Overtraining Syndrome, Finasteride Complication?

solonjk

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Hello everyone, i am a very sad individual in an overtrained state for more than 4 months with no signs of getting better. In the past i took finasteride to combat my male pattern baldness. It did a lot for my hair but due to side effects i had to quit it just 5 weeks after i had started the treatment.

Since i took finasteride my life really changed. I was on it for considerably too short of a time to have side effects but nevertheless since then my sex life has diminished. I have been having side effects since, including penile and testicle shrinkage, testicular and groin pain, penis tiliting, complete loss of erection, nocturnal as well as morning woods are gone and i dont even know what they mean anylonger, plus i cant hold an erection even if i get one once in a month or so, palm sweating, hand tremor, headaches and loads of other symptoms.

One of the ways i decided to combat those side effects was returning to the gym and to the basketball courts and exercising with greater vigor and passion than ever before.

Initially i realised it was very hard for me to loose the weight i would otherwise loose in 1-2 months of training and that was at the age of 24. I thought something was going on with my metabolism.

Literally, it took me 2 yrs to loose the weight i would previously loose in 2 month before fin use, and that included careful diets and intense workout sessions including sprinting and squating and playing basketball.

For a serious period of time meanwhile i thought i had stuck at a plateau level and couldnt bench press more than 80 or 85 kg which made me wonder since i have been way stronger than that in the past. Ant that was 3 yrs after fin use and constant training with good eating and periodization and all the things i would do in the past. At that point i started to think how much this drug had affected me.

Anyways, this yr i decided to incorporate more and more squating in my programs in order to try and boost my testo levels and improve my strength and maybe help a little my diminished libido.

Finally what happened was twice this yr i got into an overtraining state. I couldnt really explain it. One day i was happy in the gym lifting and the next day i woke up i wouldnt feel sore or anything, but instead i couldnt get out of bed, i would have serious heart and breathing problems, irritability, dead legs, increased metabolism, need for sleep but complete insomnia and other weird problems, light sensitivity and getting tired from watching tv or playing with my computer and retrosternal heartburn (something like angina but much worse)

Its been more than 4 months now im in this state, sometimes worse sometimes 10% better(that means i can walk for like a 50-60 meters) but generally i am really helpless. i have visited doctors and specialists, each one mentions new supplements and new ways to combat this overtraining. Lately, i tried the active rest program since i was so stuck in bed for more than 2 months and that made me completely depressed, so i started swimming a bit and instead of getting better i have lost sensation of my hands and arms. They feel completely weak and senseless like my nerves are working too much or too little and the signals they send are not complete or my muscles are not there on my hands any more.
On the other hand my legs still feel stiff, heavy, immobile and worst of all i have nausea and dizziness and this is really unexplainable since after all this rest and food i should at least be feeling better.

All this time i have tried increased complex carbo intake, protein supplements, glutamine, zinc, cold and hot showers and baths, l-arginine, massage, relaxation techniques, loads of vitamins and minerals and non of them really made an impact on my situation. I feel completely wacked, stale and like my nervous system is messed up. Sometimes i can walk a bit, sometimes i cant walk at all, sometimes i feel there is someone constricting my veins around the back of my neck and i have to sit or lie down immediately. Most of the times i cant breath properly while standing or walking, i feel the air i breath is not enough, like i have smoked 50 cigarretes or something, and when i lie in bed i breath 2 or 3 times faster and heavier to compensate for the lost oxygen while i was standing.

I have done series of blood tests to exlcude other causes to start with but the most significant and worth mentioning results are the ones concerning my hormone panels.

