Suggestions, please

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    Suggestions, please


    I would appreciate your comments and suggestions regarding my current situation. I am 50 years old. 5' 11". 206# and I have been lifting weights almost daily since I was 17.

    Two months ago, here's where I was at: no energy, no stamina, no libido, decreasing strength, ED, slight depression, irritable, moody. I was as much fun to be around as Rosie O'Donnell with PMS.

    I found a doctor who specializes in all things hormonal and he ordered BW. Some of the results include:

    TT 522 (250-110)
    FT 57.3 (35-155)
    %FT 1.10 (0.9-2.5%)
    E2 36 (8-43)

    I don't have the other numbers with me but my thyroid was low and my growth hormone was "somewhat low".

    The doc asked what I wanted to do and I chose to start with armour thyroid and arimidex. The result was a noticeable improvement. Even though I feel better, my libido has gone from zero to so-so. ED is better but still a problem. Energy, stamina and strength are all good, not great.

    Last Monday, I went back for a follow-up and more BW. Next Monday I go back to discuss the results with my doc. This guy is pretty progressive and my guess is he will let me take these numbers up to the upper range if I so desire.

    Here is where I would appreciate the suggestions of the learned people on this forum: If I start exogenous test with HCG, and push these levels toward the "high normal" range, will the libido likely increase further and ED subside?

    Also, my doc mentioned I might try HCG alone in order to move the TT and FT up a bit. Does that sound like a reasonable next step or should I just go for test + HCG? Do you think the HCG alone would improve libido and ED?

    Thanks in advance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Undone View Post
    I would appreciate your comments and suggestions regarding my current situation. I am 50 years old. 5' 11". 206# and I have been lifting weights almost daily since I was 17.

    Two months ago, here's where I was at: no energy, no stamina, no libido, decreasing strength, ED, slight depression, irritable, moody. I was as much fun to be around as Rosie O'Donnell with PMS.

    I found a doctor who specializes in all things hormonal and he ordered BW. Some of the results include:

    TT 522 (250-110)
    FT 57.3 (35-155)
    %FT 1.10 (0.9-2.5%)
    E2 36 (8-43)

    I don't have the other numbers with me but my thyroid was low and my growth hormone was "somewhat low".

    The doc asked what I wanted to do and I chose to start with armour thyroid and arimidex. The result was a noticeable improvement. Even though I feel better, my libido has gone from zero to so-so. ED is better but still a problem. Energy, stamina and strength are all good, not great.

    Last Monday, I went back for a follow-up and more BW. Next Monday I go back to discuss the results with my doc. This guy is pretty progressive and my guess is he will let me take these numbers up to the upper range if I so desire.

    Here is where I would appreciate the suggestions of the learned people on this forum: If I start exogenous test with HCG, and push these levels toward the "high normal" range, will the libido likely increase further and ED subside?

    Also, my doc mentioned I might try HCG alone in order to move the TT and FT up a bit. Does that sound like a reasonable next step or should I just go for test + HCG? Do you think the HCG alone would improve libido and ED?

    Thanks in advance.
    You are lucky one with you doctor.
    Looks like hi is making right moves.
    Leave T supplementation for last, but try HCG.
    Start with really good blood test.
    The more information you have at hand the beter head start you have.
    I would not make libido and ED your first priority.
    First find out your numbers then make correction to as many as you can. More often than not you are going to get your libido back as a end result of this process.

    Do long blood test first, then smaller tests every month or three for a period of about two years, you should be a smooth sailing by then.

    Test vise detail, do it at Quest Diagnostics, draw blood at Quest. This is about Quality Control.
    Ask for (Free BioAvailable and Total testosterone).
    There are other tstosterone tests that are useless, even if they come from Quest.
    Do complete estrogen panel, not only E2 Ultra-Sensitive.
    I am 67 yo. I do complte testing once per year.
    You can see it there, as first post.
    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007
    But CBC w/ diff panel is missing this time, they screw me up on few items.

