Controlling Estrogen and TMG

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    Controlling Estrogen and TMG


    Fellas,

    I am a newcomer to the board and have been reading lots of the threads here over the last few days. I am 24 years old, 5'5", and 150 lbs.

    I came here because I have been sorting through some hormonal issues over the last few years. Basically all of this started when, after two years or so of low libido, I began noticing that my hair was falling out. At the same time, my confidence levels were falling. I was in law school at the time and although I was very, very successful in school and should have been elated, I was mysteriously depressed (and grouchy).

    I used to be an athlete in college and for the first time in my life I had low energy and all of my progress in the gym seemed to stall.

    Well I cleaned up my diet big time, mostly following the recommendations of the Weston A Price people (i.e., lots of veggies, some fruit, raw whole milk, raw cream, raw butter, raw cheese, rib eye steaks, chicken, fish, etc.). That seemed to help with my energy and helped me lean out some. But it has done little for my hair or libido. I have probably had morning wood 5 or 6 times in the last 4 years or so.

    I finally had my blood work done and although I never got to see the results, the doctor reported that my total testosterone was "normal" at something in the high 500s. Since my testosterone wasn't a problem (he suspected it might be low) he sent me home and told me to get some rest. Unfortunately, I didn't know enough at the time to ask about estrogen or SHBG levels. (Is it too late to go back and ask for those records?)

    From all of the research I've done in books (e.g., The Testosterone Syndrome) and the Internet (including this board), it seems like I fit many of the symptoms of those who have hormone problems due to excess estrogen rather than a problem producing normal amounts of T.

    To that end, I just started taking a product called Myomin. It has seemed to help me and I even had a couple consecutive days of high libido and morning wood last week (it is gone again). I am going to stay with this product for a little while longer and see where it gets me. At some point I'd like to add DIM to the equation because I see that it is highly popular on this board and it keeps popping up everytime I search for materials about estrogen. Now to my question:

    QUESTION

    I see that some of you (e.g., Plymouth City) take TMG with your DIM. I tried doing a search on here for "TMG" but it kept saying there were no matches. I am wondering what the role of the TMG is in this equation? Is it something that enhances the effect of the DIM or is it for another purpose altogether? I seem to remember Plymouth City mentioning that it helps with sleep. I already take ZMA, which is wonderful, but I could always go for something that will give me an even deeper sleep.

    Sorry this has been so damn long. Thanks for reading through. Any other input you have would be great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EIC View Post
    Fellas,

    I am a newcomer to the board and have been reading lots of the threads here over the last few days. I am 24 years old, 5'5", and 150 lbs.

    I came here because I have been sorting through some hormonal issues over the last few years. Basically all of this started when, after two years or so of low libido, I began noticing that my hair was falling out. At the same time, my confidence levels were falling. I was in law school at the time and although I was very, very successful in school and should have been elated, I was mysteriously depressed (and grouchy).

    I used to be an athlete in college and for the first time in my life I had low energy and all of my progress in the gym seemed to stall.

    Well I cleaned up my diet big time, mostly following the recommendations of the Weston A Price people (i.e., lots of veggies, some fruit, raw whole milk, raw cream, raw butter, raw cheese, rib eye steaks, chicken, fish, etc.). That seemed to help with my energy and helped me lean out some. But it has done little for my hair or libido. I have probably had morning wood 5 or 6 times in the last 4 years or so.

    I finally had my blood work done and although I never got to see the results, the doctor reported that my total testosterone was "normal" at something in the high 500s. Since my testosterone wasn't a problem (he suspected it might be low) he sent me home and told me to get some rest. Unfortunately, I didn't know enough at the time to ask about estrogen or SHBG levels. (Is it too late to go back and ask for those records?)

    From all of the research I've done in books (e.g., The Testosterone Syndrome) and the Internet (including this board), it seems like I fit many of the symptoms of those who have hormone problems due to excess estrogen rather than a problem producing normal amounts of T.