Testosterone 4.25 ng/ml ------ normal values 4-11
Free Testo 13.8 pg/ml ----- normal values 13-40
DHEA-S 4.2 μg/ml ------ normal values 1.6-4.5
SHBG 13nmol/L ------ normal values 15-48
Progesterone 0.83 ng/ml ------ normal values 0.1-1.0
LH 4.8 mIU/ml ------ normal values 1-15
FSH 2.5 mIU/ml ------ normal values 1.7-12
Estradiol e2 35 pg/ml ------ normal values 0-50

Albumin 4.7 gr/dl ------ normal is 3.4-5.0
SGPT 109 IU/L ------ normal is 25-65
cortisol morning 142 μg/l ------normal is 62-200
cortisol night 42 μg/l ------ normal is 23-119

DHT 50 ng/dl ------ normal is 30-85
vitamin b12 261 pg/ml ----- normal is 160-950



So from all this im concerned whether this fatigue and feeling of not being well is due to testo and free testo, which are affected during overtraining especially the free one or whether it is due to some other complication say for example my high ALT(SGPT) or my low vitamin b12. On the other hand i dont understand why for so long this hormone panel remains the same despite trying to boost it with supplements.

Last yr i have had similar but slighter problems but lasted around 6 weeks, i didnt take any supplements or anything else to correct it, and at that time my free testo went maximally down to 17.5 this time there was a period when it was down to 10.8!!!. I dont know if that is that low, and if anyone here has been overtrained in the past for that long he may wanna enlighten me.

Anyways there is a lack of specialists here where i live in greece, and im really concerned about this thing since 4 months have passed by and i cant get any better, i keep staying inside lying down and trying to relax and think positive, while outside its 35 degrees and my city is literally emptying out!!!. This sucks, really.

To sum all this up, my thoughts are going back to finasteride, since that day i took that drug, my hormones have completely plummeled and i can say that for sure. First i had drop in dht then dht rose and the rest like free testo and T went down while estradiol and progesterone kept increasing.

This i guess made me so vulnerable to all this im facing now, let alone my chances of getting better which are scarce at this point. It feels like im coming out of the gym everyday even right now, completely dead and exhausted but without the feeling of well being there, just the exhaustion.

Moreover sometimes i try to ejaculate and then i have pains for like 2 days, throbbing and stubbing around my testicles and penis. This really is something. I would have sex 2 or 3 times a day 4 yrs ago now i cant even think about it, if i dont recover at least to get back to the gym i dont know what i am gonna do next.

Pls help me, i would appreciate any suggestions or any specialists to refer to for all this.

thanks
 
JanSz

JanSz

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Hello everyone, i am a very sad individual in an overtrained state for more than 4 months with no signs of getting better. In the past i took finasteride to combat my male pattern baldness. It did a lot for my hair but due to side effects i had to quit it just 5 weeks after i had started the treatment.

Since i took finasteride my life really changed. I was on it for considerably too short of a time to have side effects but nevertheless since then my sex life has diminished. I have been having side effects since, including penile and testicle shrinkage, testicular and groin pain, penis tiliting, complete loss of erection, nocturnal as well as morning woods are gone and i dont even know what they mean anylonger, plus i cant hold an erection even if i get one once in a month or so, palm sweating, hand tremor, headaches and loads of other symptoms.

One of the ways i decided to combat those side effects was returning to the gym and to the basketball courts and exercising with greater vigor and passion than ever before.

Initially i realised it was very hard for me to loose the weight i would otherwise loose in 1-2 months of training and that was at the age of 24. I thought something was going on with my metabolism.

Literally, it took me 2 yrs to loose the weight i would previously loose in 2 month before fin use, and that included careful diets and intense workout sessions including sprinting and squating and playing basketball.

For a serious period of time meanwhile i thought i had stuck at a plateau level and couldnt bench press more than 80 or 85 kg which made me wonder since i have been way stronger than that in the past. Ant that was 3 yrs after fin use and constant training with good eating and periodization and all the things i would do in the past. At that point i started to think how much this drug had affected me.

Anyways, this yr i decided to incorporate more and more squating in my programs in order to try and boost my testo levels and improve my strength and maybe help a little my diminished libido.

