Finasteride frustration

[jaydee]

This is a bit of vent here. I have been off finasteride for 14 months now and have not got my libido back. I have tried TRT, TRT with HCG, ive tried to restart my HPTA, DIM and nothing is working. Im working with a Dr here in Australia at the moment and Dr John, trying a few things. I appreciate Dr John's input a great deal - he has really tried to help me with this and I know how much of a ***** this drug is to work with.

When I first started TRT I had somthing that resembled a sex drive though it was still missing somthing. I felt horny but still my penis felt detached from my brain a bit. Hard to explain it - its kind of numb. But it definately did give me that "feel good horny feeling" that I miss. This feeling though would only come on for about 3 hrs at a time and only happened about twice. My T level was high so absorbtion was good, E was still pretty good at about 33. Can anyone explain what might have happened there? Why the big boost and then the drop off? Could have been just the T cream and my own T until I shut down, but why cant I get that feeling with T cream and HCG?

I think this is a good sign in some ways as it tells me everything still works somewhat. Erections were no drama during this brief time frame and it shows I am capable of feeling somewhat of a libido.

I get a lot of E dominance type symptoms like bloat and fat gain too which is odd considering my E2 level is nothing to write home to mum about, though I guess it could be lower a little.

Another thing is my T level was high and I got my DHT level back the other day (blood test) and it was smack bang in the middle of range. It makes me wonder if im still not converting to DHT properly.

Sorry for the long winded rant everyone, I need a bit of hope here cause this is doing my head in.:rant:

 

[JanSz]

This is a bit of vent here. I have been off finasteride for 14 months now and have not got my libido back. I have tried TRT, TRT with HCG, ive tried to restart my HPTA, DIM and nothing is working. Im working with a Dr here in Australia at the moment and Dr John, trying a few things. I appreciate Dr John's input a great deal - he has really tried to help me with this and I know how much of a ***** this drug is to work with.

When I first started TRT I had somthing that resembled a sex drive though it was still missing somthing. I felt horny but still my penis felt detached from my brain a bit. Hard to explain it - its kind of numb. But it definately did give me that "feel good horny feeling" that I miss. This feeling though would only come on for about 3 hrs at a time and only happened about twice. My T level was high so absorbtion was good, E was still pretty good at about 33. Can anyone explain what might have happened there? Why the big boost and then the drop off? Could have been just the T cream and my own T until I shut down, but why cant I get that feeling with T cream and HCG?

I think this is a good sign in some ways as it tells me everything still works somewhat. Erections were no drama during this brief time frame and it shows I am capable of feeling somewhat of a libido.

I get a lot of E dominance type symptoms like bloat and fat gain too which is odd considering my E2 level is nothing to write home to mum about, though I guess it could be lower a little.

Another thing is my T level was high and I got my DHT level back the other day (blood test) and it was smack bang in the middle of range. It makes me wonder if im still not converting to DHT properly.

Sorry for the long winded rant everyone, I need a bit of hope here cause this is doing my head in.:rant:

What are you doing for other than E2 estrogens.
What levels are they?

 

[jaydee]

Ive tried DIM and Ive also tried Calcium D Glucarate in the past. Ive tried a few different types of DIM also, at least 3. Ive only had E2 checked so far and it was around 33 on TRT and around 28 prior to TRT.

I have Chrysin mixed into my T cream also. I get that from a pharmacy here in Australia. I remember you asking about that in another thread.

I read of another guy on the propeciahelp forum who has full blown gyno and his E2 is low and yet he felt great on TRT.

 

[JanSz]

Ive tried DIM and Ive also tried Calcium D Glucarate in the past. Ive tried a few different types of DIM also, at least 3. Ive only had E2 checked so far and it was around 33 on TRT and around 28 prior to TRT.

I have Chrysin mixed into my T cream also. I get that from a pharmacy here in Australia. I remember you asking about that in another thread.

I read of another guy on the propeciahelp forum who has full blown gyno and his E2 is low and yet he felt great on TRT.

Chysin is used to make SHBG lower.
What is your SHBG level?

You have to test more than just E2, otherwise you working blind, hard to expect progress.

I do not use DIM alone, my personal choice.
DualAction have quite few other ingredients, DIM is minor part.
I use DualAction 6 pills and TMG 2 pills.
Both can be shipped to Australia by LEF.

Today I switched to Depo-Testosterone from Tcream.
I could not high enough on T cream.

All is in testing, medicine and supplements are second.

 

[jaydee]

SHBG is 36 nmol/L.

I tried Natures Way DIM plus in the past and it didnt help that I noticed. Is this much different from Dual Action?