    To that end, I just started taking a product called Myomin. It has seemed to help me and I even had a couple consecutive days of high libido and morning wood last week (it is gone again). I am going to stay with this product for a little while longer and see where it gets me. At some point I'd like to add DIM to the equation because I see that it is highly popular on this board and it keeps popping up everytime I search for materials about estrogen. Now to my question:

    QUESTION

    I see that some of you (e.g., Plymouth City) take TMG with your DIM. I tried doing a search on here for "TMG" but it kept saying there were no matches. I am wondering what the role of the TMG is in this equation? Is it something that enhances the effect of the DIM or is it for another purpose altogether? I seem to remember Plymouth City mentioning that it helps with sleep. I already take ZMA, which is wonderful, but I could always go for something that will give me an even deeper sleep.

    Sorry this has been so damn long. Thanks for reading through. Any other input you have would be great.
    I suggest that your first step should be
    inventory of your diet and supplements, write it down so you have record

    second, whatewer you do, stay on that routine for about 1-2 monts so you are stable.

    third, good blood test, look at my old post for the list

    post it here so we can have solid basis to take action.

    What to take and what to drop will come latter.

    Hopefully you will not resist this suggestions for too long, whatewer you did for last two years did not worked.

    I used Myomin but dropped it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I suggest that your first step should be
    inventory of your diet and supplements, write it down so you have record

    second, whatewer you do, stay on that routine for about 1-2 monts so you are stable.

    third, good blood test, look at my old post for the list

    post it here so we can have solid basis to take action.

    What to take and what to drop will come latter.

    Hopefully you will not resist this suggestions for too long, whatewer you did for last two years did not worked.

    I used Myomin but dropped it.
    Thanks for your reply. It is all good advice. Three questions:

    1) Any idea about how to go about the blood test? I am starting up new insurance in a few weeks. Is it as simply as making an appointment with the Dr. and demanding a blood test? I haven't had a physical in a while, so maybe I can ask for a blood test as part of a physical?

    2) What post are you referring to?

    3) What made you decide to drop the myomin?
    •   
       

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    Quote Originally Posted by EIC View Post
    Thanks for your reply. It is all good advice. Three questions:

    1) Any idea about how to go about the blood test? I am starting up new insurance in a few weeks. Is it as simply as making an appointment with the Dr. and demanding a blood test? I haven't had a physical in a while, so maybe I can ask for a blood test as part of a physical?

    2) What post are you referring to?

    3) What made you decide to drop the myomin?
    #1, go to a doctor, demand specific tests.
    I would say, stay around and study the issue little, so you are able to convey confidence to doctor in what you are asking for. Ostheopats are your best bet.

    #2. see below. If you find somebody (anybody) who will write this script for you, ask me for ICD-9 codes, they will help with insurance.
    Do the test at Quest Diagnostics, blood drawn at Quest. Go to Quest afternoon on a slow day, give them a chance to get your paperwork ready, it is big job for them.

    #3. To induce testicles to produce Testosterone they must have the capability of it in the first place. I am 67yo, did not have a patience to make real good test and determine if I am primary or secondary. Since most likely my testis even if they produce something they cannot assure full supply, I still have to add external T and HCG. Presence of HCG will assure that I get all that I can produce. Analysis have to stop at certain point and action have to be taken.
    -----------------------------------------------------