Finally what happened was twice this yr i got into an overtraining state. I couldnt really explain it. One day i was happy in the gym lifting and the next day i woke up i wouldnt feel sore or anything, but instead i couldnt get out of bed, i would have serious heart and breathing problems, irritability, dead legs, increased metabolism, need for sleep but complete insomnia and other weird problems, light sensitivity and getting tired from watching tv or playing with my computer and retrosternal heartburn (something like angina but much worse)

Its been more than 4 months now im in this state, sometimes worse sometimes 10% better(that means i can walk for like a 50-60 meters) but generally i am really helpless. i have visited doctors and specialists, each one mentions new supplements and new ways to combat this overtraining. Lately, i tried the active rest program since i was so stuck in bed for more than 2 months and that made me completely depressed, so i started swimming a bit and instead of getting better i have lost sensation of my hands and arms. They feel completely weak and senseless like my nerves are working too much or too little and the signals they send are not complete or my muscles are not there on my hands any more.
On the other hand my legs still feel stiff, heavy, immobile and worst of all i have nausea and dizziness and this is really unexplainable since after all this rest and food i should at least be feeling better.

All this time i have tried increased complex carbo intake, protein supplements, glutamine, zinc, cold and hot showers and baths, l-arginine, massage, relaxation techniques, loads of vitamins and minerals and non of them really made an impact on my situation. I feel completely wacked, stale and like my nervous system is messed up. Sometimes i can walk a bit, sometimes i cant walk at all, sometimes i feel there is someone constricting my veins around the back of my neck and i have to sit or lie down immediately. Most of the times i cant breath properly while standing or walking, i feel the air i breath is not enough, like i have smoked 50 cigarretes or something, and when i lie in bed i breath 2 or 3 times faster and heavier to compensate for the lost oxygen while i was standing.

I have done series of blood tests to exlcude other causes to start with but the most significant and worth mentioning results are the ones concerning my hormone panels.

Testosterone 4.25 ng/ml ------ normal values 4-11
Free Testo 13.8 pg/ml ----- normal values 13-40
DHEA-S 4.2 μg/ml ------ normal values 1.6-4.5
SHBG 13nmol/L ------ normal values 15-48
Progesterone 0.83 ng/ml ------ normal values 0.1-1.0
LH 4.8 mIU/ml ------ normal values 1-15
FSH 2.5 mIU/ml ------ normal values 1.7-12
Estradiol e2 35 pg/ml ------ normal values 0-50

Albumin 4.7 gr/dl ------ normal is 3.4-5.0
SGPT 109 IU/L ------ normal is 25-65
cortisol morning 142 μg/l ------normal is 62-200
cortisol night 42 μg/l ------ normal is 23-119

DHT 50 ng/dl ------ normal is 30-85
vitamin b12 261 pg/ml ----- normal is 160-950



So from all this im concerned whether this fatigue and feeling of not being well is due to testo and free testo, which are affected during overtraining especially the free one or whether it is due to some other complication say for example my high ALT(SGPT) or my low vitamin b12. On the other hand i dont understand why for so long this hormone panel remains the same despite trying to boost it with supplements.

Last yr i have had similar but slighter problems but lasted around 6 weeks, i didnt take any supplements or anything else to correct it, and at that time my free testo went maximally down to 17.5 this time there was a period when it was down to 10.8!!!. I dont know if that is that low, and if anyone here has been overtrained in the past for that long he may wanna enlighten me.

Anyways there is a lack of specialists here where i live in greece, and im really concerned about this thing since 4 months have passed by and i cant get any better, i keep staying inside lying down and trying to relax and think positive, while outside its 35 degrees and my city is literally emptying out!!!. This sucks, really.

To sum all this up, my thoughts are going back to finasteride, since that day i took that drug, my hormones have completely plummeled and i can say that for sure. First i had drop in dht then dht rose and the rest like free testo and T went down while estradiol and progesterone kept increasing.

This i guess made me so vulnerable to all this im facing now, let alone my chances of getting better which are scarce at this point. It feels like im coming out of the gym everyday even right now, completely dead and exhausted but without the feeling of well being there, just the exhaustion.

Moreover sometimes i try to ejaculate and then i have pains for like 2 days, throbbing and stubbing around my testicles and penis. This really is something. I would have sex 2 or 3 times a day 4 yrs ago now i cant even think about it, if i dont recover at least to get back to the gym i dont know what i am gonna do next.

