real quick question about DIM and androgel dosing

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    real quick question about DIM and androgel dosing


    What is the optimal dosage for this anti-estrogen?

    I hear conflicting dosage regimens all over the place but for those on TRT (me 7.5g daily androgel) what works best...

    also, is it appropriate to split the 7.5g into two applications daily? Namely the 5g pack in the AM and the 2.5g pack in the PM?

    Curious...

    I did make an appt for the endo for 16th July so we will see how that works out for me. My PCP is keeping me on the gel but I want to see what an endo has to say about it as well.

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    Thank you very much...

    I take 200mg of DIM a day, thinking of lowering it to 100. I hear conflicting evidence all over about it.

    On a personal note, I would love to work with you and my family doctor together but funds are killing me due to the upcoming wedding.... we'll see what the immediate future holds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugbyHooligan View Post
    Thank you very much...

    I take 200mg of DIM a day, thinking of lowering it to 100. I hear conflicting evidence all over about it.

    On a personal note, I would love to work with you and my family doctor together but funds are killing me due to the upcoming wedding.... we'll see what the immediate future holds.
    Rugby,
    The good Dr left out one more critical point - Don't take that gel for 6 full hours before bed. So if you go to bed at 10pm, take second dose at 4.
    •   
       

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    what is the reason for that plymouth?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugbyHooligan View Post
    what is the reason for that plymouth?
    You might have insomnia
    or you migtht end up being an internet porn freak from all that un used testosterone LOL
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    hahaha.... well I should have no problems sleeping as I get up real early and as far as internet porn goes, well thats a chance I have to take.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugbyHooligan View Post
    hahaha.... well I should have no problems sleeping as I get up real early and as far as internet porn goes, well thats a chance I have to take.
    Don't let the misses catch ya and do not tell her your going on to check the boards..We know what you really are doing
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugbyHooligan View Post
    Thank you very much...

    I take 200mg of DIM a day, thinking of lowering it to 100. I hear conflicting evidence all over about it.

    On a personal note, I would love to work with you and my family doctor together but funds are killing me due to the upcoming wedding.... we'll see what the immediate future holds.
    If you short on $$ how can you afford Androgel?

    After so many years on Androgel and since Feb/07 on T cream, I switched to E3D (T+HCG) shots.
    I use original Depo-Testosterone, $149 at Wallgreens.
    Generic version $100
    One could get compouned version for about $40 from compounding pharmacy.
    10mL vial
    10mL * 200 mg/mL=2000mg
    weekly dose 131mg
    2000/131=15 weeks

    I must say one of the things I enjoy most is not being forced to plan my life around showers and waiting for the thing to dry up.
    I can shower now anytime I want no pre-planing necessary.
    Touch or hug women or my little grandson without second thought.

    I do T & hcg shots SubQ around navel, for both shots I use the smallest available needle
    BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b
    BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $25.95

    There is less expensive version
    Easy Touch U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16 inch Short Needle 100/Box
    Easy Touch U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16 inch Short Needle 100/Box Sale Price: $13.99

    It takes 3 minutes to suck the Depo-T in, well wort it.
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    I am not short on money, it is just hard to spend 300 at a pop right now while paying for a wedding. Not that I cannot afford it, but the wedding is in Feb and my girl and I are footing all the bill, plus we live on Long Island which isn't exactly a cheap place to live.

    plus my insurance covers androgel, so that isn't a big deal

    once things get a little settled I plan on working with the good Dr and I am sure he will take care of what works for me so I can get off the androgel and into a more effective regimen that works for me better than the gel

    its a pain in the ass to plan a day around gel and avoid what I love until maximum absorption sets in.

    Jansz, I guess you are a Dr John patient then?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugbyHooligan View Post
    I am not short on money, it is just hard to spend 300 at a pop right now while paying for a wedding. Not that I cannot afford it, but the wedding is in Feb and my girl and I are footing all the bill, plus we live on Long Island which isn't exactly a cheap place to live.

    plus my insurance covers androgel, so that isn't a big deal

    once things get a little settled I plan on working with the good Dr and I am sure he will take care of what works for me so I can get off the androgel and into a more effective regimen that works for me better than the gel

    its a pain in the ass to plan a day around gel and avoid what I love until maximum absorption sets in.