    1 iodine
    2 CBC w/ diff
    3 Calcium
    4 Carbon dioxide
    5 Chloride
    6 Copper, serum
    7 Ferritin
    8 Magnesium
    9 Potasium
    10 Selenium
    11 Sodium
    12 Zinc
    13 Alkaline phosphase
    14 ALT
    15 AST
    16 BUN/creatinine ratio
    17 Creatinine
    18 Globulin, calculated
    19 Protein Total
    20 Urea nitrogen
    21 Bilirubin, Total
    22 Bilirubin, Direct
    23 EGFR non afr american
    24 RPR W/Titer & Conf RFX RPR screen
    25 C-reactive protein CRP
    26 Fibrinogen
    27 Hematocrit
    28 Hemoglobin A1C
    29 Homocysteine, cardio
    30 Lipoprotein (A) Lp(A)
    31 Folate, Serum
    32 Cholesterol, Total
    33 HDL cholesterol
    34 cholesterol/HDL ratio
    35 LDL chol, calculated
    36 Triglycirides
    37 VLDL
    38 Vitamin A
    39 Vitamin B12, serum
    40 Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy LC/MS/MS
    41 T3 Free
    42 T3 uptake
    43 T3,Total
    44 T4,Free
    45 T4,Total
    46 TSH
    47 Glucose, fasting
    48 Insuline, serum
    49 PSA, Total
    50 PSA, %, free
    51 IGF Binding protein-3
    52 IGF-1
    53 Aldosterone
    54 Cortisol AM/PM
    55 DHEA sulfate
    56 Prolactin
    57 FSH
    58 LH
    59 Progesterone
    60 Pregnenolone
    61 Estradiol, Bioavailable
    62 Estradiol, Free
    63 Estradiol, Fractionated, serum
    64 Estradiol, Ultra-sensitive (is part of fractionated)
    65 Estrone,serum (is part of fractionated)
    66 Estrogens, Total, Serum
    67 Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
    68 Testosterone Total (included in T panel)
    69 Testosterone Free(included in T panel)
    70 Testosterone Bioavailable(included in T panel)
    71 SHBG(included in T panel)
    72 Albumin, serum(included in T panel)
    73 Dihydrotestosterone DHT

    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Post results of your test in this format, post #1:

    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007

    You will have to condense 10 or more pages of report, into more readable format.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EIC View Post
    Fellas,

    I am a newcomer to the board and have been reading lots of the threads here over the last few days. I am 24 years old, 5'5", and 150 lbs.

    I came here because I have been sorting through some hormonal issues over the last few years. Basically all of this started when, after two years or so of low libido, I began noticing that my hair was falling out. At the same time, my confidence levels were falling. I was in law school at the time and although I was very, very successful in school and should have been elated, I was mysteriously depressed (and grouchy).

    I used to be an athlete in college and for the first time in my life I had low energy and all of my progress in the gym seemed to stall.

    Well I cleaned up my diet big time, mostly following the recommendations of the Weston A Price people (i.e., lots of veggies, some fruit, raw whole milk, raw cream, raw butter, raw cheese, rib eye steaks, chicken, fish, etc.). That seemed to help with my energy and helped me lean out some. But it has done little for my hair or libido. I have probably had morning wood 5 or 6 times in the last 4 years or so.

    I finally had my blood work done and although I never got to see the results, the doctor reported that my total testosterone was "normal" at something in the high 500s. Since my testosterone wasn't a problem (he suspected it might be low) he sent me home and told me to get some rest. Unfortunately, I didn't know enough at the time to ask about estrogen or SHBG levels. (Is it too late to go back and ask for those records?)

    From all of the research I've done in books (e.g., The Testosterone Syndrome) and the Internet (including this board), it seems like I fit many of the symptoms of those who have hormone problems due to excess estrogen rather than a problem producing normal amounts of T.

    To that end, I just started taking a product called Myomin. It has seemed to help me and I even had a couple consecutive days of high libido and morning wood last week (it is gone again). I am going to stay with this product for a little while longer and see where it gets me. At some point I'd like to add DIM to the equation because I see that it is highly popular on this board and it keeps popping up everytime I search for materials about estrogen. Now to my question:

    QUESTION

    I see that some of you (e.g., Plymouth City) take TMG with your DIM. I tried doing a search on here for "TMG" but it kept saying there were no matches. I am wondering what the role of the TMG is in this equation? Is it something that enhances the effect of the DIM or is it for another purpose altogether? I seem to remember Plymouth City mentioning that it helps with sleep. I already take ZMA, which is wonderful, but I could always go for something that will give me an even deeper sleep.

    Sorry this has been so damn long. Thanks for reading through. Any other input you have would be great.
    I am not up on Myomin but from what I read at this link why you got wood and your libido back and then lost it is because you drove your E2 down to low stop taking Myomin and see if the wood comes back when it dose go back on it but take less your going to low.
    http://www.anma.com/janma103.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmgamer18 View Post
    I am not up on Myomin but from what I read at this link why you got wood and your libido back and then lost it is because you drove your E2 down to low stop taking Myomin and see if the wood comes back when it dose go back on it but take less your going to low.
    http://www.anma.com/janma103.html
    Thanks for the link, but I think I may have not explained myself correctly in my earlier post.