Pls help me, i would appreciate any suggestions or any specialists to refer to for all this.

thanks
I would concentrate o SGPT first, testosterone second.
Finasteride probably did not do you harm (DHT in range).
------------------------------------------------------
Have you done any steroid cycles?
Post rest of tests that you have.
Your E2 test should be "sensitive" (have top and bottom range)
Your LH and FSH should be higher with this low test level, is this a cycle without post cycle therapy?
-------------------------------------------------------
ALT (SGPT)
This test is used to identify liver disease and to distinguish between liver and red blood cell hemolysis as the source of jaundice.
Reference Ranges: Men: 0–55 IU/L
--------------------------------------------------------
Hepatobiliary
Abnormal levels of protein/albumin/globulin, albumin/globulin ratio, bilirubin, alkaline phosphatase, lactic dehydrogenase (LDH), AST (SGOT), ALT (SGPT), iron, cholesterol, and cholesterol lipoproteins are indications of potential liver/biliary problems. These may include liver damage induced by alcohol or drug use, liver cancer, or obstruction of the bile duct, among others. Together, ALT and AST allow for differential diagnosis of disorders associated with the hepatobiliary system and the pancreas. High levels of alkaline phosphatase may also indicate abnormally high levels of vitamin D.
----------------------------------------------------------
 

jaydee

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My opinion FWIW is that your liver is playing a big part in your problems. That would be number one. If you had a shotty liver when you took finasteride, then that could explain why you got sides. Your doctor should never have prescribed it to you if your liver is not up to par. Its like taking a mega dose of it because your liver doesnt break it down.

You look hypogonadal to me, more than likely from the finasteride. What else could have done it? No head injuries? Steroid use?....its the finasteride. Serum DHT results dont tell the full story, so that is not enough to rule out the finasteride and even if it were, it causes all sorts of far reaching problems, more than just low DHT.

Biggest thing you can do now that wont cost you a sent is to stop training. There is no point training while your in the state your in.

As far as specialists go, I would see if you can get a doctor there in Greece to work with Dr John via phone consults. He has experience with finasteride.
 

solonjk

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I never had liver problems in the past. Last summer i was also in a similar overtraining state like this yr,(again caused by squatting and playing basketball) its just this yr symptoms have been far worse, i had to stay at home for 6 weeks back then and rest, yet all liver enzymes i tested where always in the normal range.

Moreover i never used steroids or done any cycles, the only thing i ever used was whey protein and finasteride 4 yrs ago!!. How can my SGPT be affected so much. Someone told me it could be due to overtraining itself, it does cause some liver problems, but these have been so extensive now!! since february my sgpt levels range from 80-140. Maybe i overdone it with vitamins, l-arginine l-glutamine and whey, i wouldnt really know what else to say.

Nevertheless, this time overtraining has been something completely different for me, its not just the physical problems im facing, like difficulty standing or walking, fatigue, weakness and so on, what makes me really question is my bad mood, the irritability, the nausea, the feeling of wanting to puke my guts out and the overall sickness i feel. When somedays those symptoms get better, fatigue and heavy legs prevail. And this frustrating sense of weakness and the feeling that my arms and hands are very light is also something really bothersome.

Anyways, sorry for posting so much about this but i am so desperate God knows.
Worst of all is that there is no specialist to visit around here, i bought a fax and printer today to print out testimonies of overtrained people and other research info about overtraining and finasteride so that doctors read and understand that somethings wrong with me. Needless to say, that very few of the medics i visited till today showed any interest in all that, its like they dont care about anything different from what they already know.
 

jaydee

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I never had liver problems in the past. Last summer i was also in a similar overtraining state like this yr,(again caused by squatting and playing basketball) its just this yr symptoms have been far worse, i had to stay at home for 6 weeks back then and rest, yet all liver enzymes i tested where always in the normal range.

Moreover i never used steroids or done any cycles, the only thing i ever used was whey protein and finasteride 4 yrs ago!!. How can my SGPT be affected so much. Someone told me it could be due to overtraining itself, it does cause some liver problems, but these have been so extensive now!! since february my sgpt levels range from 80-140. Maybe i overdone it with vitamins, l-arginine l-glutamine and whey, i wouldnt really know what else to say.

Nevertheless, this time overtraining has been something completely different for me, its not just the physical problems im facing, like difficulty standing or walking, fatigue, weakness and so on, what makes me really question is my bad mood, the irritability, the nausea, the feeling of wanting to puke my guts out and the overall sickness i feel. When somedays those symptoms get better, fatigue and heavy legs prevail. And this frustrating sense of weakness and the feeling that my arms and hands are very light is also something really bothersome.