    Post your results here, we will discuss them.
    Good luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    You are lucky one with you doctor.
    Looks like hi is making right moves.
    Leave T supplementation for last, but try HCG.
    Start with really good blood test.
    The more information you have at hand the beter head start you have.
    I would not make libido and ED your first priority.
    First find out your numbers then make correction to as many as you can. More often than not you are going to get your libido back as a end result of this process.

    Do long blood test first, then smaller tests every month or three for a period of about two years, you should be a smooth sailing by then.

    Test vise detail, do it at Quest Diagnostics, draw blood at Quest. This is about Quality Control.
    Ask for (Free BioAvailable and Total testosterone).
    There are other tstosterone tests that are useless, even if they come from Quest.
    Do complete estrogen panel, not only E2 Ultra-Sensitive.
    I am 67 yo. I do complte testing once per year.
    You can see it there, as first post.
    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007
    But CBC w/ diff panel is missing this time, they screw me up on few items.

    Post your results here, we will discuss them.
    Good luck.
    Thanks for the suggestion. Is the HCG alone likely to raise the Testosterone levels that much?
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    If you're secondary yes. If you're primary no.

    I believe Dr. John has noted that some people don't note the best result on HCG alone; regardless of T levels. But he will also state that you never know until you try. Everyone is different.

    Check his Stickies on HCG and T protocols in the main window.


    Quote Originally Posted by Undone View Post
    Thanks for the suggestion. Is the HCG alone likely to raise the Testosterone levels that much?
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    Go with 250iu SQ HCG EOD. Research suggests that that is better than 250iu twice a week.

    Many report an improvement in mood with HCG. If you do TRT without, your testes will shrink and your scrotum may pull up tight.

    E2=36 is before or after arimidex? Many feel that 17-20 is optimal from a libido point of view. What is your arimidex dosing?

    You could try the HCG+AI and see how that goes, or the TRT+HCG+AI would really work well. You are paying for the consults and lab work for everything already. If you added injected testosterone, the added costs would be trivial. As more T is added, more AI is needed to maintain the balance of T:E.

    As you lower E, there can be an improvement in libido quite soon. For me the mental changes, mood, energy etc, took 3 months to fully develop. So get used to that time frame. The hormone changes affect the brain and your habits of thought take a while to re-wire and change. A positive and hopeful outlook through all of this while your brain and thought processes change might be of great value.

    As for TRT, you have a choice of transdermals (expensive) or injections (cheap). HCG needs to be injected. So using a transdermal to avoid injections while injecting HCG seems to lack rationality. Self injections are scary for some, but easy and if millions are doing this, you can too. More frequent injections are better for many than weekly. With injections every 2 or 3 days, the doses are small enough that insulin needles can be used. The 1/2" needles are long enough for IM injections when the injected amounts are small. One needs to have thin skin on the gluts to do this. If you need to loose weight for that, T might get you there in a few months then you can change to this method.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSman View Post
    Go with 250iu SQ HCG EOD. Research suggests that that is better than 250iu twice a week.

    Many report an improvement in mood with HCG. If you do TRT without, your testes will shrink and your scrotum may pull up tight.

    E2=36 is before or after arimidex? Many feel that 17-20 is optimal from a libido point of view. What is your arimidex dosing?

    You could try the HCG+AI and see how that goes, or the TRT+HCG+AI would really work well. You are paying for the consults and lab work for everything already. If you added injected testosterone, the added costs would be trivial. As more T is added, more AI is needed to maintain the balance of T:E.

    As you lower E, there can be an improvement in libido quite soon. For me the mental changes, mood, energy etc, took 3 months to fully develop. So get used to that time frame. The hormone changes affect the brain and your habits of thought take a while to re-wire and change. A positive and hopeful outlook through all of this while your brain and thought processes change might be of great value.