    No Myomin = No morning wood for years

    Start taking Myomin (2 pills, twice a day) = Occassional morning wood and increase in libido

    Based on that, it would seem that the Myomin would be taking me in the right direction. Sorry for the confusion. I'll be sure to read up on that link nonetheless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    #1, go to a doctor, demand specific tests.
    I would say, stay around and study the issue little, so you are able to convey confidence to doctor in what you are asking for. Ostheopats are your best bet.

    #2. see below. If you find somebody (anybody) who will write this script for you, ask me for ICD-9 codes, they will help with insurance.
    Do the test at Quest Diagnostics, blood drawn at Quest. Go to Quest afternoon on a slow day, give them a chance to get your paperwork ready, it is big job for them.

    #3. To induce testicles to produce Testosterone they must have the capability of it in the first place. I am 67yo, did not have a patience to make real good test and determine if I am primary or secondary. Since most likely my testis even if they produce something they cannot assure full supply, I still have to add external T and HCG. Presence of HCG will assure that I get all that I can produce. Analysis have to stop at certain point and action have to be taken.
    -----------------------------------------------------


    1 iodine
    2 CBC w/ diff
    3 Calcium
    4 Carbon dioxide
    5 Chloride
    6 Copper, serum
    7 Ferritin
    8 Magnesium
    9 Potasium
    10 Selenium
    11 Sodium
    12 Zinc
    13 Alkaline phosphase
    14 ALT
    15 AST
    16 BUN/creatinine ratio
    17 Creatinine
    18 Globulin, calculated
    19 Protein Total
    20 Urea nitrogen
    21 Bilirubin, Total
    22 Bilirubin, Direct
    23 EGFR non afr american
    24 RPR W/Titer & Conf RFX RPR screen
    25 C-reactive protein CRP
    26 Fibrinogen
    27 Hematocrit
    28 Hemoglobin A1C
    29 Homocysteine, cardio
    30 Lipoprotein (A) Lp(A)
    31 Folate, Serum
    32 Cholesterol, Total
    33 HDL cholesterol
    34 cholesterol/HDL ratio
    35 LDL chol, calculated
    36 Triglycirides
    37 VLDL
    38 Vitamin A
    39 Vitamin B12, serum
    40 Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy LC/MS/MS
    41 T3 Free
    42 T3 uptake
    43 T3,Total
    44 T4,Free
    45 T4,Total
    46 TSH
    47 Glucose, fasting
    48 Insuline, serum
    49 PSA, Total
    50 PSA, %, free
    51 IGF Binding protein-3
    52 IGF-1
    53 Aldosterone
    54 Cortisol AM/PM
    55 DHEA sulfate
    56 Prolactin
    57 FSH
    58 LH
    59 Progesterone
    60 Pregnenolone
    61 Estradiol, Bioavailable
    62 Estradiol, Free
    63 Estradiol, Fractionated, serum
    64 Estradiol, Ultra-sensitive (is part of fractionated)
    65 Estrone,serum (is part of fractionated)
    66 Estrogens, Total, Serum
    67 Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
    68 Testosterone Total (included in T panel)
    69 Testosterone Free(included in T panel)
    70 Testosterone Bioavailable(included in T panel)
    71 SHBG(included in T panel)
    72 Albumin, serum(included in T panel)
    73 Dihydrotestosterone DHT

    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Post results of your test in this format, post #1:

    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007

    You will have to condense 10 or more pages of report, into more readable format.
    JanSz,

    Thanks for getting back to me. I looked up Quest Diagnostics and it turns out they have lab about 3 miles from my home, so that should work perfectly. I start a new job in about two weeks and it comes wih insurance coverage. Since I haven't had a physical in well over a year, I was thinking about going in and asking to get a physical done. As part of that, I suppose I could encourage them to take a look at my hormones.