Anyways, sorry for posting so much about this but i am so desperate God knows.
Worst of all is that there is no specialist to visit around here, i bought a fax and printer today to print out testimonies of overtrained people and other research info about overtraining and finasteride so that doctors read and understand that somethings wrong with me. Needless to say, that very few of the medics i visited till today showed any interest in all that, its like they dont care about anything different from what they already know.
Is it weakness in your hands and feet or are they COLD? This might be a thyroid problem as well. Have you got bloods for your thyroid? You will need them anyway.
 
CF10

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Sorry to hear about your symptoms. I know how you feel. I am finding that it is incredibly frustrating at times when dealing with health issues. I never realized how special one's health is until I started having troubles and got tested. Hell just yesterday I was ready to give up because I had to fire my doctor who was giving me ****ty care, now I'm at square one trying to find someone to treat me.

As far as your liver goes, I wouldnt worry too much. Of course you should get a doctor's opinion, but you need to remember these 2 things about that test result:

1. It isnt dangerously high. You arent even double the high end of normal. Often times people with serious issues get 10x normal values for AST.

2. Working out can cause elevations in liver enzymes, so if you worked out within a day or two of your blood draw it could have an effect.

Also, about training, someone said dont train in your state. But if you love to train and you still feel physically well enough to do it, then go ahead and do it because giving up something you love to do right now will only make you depressed. I'm not saying to continue to overtrain and beat yourself up, but dont give up training altogether and remain bed-ridden. That will only make things worse.
 

solonjk

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Is it weakness in your hands and feet or are they COLD? This might be a thyroid problem as well. Have you got bloods for your thyroid? You will need them anyway.
I have had thyroid tests :

T3 1.06 ng/ml ------ normal range 0.8-2.0
T4 6.0 ng/dl -------- normal range 5.0-12.0
TSH 2.78 μIU/ml -------- normal range 0.2-5.5


that was on the 27/4/2007 one month after i was stuck in bed. At that point my metabolic rate was completely increased, i was hungry all day long, starving literally and eating nonstop.

then i went back and did another set of tests because i started feeling hypoglycemic(despite all that food) for a period of time like a week or so.

T3 1.25ng/ml
T4 6.5μg/dl
TSH 1.95 μIU/ml


them results were on the 30th of April.

See its not weakness on both hands and feet. Its weakness/numbness and a feeling of having very light arms and hands while my legs are stiff and heavy.

Story goes like this- initially(the day after i trained in the gym for the last time) i felt overall fatigue, and very heavy and warm legs (like inflammed), and it was hard and difficult to move them around. Then after around a month or so of resting, my legs got a bit lighter so i thought i wouldnt stay home in bed any longer and went for a swim by the sea. I went for like 5-6 days in a row, trying to swim in a relaxing manner at first, and trully i felt a bit better overall but the last 2 days i tried to swim with a bit more vigor and intensity, so when i finished i noticed my arms and hands felt somewhat weird, numb, lighter than the rest of body parts and very weak.

Now what I think, and speculating from what i have read all this time, that this thing "overtraining", is caused by some autonomic nervous system failure- either sympathetic or parasympathetic-. Its not just plain muscular fatigue, so i must have somewhat overcharged my neural system and especially at that point when i went swimming(being already screwed up), i probably put some excess burden or overcharged the path between motor/kinetic receptors and brain neurons. I really cant explain it otherwise, but i dont perceive it like muscle fatigue in any manner, its same feeling as benchpressing and at some point trying to hold say 100kg of weights at a steady distance from your chest for like some serious time. Theres a point when you probably will start feeling muscular pains then you probably start shaking and you wont be able to hold the weights any longer. After that you may feel that feeling i have, weak overstimulated, overexcited nerves. Thats how i feel. Now I grasp some thing and try to squeeze and very soon reach a limit strength in this grasping process. :(
Anyways im just hoping its not some type of permanent neural (motor and sensory) dearrangement. I hope my strength returns.
Someone told me it is common in overtrained athletes to suffer from limb incoordination and complicated dexterous moves are very difficult for them to perform.

