Avena Sativa (10 - 1 extract)
Other ingredients: cellulose, calcium carbonate
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You could also have a IGF-1 level in the crapper.
This test is obtainable for 75 bucks threw lef.org.
One time thing
My dad's in the hospital again so I haven't had alot of time to get online. I need a break from all the $%!# that is my life.
I called the lab and discussed why I should believe labs that have me at 1 1/2 times the range and got them to redo the test at no charge. I'll send it out in a few days. It ought to be interesting.
Tomorrow I'll dig out the full blood test sheets from before, scan them and post them here. Here's a few numbers I had though:
Thyroid 1.700 ( 0.350 - 5.500 )
PSA 0.7 ( 0.0 - 4.0 )
Testosterone 407 ( 241 - 827 )
Free Testosterone 12.4 ( 8.7 - 25.1 )
LH 5.9 ( 1.5 - 9.3 )
FSH 2.1 ( 1.4 - 18.1)
Progesterone 0.8 ( 0.3 - 1.2)
DHEA - Sulfate 178 ( 120 - 520)
Estradiol 27 ( 0 - 53 )
I'm not on, nor have ever been on any kind of trt or 'roids.
I'll post more info as I get it.
Saw Dr. John again last Thursday. I attached my new labs. I did nothing different (except drink some more water as suggested) and the results are DRAMATICALLY different. The new ones confirmed hypogonadism, which is good as it started me on the road to treatment. Started on androgel 1% 5g. Liking it so far, I already feel I have more energy and a better mood . Hope to add HCG and go to a higher dose of T with an AI after the next labs. I ordered some of the compounded T thru Dr. Johns office. I gotta say topicals are kind of a pain, I am going to research more on injections.
I am so glad I found this board and Dr. John . For the first time in many years I am optimistic of the future.
I also need to research some of the other hormones like OHET, it's WAY below range and androstenedione is high??? I still have ALOT to learn about all this, but I'm getting better.
In the mean time possibly someone on the know will chime in.
This urine testing is new to me.
How to read the lab reports?
It looks like test results are greatly influenced by hydration, not sure if that would make urine tests somewhat suspect or less reliable than blood tests?
b4554, did you find out what was wrong with your first lab? did u have to take another or did they somehow figure out the first ones correct value?
the reason i ask is i too took a rhein urine panel a few weeks ago and my total testosterone came back at 13 on a scale like 30-100. i was on 100mg of test c so there is no way its that low, also i am feeling much better, i suspect im at 60 perhaps 65
When this relationship is not as it should be, problem arises.
This is assuming that both, blood and urine tests are accurate.
All this is new science and I wish someone who knows would shed some lite on the subject.
For example, on same amount of testosterone injections and on same schedule, people are ending with different TotalT levels.
Even acconting for SHBG does not explain fully the differences.
enzymes, there is many enzymes, we mention only enzyme aromatase, but we newer discuse much more than that.
help me here guys.
if only 10% of tgel is used, and 90% excreted, well then for a urine test to really indicate t levels, the "unused" T must be changed to something else before excretion? (or you expect urine t levels to be high when on gel).
what would indicate the excretion of the unused T in the urine? I mean, is there something that should rise in the urine as a result of this excreted T?
Just wondering what I'm Ping down the terlet.
I drank quite a bit of water with the first test too, but it was hotter and I work outside and sweated more. I don't think I was dehydrated, or at least not enough to make a day and night difference in the results. In my honest opinion I think Rhein screwed the pooch and gave me someone elses results.
I thought about calling them again, but figure I'd never get a true answer. At least I didn't have to pay for the second test. When I first thought I was going to be out the cost of the first tests I was hot . I commend them for redoing them at no cost with only a minor struggle.
I am not sure why the ReheinLabs are so hot.
I could use good technical explanation.
Going by presentation and years in bussiness,
I am going with Genova Diagnostics, former Great Smokies Diagnostic Laboratory.
I am waiting for the kit they are sending to my home.