    There are two problems:

    1) I'm not sure exactly what tests to have them run. Where can I go to get a sense of exactly what hormones I wanted tested (e.g., FT, TT, SHBG, E2, etc.).

    2) The doctor might want to use their own lab to do the blood work. Is it very realistic for me to suggest that they let me do the draws at a lab of my own choosing? I suppose I could just get the script from the doc and drive over to Quest and then send the bill to my insurance? I really have no idea how this works and don't want to be stuck having to pay $1,000+ in lab fees if at all possible.

    Sorry for the rookie questions; I really want to get this right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EIC View Post
    JanSz,

    Thanks for getting back to me. I looked up Quest Diagnostics and it turns out they have lab about 3 miles from my home, so that should work perfectly. I start a new job in about two weeks and it comes wih insurance coverage. Since I haven't had a physical in well over a year, I was thinking about going in and asking to get a physical done. As part of that, I suppose I could encourage them to take a look at my hormones.

    There are two problems:

    1) I'm not sure exactly what tests to have them run. Where can I go to get a sense of exactly what hormones I wanted tested (e.g., FT, TT, SHBG, E2, etc.).

    2) The doctor might want to use their own lab to do the blood work. Is it very realistic for me to suggest that they let me do the draws at a lab of my own choosing? I suppose I could just get the script from the doc and drive over to Quest and then send the bill to my insurance? I really have no idea how this works and don't want to be stuck having to pay $1,000+ in lab fees if at all possible.

    Sorry for the rookie questions; I really want to get this right.
    Correction, the list I posted cost about $3500

    My insurance paid all of it.

    It all depends how badly you want something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EIC View Post
    Thanks for the link, but I think I may have not explained myself correctly in my earlier post.

    No Myomin = No morning wood for years

    Start taking Myomin (2 pills, twice a day) = Occassional morning wood and increase in libido

    Based on that, it would seem that the Myomin would be taking me in the right direction. Sorry for the confusion. I'll be sure to read up on that link nonetheless.
    The bottom line here is if your Estradiol is to high no morning wood and some have bad ED and can't reach an orgasm with it to high. Myomin lower Estradiol and if your taking to much your Estradiol levels will go down to low. Low Estradiol is just as bad as to high you will not be able to get it up taking a pill if your Estradiol is to low or to High.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmgamer18 View Post
    The bottom line here is if your Estradiol is to high no morning wood and some have bad ED and can't reach an orgasm with it to high. Myomin lower Estradiol and if your taking to much your Estradiol levels will go down to low. Low Estradiol is just as bad as to high you will not be able to get it up taking a pill if your Estradiol is to low or to High.
    Thanks. I think I understand what you're saying. In any event, I upped the dosage a little and have had consistent morning wood the last four days, so that would suggest that my E2 is on the high side of things. I plan to confirm this with some blood tests when I get my insurance coverage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    #1, go to a doctor, demand specific tests.
    I would say, stay around and study the issue little, so you are able to convey confidence to doctor in what you are asking for. Ostheopats are your best bet.

    #2. see below. If you find somebody (anybody) who will write this script for you, ask me for ICD-9 codes, they will help with insurance.
    Do the test at Quest Diagnostics, blood drawn at Quest. Go to Quest afternoon on a slow day, give them a chance to get your paperwork ready, it is big job for them.

    #3. To induce testicles to produce Testosterone they must have the capability of it in the first place. I am 67yo, did not have a patience to make real good test and determine if I am primary or secondary. Since most likely my testis even if they produce something they cannot assure full supply, I still have to add external T and HCG. Presence of HCG will assure that I get all that I can produce. Analysis have to stop at certain point and action have to be taken.
    -----------------------------------------------------