I have also read about athletes dying of heart arrests in overtrained states, due to inability of the vagus nerve to compensate for increasing cardiac demands during overtraining, while doctors who couldnt recognise the overtraining state back then, claimed that those athletes had a history of undefined heart problems, but this is far from reality, they were trying to do excess work at the same state i am or a step before that (overreaching probably). In some other cases the overreaching state or the state before overtraining can last 1 or 2 weeks before going into full blown overtraining.
Thats how i felt last summer, i used to bike like 15 km per day, then squat or do plyos and on second days play basketball. There was a point then for like 10 days or so, when i played basketball and felt like ****, it wouldnt satisfy me any longer, i couldnt lift half the maximum weights i used to and i felt confused and overall strange, with no apetite for life or anything. Instead of resting i would return to the gym and hit the weights till one day i started feeling exactly like this february. But this time, one day i was ok lifting, feeling great and next day i went to full blown overtraining. Thats why i started thinking if finasteride plays some role behind all this.

Moreover, literally all this time, i can say with certainty my breathing capacity and heart rhythm has been screwed up. I walk like 20 meters and need to lie down and rest 30 minutes to revive due to the low oxygen intake and increased heart rhythm, let alone relax the stiffness and burden that grows inside my legs. I visited a cardiologist to exclude any myocardial problems he said anatomically i didnt have any valve or other issues and after doing the necessary blood tests and ultrasounds he told me that he couldnt think of anything more to check. Oh well
 
JanSz

JanSz

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Sorry to hear about your symptoms. I know how you feel. I am finding that it is incredibly frustrating at times when dealing with health issues. I never realized how special one's health is until I started having troubles and got tested. Hell just yesterday I was ready to give up because I had to fire my doctor who was giving me ****ty care, now I'm at square one trying to find someone to treat me.

As far as your liver goes, I wouldnt worry too much. Of course you should get a doctor's opinion, but you need to remember these 2 things about that test result:

1. It isnt dangerously high. You arent even double the high end of normal. Often times people with serious issues get 10x normal values for AST.

2. Working out can cause elevations in liver enzymes, so if you worked out within a day or two of your blood draw it could have an effect.

Also, about training, someone said dont train in your state. But if you love to train and you still feel physically well enough to do it, then go ahead and do it because giving up something you love to do right now will only make you depressed. I'm not saying to continue to overtrain and beat yourself up, but dont give up training altogether and remain bed-ridden. That will only make things worse.
Assuming that you are right about liver...................

Depressed state may be due to his low Testosterone.
He can go the longer way ie; trying to restart his balls
or shorter way ie; start HCG and T supplementation right away.


Assumimg the faster way:
Assuming again that he do not count on natural T production but do not want to stop it if there is any:
Hi will be using HCG

SHBG 13nmol/L ------ normal values 15-48 (very low do not take anything that inhibits SHBG)
that requres

TotalT=750

to achieve that hi need
100mg/week Testosterone Enanthate 200mg/mL
Assume E2D dosing (the safe way causing least problems)
=100/7*2=28.6mg/dose
that 14.5 units on insuline syringe

his HCG dose is 250IU

his routine is E2D both shots (T+hcg) on same day one free day in between.

Accelerated routine to get at desired T level quicker

Day1-4T doses +hcg
Day2-1T+hcg
Day3-1T+hcg
Day4-free no shots
Day5-1T+hcg
Day6-free of shots
Day7-1T+hcg
Day8-free of shots
continue E2D syatem

I use this syringe and do SubQ shots of (T+hcg) around navel.
It takes 4 minutes to suck the T in.
I use Depo_T, Enanthate may differ.

BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b
BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $25.95
===============================================
This is routine for 2-3 months only.
Blood test after that time.
 

solonjk

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I was now at my pathologist/hepatologist and she told me that SGPT levels have been lowered since last time but i shouldnt go on adding supplements to my diet right away. Instead i should wait a couple of months. On the other hand she doubts my overall condition and feelings are due to this increase in sgpt levels.
What to say, i still have to see the endocrinologist some time soon
 

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