    Jansz, I guess you are a Dr John patient then?
    Hi neighbor;
    Money does not bring happiness but it helps to rent it.
    No I am not dr John's patient, but I have osteopath for a doctor.
    Good luck with your wedding.
    Now you telling me that I did not had to pay for my daughter's wedding.
    I used to live in Minneola, Long Island when I first came to States in 1972.
    Did 20000 screwdrivers a day in a sweat shop, $2.15/hr.
    I am so lucky I still have all my fingers.
    Now Parsippany NJ.
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    you got that right about money... that is for sure.

    we do ok for ourselves, and to be honest I probably will go to Dr John soon after this month is over if the endo doesn't pan out for me. I just cannot fork out 300 right now for the initial visit because we are booking the hotel, limo, flowers and paying part of the honeymoon this month.

    20,000 screwdrivers a day.... that's what I call slavery, bro. I'm lucky that I only USE the screwdrivers and not make them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugbyHooligan View Post
    you got that right about money... that is for sure.

    we do ok for ourselves, and to be honest I probably will go to Dr John soon after this month is over if the endo doesn't pan out for me. I just cannot fork out 300 right now for the initial visit because we are booking the hotel, limo, flowers and paying part of the honeymoon this month.

    20,000 screwdrivers a day.... that's what I call slavery, bro. I'm lucky that I only USE the screwdrivers and not make them.
    The company was called Great Neck, it was located in Mineola.
    I did not complained, I had to eat.
    It took me 4 years to buy my first house,
    except I was designing Nuclear Power Plants by then.
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    JanSz....

    that is great, man.

    Where are you from originally? I admire those who are the essence of the American Dream and you show that. Seems that immigrants want it more than native borns.

    I have an app't with an Endo on the 16th of July and I plan to grill him with multiple questions in the hope he will work with me to find the best "cocktail" for me to treat this condition. If, for any reason, I do not feel he will do what I need I will not hesitate to put aside funds to consult with Dr. John.

    I am not playing musical doctors, nor do I plan to. I don't want to waste time, money or be a guinea pig or treated like an idiot by an elitist specialist. I know how my body reacts and I don't need a by the book doctor to tell me I am wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugbyHooligan View Post
    JanSz....

    that is great, man.

    Where are you from originally? I admire those who are the essence of the American Dream and you show that. Seems that immigrants want it more than native borns.

    I have an app't with an Endo on the 16th of July and I plan to grill him with multiple questions in the hope he will work with me to find the best "cocktail" for me to treat this condition. If, for any reason, I do not feel he will do what I need I will not hesitate to put aside funds to consult with Dr. John.

    I am not playing musical doctors, nor do I plan to. I don't want to waste time, money or be a guinea pig or treated like an idiot by an elitist specialist. I know how my body reacts and I don't need a by the book doctor to tell me I am wrong.
    I am originally from Poland.

    If you want and are able do my long blood test.
    I can post it again if you are interested.
    It is expensive, $3500, I had it done in April/07, completely covered by Medicare, my secondary BCBS was not charged.
    Trick is to get ICD-9 codes in order.
    I can post them again also.
    They are my codes, may not fit you exactly, but would give your doc good starting point.

    With good, long, blood test your are able to catch more out of line items.
    Sounds like common sense to me, but others argue.
    That kind of test I do once/year, but I am 67yo, younger guys may do it every few years.
    Latter, with the help of the first test, you are able to do more directed testing.
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    know what man, PM it to me... let me check it out and I will give it to my Endo and see what is covered under my insurance plan.

    Thanks, bro
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    hahaha I hear ya Dr... I hope you don't think that that is in reference to you, because it isn't.

    I hear horror stories about Endos and their attitudes towards patients. One of my best friends is diabetic and has told me her experiences with a few Endo's. My mother had issues with hers, my father did as well as other people I have known have told me about their experiences with Endo's who were condescending and rude.

    I will not hesitate in telling him to go play in the street if I feel he is going to be lax with his treatment of me.

    Then again I almost expect it, so I guess you will be hearing from me in the month of August for a consultation with my PCP.

    I hear great things about you, from numerous locations on the web, but before I do that I will just give a local doctor a fair chance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugbyHooligan View Post
    know what man, PM it to me... let me check it out and I will give it to my Endo and see what is covered under my insurance plan.