    1 iodine
    2 CBC w/ diff
    3 Calcium
    4 Carbon dioxide
    5 Chloride
    6 Copper, serum
    7 Ferritin
    8 Magnesium
    9 Potasium
    10 Selenium
    11 Sodium
    12 Zinc
    13 Alkaline phosphase
    14 ALT
    15 AST
    16 BUN/creatinine ratio
    17 Creatinine
    18 Globulin, calculated
    19 Protein Total
    20 Urea nitrogen
    21 Bilirubin, Total
    22 Bilirubin, Direct
    23 EGFR non afr american
    24 RPR W/Titer & Conf RFX RPR screen
    25 C-reactive protein CRP
    26 Fibrinogen
    27 Hematocrit
    28 Hemoglobin A1C
    29 Homocysteine, cardio
    30 Lipoprotein (A) Lp(A)
    31 Folate, Serum
    32 Cholesterol, Total
    33 HDL cholesterol
    34 cholesterol/HDL ratio
    35 LDL chol, calculated
    36 Triglycirides
    37 VLDL
    38 Vitamin A
    39 Vitamin B12, serum
    40 Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy LC/MS/MS
    41 T3 Free
    42 T3 uptake
    43 T3,Total
    44 T4,Free
    45 T4,Total
    46 TSH
    47 Glucose, fasting
    48 Insuline, serum
    49 PSA, Total
    50 PSA, %, free
    51 IGF Binding protein-3
    52 IGF-1
    53 Aldosterone
    54 Cortisol AM/PM
    55 DHEA sulfate
    56 Prolactin
    57 FSH
    58 LH
    59 Progesterone
    60 Pregnenolone
    61 Estradiol, Bioavailable
    62 Estradiol, Free
    63 Estradiol, Fractionated, serum
    64 Estradiol, Ultra-sensitive (is part of fractionated)
    65 Estrone,serum (is part of fractionated)
    66 Estrogens, Total, Serum
    67 Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
    68 Testosterone Total (included in T panel)
    69 Testosterone Free(included in T panel)
    70 Testosterone Bioavailable(included in T panel)
    71 SHBG(included in T panel)
    72 Albumin, serum(included in T panel)
    73 Dihydrotestosterone DHT

    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Post results of your test in this format, post #1:

    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007

    You will have to condense 10 or more pages of report, into more readable format.
    JansZ,
    I think it is time we updated your BW list.

    T4 free - Pointless
    TSH - Pointless
    Pregnenolone - Pointless

    Unless one is getting urinary tests, all the estradiols can be eleminated except E2. They just don't bode well with BW.

    If one is getting TT and Bio, FT and Bio FT is pointless as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    JansZ,
    I think it is time we updated your BW list.

    T4 free - Pointless
    TSH - Pointless
    Pregnenolone - Pointless

    Unless one is getting urinary tests, all the estradiols can be eleminated except E2. They just don't bode well with BW.

    If one is getting TT and Bio, FT and Bio FT is pointless as well.
    I dont think these tests are pointless.
    They are not good in themselves but they do add information to the bigger picture that u wont get from locking at free t3 alone.

    exp.
    Theres lots of talk about how t4 is beeing converted to t3 and the connection between this and adrenal function. If u only test Free t3 u might miss that yr t4 and tsh needs to be elevated due to yr poor adrenal activity in order to reach normal levels of t3.
    So even when normal levels of t3 are present u might want to look into adrenals if t4 or tsh are elevated. Also if low on both t4 and t3, tsh will tell u if yr pituary is the problem or if its the thyriod by itself thats gone weak.

    Iguess its like testing testosterone without lh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nallepuh View Post
    I dont think these tests are pointless.
    They are not good in themselves but they do add information to the bigger picture that u wont get from locking at free t3 alone.

    exp.
    Theres lots of talk about how t4 is beeing converted to t3 and the connection between this and adrenal function. If u only test Free t3 u might miss that yr t4 and tsh needs to be elevated due to yr poor adrenal activity in order to reach normal levels of t3.
    So even when normal levels of t3 are present u might want to look into adrenals if t4 or tsh are elevated. Also if low on both t4 and t3, tsh will tell u if yr pituary is the problem or if its the thyriod by itself thats gone weak.

    Iguess its like testing testosterone without lh.
    I said T4free - that is pointless. T4 is fine to test for.

    TSH is as useless as the paper its printed on.
  

  
 

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