Metabolic Analysis Profile
GDX Metabolic Laboratory Assessments
Will study results and order any further tests.
I already know I will do their
GDX Endocrinology Laboratory Assessments
Genova Diagnostics EstroEssence
I mentioned about Estroessence in my post #44
since I think it is essential in basic hormonal testing.
The EstroEssence check the following 11 (eleven) indicators:
Estrone (24hr urine)Male 3.00-12.00 mcg/24 hr
Estradiol (24hr urine)Male1.50-6.00 mcg/24 hr
Estriol (24hr urine)Male 3.00-28.50 mcg/24 hr
2-Hydroxyestrone (24hr urine) 0.26-13.68 mcg/24 hr
2-Methoxyestrone (24hr urine) 0.34-9.03 mcg/24 hr
16α-Hydroxyestrone (24hr urine) 0.25-7.89 mcg/24 hr
4-Hydroxyestrone (24hr urine) 0.33-1.95 mcg/24 hr
4-Methoxyestrone (24hr urine) 0.40 0.20-1.60 mcg/24 hr
2-Hydroxyestrone/16α-Hydroxestrone Ratio (24hr urine)0.94-1.56 Ratio
2-Methoxyestrone/2-Hydroxyestrone Ratio (24hr urine) 0.11-4.00 Ratio
4-Methoxyestrone /4-Hydroxyestrone Ratio (24hr urine) 0.18-3.60 Ratio
There is a little mistery with 2-Hydroxyestrone/16α-Hydroxestrone Ratio
Genova Diagnostics shows desirable range (0.94-1.56) Ratio
another words if someone have (16α-Hydroxestrone Ratio) wery small or zero, and therefore very high 2/16 ratio, that is not good either, we need all hormones just in right proportions (make sense to me, but I am not scientist or doctor).
Wow Androgel felt great!......for about a week Back to how I felt before, only with the added aggrivation of having to spear crap all over me everyday and worry about getting it on others. Seems like a common occurance as one shuts down and ends up near origional levels. I'll be sending out another sample after I get a new kit from Dr John. Im *hoping* to go to a higher dose on the compounded stuff and have an AI and HCG too. My nuts already seem smaller. How long does it usually take for them to waste away?
Haven't followed up with Dr. John yet. I'm posting because for the last few years I've had discomfort in my left nut but is way more frequent lately. It used to just bother me after sex more than 2 times in say a 24 hr period. Now it is has a dull ache probably half the day and has actual pain after sex. Any ideas? Reading different posts it seems that if someone has a problem with a nut it's almost always the left one. What's going on? Thanks!
You had it right on post 24 as you start on a lower dose of gel you feel much better because your adding testosterone on top of the your base level. Now your brain sees this and stops of slows down sending the message to your testis to make more. So now your only left with what the gel is doing some men end up lower then there base test. One needs to be tested after 2 weeks on gels so you don't suffer for weeks waiting to get retested.
Also some men the gels don't work as good for them and they need to switch to shots. What makes this bad is you feel worse when your T levels are going down. One always feels good when the levels are going up.
Can't really call this an update. I'm on T creme (5% 1ml daily) and haven't had money for labwork and follow-up treatment so I'm stuck in limbo hell. For the first week or two on T I felt great, but now I'm where I started as to sex problems and other things, only now I have to constantly worry about transferring test creme to others . I am hopefully selling a truck this week to have money to finally continue treatment and I want HCG and I feel I need an AI. Like anyone would, I've experimented with using extra T and had no better results and didn't feel like I thought I would. Estrogen's ugly presence I imagine. Is there any kind of OTC AI (other than zinc) I can buy locally like at GNC to try? If I can't do testing soon I want to try something. If I can do testing I'll wait until after to start something new. I can't stand living like this anymore!!!
PS: This morning I had my girlfriend's 7 year-old ask me why I have man-boobs!!! Will someone shoot me already??!!??!!??!!
All I want is a normal life.....
But I doubt that it is a reason for high E2.
Zinc is useless when one have high E2.