    Thanks, bro
    The list I developed mostly using information I gathered on this board and LEF. I a way I think of it as common good.
    So I post it right here.
    Best it is to do the test at Quest Diagnostics, blood drawn at Quest.
    I do it at the day of the shot right before the shot, aiming for minimum T levels.
    There are other opinions on this.
    It is a large test, it pays to go to Quest few days before test to give them a chance to do their paperwork.

    I will post mine ICD-9 codes below.

    ============================== ================

    0 iodine
    1 CBC w/ diff
    2 Calcium
    3 Carbon dioxide
    4 Chloride
    5 Copper, serum
    6 Ferritin
    7 Magnesium
    8 Potasium
    9 Selenium
    10 Sodium
    11 Zinc
    12 Alkaline phosphase
    13 ALT
    14 AST
    15 BUN/creatinine ratio
    16 Creatinine
    17 Globulin, calculated
    18 Protein Total
    19 Urea nitrogen
    20 Bilirubin, Total
    21 Bilirubin, Direct
    22 EGFR non afr american
    23 RPR W/Titer & Conf RFX RPR screen
    24 C-reactive protein CRP
    25 Fibrinogen
    26 Hematocrit
    27 Hemoglobin A1C
    28 Homocysteine, cardio
    29 Lipoprotein (A) Lp(A)
    30 Folate, Serum
    31 Folate, Serum
    32 Cholesterol, Total
    33 HDL cholesterol
    34 cholesterol/HDL ratio
    35 LDL chol, calculated
    36 Triglycirides
    37 VLDL
    38 Vitamin A
    39 Vitamin B12, serum
    40 Vitamin D, panel
    43 T3 Free
    44 T3 uptake
    45 T3,Total
    46 T4,Free
    47 T4,Total
    48 TSH
    49 Glucose, fasting
    50 Insuline, serum
    51 PSA, Total
    52 PSA, %, free
    53 IGF Binding protein-3
    54 IGF-1
    55 Aldosterone
    56 Cortisol AM/PM
    57 DHEA sulfate
    58 Prolactin
    59 FSH
    60 LH
    61 Progesterone
    62 Pregnenolone
    63 Estradiol, Bioavailable
    64 Estradiol, Free
    65 Estradiol, Fractionated, serum
    66 Estradiol, Ultra-sensitive (is part of fractionated)
    67 Estrone,serum (is part of fractionated)
    68 Estrogens, Total, Serum
    69 Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
    70 Testosterone Total (included in T panel)
    71 Testosterone Free(included in T panel)
    72 Testosterone Bioavailable(included in T panel)
    73 SHBG(included in T panel)
    74 Albumin, serum(included in T panel)
    75 Dihydrotestosterone DHT
    ============================== ==================
    All these numbers are posted on my blood script. Some of them are posted on scripts for, Depo-T, Novarel, Armour, Cortef, Cialis, compounded pregnenolone cream
    Below this list is the same list with explanation of those numbers.

    257.2
    272.4
    601.9
    780.4
    780.79
    788.41
    253.3
    255.8
    ============================== ================
    http://www.icd9data.com/
    257.2 Other testicular hypofunction http://www.icd9data.com/2007/Volume1.../257/257.2.htm
    272.4 Other and unspecified hyperlipidemia http://www.icd9data.com/2007/Volume1...72/default.htm
    601.9 Prostatitis unspecified http://www.icd9data.com/2007/Volume1...01/default.htm
    780.4 Dizziness and giddiness http://www.icd9data.com/2007/Volume1.../780/780.4.htm
    780.79 Other malaise and fatigue http://www.icd9data.com/2007/Volume1...780/780.79.htm
    788.41 Urinary frequency http://www.icd9data.com/2007/Volume1...788/788.41.htm
    253.3 Adult Onset Growth Hormone Deficiency
    255.8 Other specified disorders of adrenal glands http://www.icd9data.com/2007/Volume1.../255/255.8.htm

    http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/505428-post5.html
    255 Disorders of adrenal glands
    For coding adrenal fatigue, I just use the code for Other Specified Disorders of the Adrenal Glands - which I call Adrenal Fatigue
    255.8 Other specified disorders of adrenal glands http://www.icd9data.com/2007/Volume1.../255/255.8.htm
    HGH and Insurance Coverage
    Dr. John 12-17-2006, 06:25 AM
    ICD-9 253.3 Adult Onset Growth Hormone Deficiency
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    that is a HUGE blood test, bro...