Are you thinking test Total Estrogens?

 

[JanSz]

SHBG is 36 nmol/L. Little high use Chrysin to lower it

I tried Natures Way DIM plus in the past and it didnt help that I noticed. Is this much different from Dual Action?

This is about estrogens, mostly other than E2,

Are you thinking test Total Estrogens?

Yes, no mather what any body says, I am testing Total estrogens, and was able to make it lower. Previously over the top, last test was within range.
I will keep testing it.

 

[jaydee]

Is there any link also between using shots or transdermal and TOTAL E numbers or even E symptoms?

Has anyone switched from one to the other and found their total E has come down or their symptoms have gotten better?

Janz are you seeing any improvement in your symptoms as a result of your total E' coming down?

 

[JanSz]

Is there any link also between using shots or transdermal and TOTAL E numbers or even E symptoms?

Has anyone switched from one to the other and found their total E has come down or their symptoms have gotten better?

Janz are you seeing any improvement in your symptoms as a result of your total E' coming down?

Do not feel anything special by having Total E and Estrone in acceptable range.

May be just me, but if I can help it, I rather have my numbers in correct places.

If feels good, specially when I was told before that those numbers are incorrectable.

 

[jaydee]

It will be interesting to see what happens to your total E when you get your DHT down through switching to shots. Since DHT is an E antagonist. Note how it says in this link: DHT is a potent inhibitor of the formation of estrone from androstenedione

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/reform8.htm

"How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least."

 

[JanSz]

It will be interesting to see what happens to your total E when you get your DHT down through switching to shots. Since DHT is an E antagonist. Note how it says in this link: DHT is a potent inhibitor of the formation of estrone from androstenedione

Bodybuilding.com - Reform Mag - The Facts And Myths About: DHT!

"How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least."

I am curious myself.
But I have a high level to fall down from.
Oct2005 DHT=226ng/dL(30-85)LabCorp (on 10grams of Androgel)
April2007 DHT=143ng/dL(25-75)Quest (on 1gram of Tcream ie; same amount of T as in 10gr of Androgel)
now 130mg/week Depo-T & 500iu HCG E3D
next blood test begining of Sept.

 

[jaydee]

"SHBG is 36 nmol/L. LITTLE HIGH, USE CHRYSIN TO LOWER IT"

What is the optimal reference range for SHBG? I realize everyone will be different to some extent, but ive never been pulled up on it before.

 

[JanSz]

"SHBG is 36 nmol/L. LITTLE HIGH, USE CHRYSIN TO LOWER IT"

What is the optimal reference range for SHBG? I realize everyone will be different to some extent, but ive never been pulled up on it before.

You do not want to be low on SHBG, bad deal
From my lattest test at Quest
SHBG 20 (23-38) nmol/L
SHBG 24 (23-38) nmol/L
Yest, they screw it, tested twice.

Since, I have lighten up on supplements that down-regulate SHBG

Answer to your question,
SHBG=23 = ideal#

 

[JanSz]

The disparity is due to lab error. SHBG is not a very reliable assay in many cases.

I like SHBG to be mid-range.

The more I look at lab results the more problems I see.
Have you seen my (troublesome) findings on
Bio-Available Testosterone testing?
Any coments?

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/69037-age-associated-bio.html#post867990

 

[JanSz]

This is an excellent topic, and I'm glad you are following it.

First, all hormone testing must be done with LC/MS technology. RIA testing is frought with perils, including massive cross-reactivity. This is why the Total Estrogens assay is invalid, for instance--it may include Progesterone.

I spoke at length with the Lab Director for Quest Labs Nichols Institute a couple weeks ago. They now use LC/MS for BioT, but also the combination of two equations as previously described. This is about as good as we can get. Even better, though, is urine 24 hour, a TRUE "Free T".

So it is better to ask for

Free, Bioavailable, and Total Testosterone(LC/MS/MS)
Testosterone, LC/MS/MS from Quest Diagnostics
since
Free, Bioavailable, and Total Testosterone
may not be specific enough?????


The urine test, is it from Quest or Rhein Lab?

 

[JanSz]

Yes, you want the testosterone group from Quest Diagnostics.

I use Rhein for all my urinary hormone panels.

Thank you, that is nice clarification.
--------------------------------------------------------
Now, how to be more specific while asking for

Estradiol, Ultra-sensitive

people are reporting all kind of different ranges with this test.
I am assuming that any range that does not start with zero is acceptable, newer the less it is unsettling watching this going on.

Wonder if there is similar as with testosterone description that indicates request for specific technology to be used with particular test (LC/MS technology).