For high E2 use Arimidex.
Proper blood test must be done before any AI should be taken.
"I can't stand living like this anymore!!!"
Low testrosterone speaking, feel sorry for you bro.
Read my PM there are some details there that may help you.
Saw Dr. John a few days ago. I'm now on 100 IU daily HCG in addition to 1 ml 5% t-creme daily, no AI. I forgot my new lab sheet at my shop, I'll post them in a couple days.
A bad traffic jam made me late and I didn't get to ask many of the questions I wanted to. I did a lot of searching through old threads which answered most, but I have a couple more if you guys don't mind:
1) Is there a certain time of day that's best to inject the HCG? (or apply the t-creme for that matter?)
2) I don't want to conceive right now, but I am concerned about it in the future and have NEVER been able to. It appears HMG is the magic bullet in that dept., but how does HCG affect fertility? (In previous tests I had relatively low LH and almost no FSH)
I'm sure somewhere these have been answered, but I've gone through many,many pages and am hoping one of you can help me out.
Daily hcg shots are possibly justifiable during time that you want to conceive, normal time E2D should be fine.
I use E2D 380iu per shot.
Reason for this size explained in bottom of my post #62
Jan's BloodTest April13/2007
I am of opinion that transdermal testosterone is only for men with very low DHT levels, are you in that category.
And then, for me, Androgel was raising my DHT much higher than higher density Tcream.
Probably because Androgel requires larger skin area.
I have heard from Eric, PrimordialPerformance,
that keeping tetosterone shots, and HCG on regular schedule should keep you fertile.
To get extra help, 75iu HMG E2D
Thanks again Jan, this board just wouldn't be anywhere near the same without all the help you give everyone.
I can post my new labs in a day or two. I would like to switch to T shots, but Dr. John felt it best I stay on transdermals. Being I was late we didn't get to discuss it much. I'll bring it up again next time. I wish I could give myself 380iu HCG E2D, but gotta go by what's prescribed. I'll do more labs in 4-6 weeks or so and see where I'm at and maybe get him to give me more. I've been trying to find the point where desensitization starts happening.
Seems like it's in the 500iu E2D range?
I have to be careful because I have a bit of the 'if some is good, more must be better' mentality when it comes to testosterone so I want to get his OK before I make changes.
What changes should I expect from HCG?
I'm gonna keep HMG in reserve for now.
Oh, if anyone's read my threads and wondered, I used B4554 because I'm into classic cars (Buick 455-4)
Using HCG allows you to keep your testicles.
There is debate that they may produce whatewer they normally produce, do not count much on that.
Others say that it increases E2, maybe.
Supposedly most often HCG is enough to keep you fertile.
So you may want to try without HMG, when time comes that you want to conceive.
Labs and questions
Hello again everyone. Here are my latest Rhein Lab results I got from Dr. John. Since starting HRT, I do feel less tired, less brain fog and am actually putting on some muscle instead of just feeling overtrained all the time. My biggest complaint has been and still is ED. Seems like a (small) improvement since adding HCG (still early on it though). I figured my estrogen would be real high.... I have some mild gyno and the ED? I am going to start looking into prolactin and test my levels of it. I figure that may be a culprit (premature ejac. has always been a problem too and my recovery time is measured in days and weeks instead of minutes or hours). I also want to check my SHBG, I think there may be something there too.
Also, I noticed that the 11b-OH Etiocholanolone is WAY, WAY low... I did some searches on it and didn't find much. Can anyone shed some light on it's significance for me?
I am going to try some nettle root extract and B6 as I've read they lower prolactin and SHBG? I plan to get more tests in the future, but money is a big problem and there just is no possible way I can get the extensive blood tests some use.
I'm 31, been having problems since around 20 and am on 1ml daily 5% T creme (thinking of switching to test cyp injections) and now 100 iu daily HCG. Any other thoughts or suggestions would be VERY GREATLY APPRECIATED even if it seems trivial (I am still rather new at this).
Thanks again, Todd
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