    holy shi.....

    isn't a lot of that pretty much not going to matter in TRT
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugbyHooligan View Post
    that is a HUGE blood test, bro...

    holy shi.....

    isn't a lot of that pretty much not going to matter in TRT
    Yours choice.
    Insurance pays, you gain knowledge of your body.
    Get drink with you, lots of blood.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    The company was called Great Neck, except I was designing Nuclear Power Plants by then.
    I had a sneaking suspician about you JansZ as being this wealthy mad genius guy in a mansion. , like Mr Burns from the simpsons
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugbyHooligan View Post
    hahaha I hear ya Dr... I hope you don't think that that is in reference to you, because it isn't.

    I hear horror stories about Endos and their attitudes towards patients. One of my best friends is diabetic and has told me her experiences with a few Endo's. My mother had issues with hers, my father did as well as other people I have known have told me about their experiences with Endo's who were condescending and rude.

    I will not hesitate in telling him to go play in the street if I feel he is going to be lax with his treatment of me.

    Then again I almost expect it, so I guess you will be hearing from me in the month of August for a consultation with my PCP.

    I hear great things about you, from numerous locations on the web, but before I do that I will just give a local doctor a fair chance.
    Endos
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    I know plymouth... I know...

    I think I am a glutton for punishment, but I will give this ONE a fair chance, if he is a douchebag, well then I will not use him again.
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    I will print that list out, Jansz, for the next blood test... how many vials do they take?
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    I had a sneaking suspician about you JansZ as being this wealthy mad genius guy in a mansion. , like Mr Burns from the simpsons
    I have a more in comon with Simpson that Mr Burns.
    I had worked on Nuclear Power Plant and at one time I had a boss sort of like Mr Burns.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugbyHooligan View Post
    I will print that list out, Jansz, for the next blood test... how many vials do they take?
    Do not worry you will be able to get up and go home on you own.
    It is only one needle morning and another one afternoon.
    Remember, go around 2-3PM to the blood drawing place, couple days before test, so they have an opportunity to prepare paperwork.
    Starting now, do not put any Androgel on a hand where the blood is going to be drawn from.
    -----------------
    Now the confusing part.
    I like to draw blood in the morning before aplying Androgel.
    That results in minimum TT levels.
    Dr John, I think prefers blood to be drawn 2-3 hours after Androgel is applied. That results in maximum TT levels.
    I think the most important is consistency so results from different tests can be compared.
    -------------------
    You are going to make two trips, morning and about 4PM
    Morning they draw for just about all tests.
    Afternoon they take for Cortisol PM and few items if they forgot morning.

    ============================== ============================== =======
    Find a Location of Quest Diagnostic lab
    http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp/..._psc_index.jsp
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    Endos say the darndest things *insert picture of Bill Cosby sitting with an endo*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Nice complilation! Also, providing all ICD-9 Codes is very cool.

    Please see my bolded entries above.

    YOU MIGHT WANT TO SAVE THIS.
    I appreciate your comments, everybody will benefit, thanks again.

    Please add some popular (in your practice) ICD-9 codes.
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    thank you all for your help with this...

    I will take that list to the Endo and listen to him debunk it. hahaha

    I am sure I will be back here talking about how I am paying for Dr. John's services soon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugbyHooligan View Post
    thank you all for your help with this...

    I will take that list to the Endo and listen to him debunk it. hahaha

    I am sure I will be back here talking about how I am paying for Dr. John's services soon.
    Reminder,
    this list is ment to take a look at your over all health.
    I think everybody should do it once every few years.

    It contains elements of your already uncovered problems.

    Try to sell this list to your doctor as your pre-marital check-up.
    Add to it hcg and possibly couple others.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    I used to work with a iranian Jew and hi was planning to marry european Jew (girl).
    Eventually they did not matched.
    I do not know the details.
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    I'm sure I won't be, Doc... hahaha

    I'll give that list to the endo and see what he says.

    Thanks again, guys, for your help with this. Reinforces my knowledge that this board is the best for this information around.
  

  
 

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