    As for TRT, you have a choice of transdermals (expensive) or injections (cheap). HCG needs to be injected. So using a transdermal to avoid injections while injecting HCG seems to lack rationality. Self injections are scary for some, but easy and if millions are doing this, you can too. More frequent injections are better for many than weekly. With injections every 2 or 3 days, the doses are small enough that insulin needles can be used. The 1/2" needles are long enough for IM injections when the injected amounts are small. One needs to have thin skin on the gluts to do this. If you need to loose weight for that, T might get you there in a few months then you can change to this method.

    Great post. I'll say it again, was this your E2 number before or after adex?

    Couple more things - You need to get Pregnenolone + DHEA cream. At your age I guarantee your DHEA levels are not optimal. This will affect alot. LEF says DHEA levels over 600 are ideal. It will also boost T and IGF-1 as well(you said you are low).

    Congrats on the DR I like what he has to say. :clean:
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Great post. I'll say it again, was this your E2 number before or after adex?

    Couple more things - You need to get Pregnenolone + DHEA cream. At your age I guarantee your DHEA levels are not optimal. This will affect alot. LEF says DHEA levels over 600 are ideal. It will also boost T and IGF-1 as well(you said you are low).

    Congrats on the DR I like what he has to say. :clean:
    Thanks for all the input. The e2 of 36 was before Adex. I will find out next Monday what the new number is. I am currently taking 1/2 mg twice per week.

    You are right.My DHEA was low so I started taking 25 mg per day. I am unfamiliar with the Pregnenolone + DHEA cream. I will take a look at it right away.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSman View Post
    Go with 250iu SQ HCG EOD. Research suggests that that is better than 250iu twice a week.

    Many report an improvement in mood with HCG. If you do TRT without, your testes will shrink and your scrotum may pull up tight.

    E2=36 is before or after arimidex? Many feel that 17-20 is optimal from a libido point of view. What is your arimidex dosing?

    You could try the HCG+AI and see how that goes, or the TRT+HCG+AI would really work well. You are paying for the consults and lab work for everything already. If you added injected testosterone, the added costs would be trivial. As more T is added, more AI is needed to maintain the balance of T:E.

    As you lower E, there can be an improvement in libido quite soon. For me the mental changes, mood, energy etc, took 3 months to fully develop. So get used to that time frame. The hormone changes affect the brain and your habits of thought take a while to re-wire and change. A positive and hopeful outlook through all of this while your brain and thought processes change might be of great value.

    As for TRT, you have a choice of transdermals (expensive) or injections (cheap). HCG needs to be injected. So using a transdermal to avoid injections while injecting HCG seems to lack rationality. Self injections are scary for some, but easy and if millions are doing this, you can too. More frequent injections are better for many than weekly. With injections every 2 or 3 days, the doses are small enough that insulin needles can be used. The 1/2" needles are long enough for IM injections when the injected amounts are small. One needs to have thin skin on the gluts to do this. If you need to loose weight for that, T might get you there in a few months then you can change to this method.
    That is good news. I thought after six weeks on the Adex I had maxed out the benefits, but if my experience is similar to yours, I may have a ways to go.

    One thing I did notice was an increas in libido after about two weeks and an improvement after that. Although the last week or so, it seems to have gone the other way.
    Also, the hair on my legs is starting to grow back. I take it that is a good indication that the Adex is doing what it is supposed to do.

    Thanks for the input on the injectibles. Approx what do you pay per month for the Test and the HCG (if you don't mind me asking)?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undone View Post
    That is good news. I thought after six weeks on the Adex I had maxed out the benefits, but if my experience is similar to yours, I may have a ways to go.

    One thing I did notice was an increas in libido after about two weeks and an improvement after that. Although the last week or so, it seems to have gone the other way.
    Also, the hair on my legs is starting to grow back. I take it that is a good indication that the Adex is doing what it is supposed to do.

    Thanks for the input on the injectables. Approx what do you pay per month for the Test and the HCG (if you don't mind me asking)?
    I pay for everything out of pocket, including blood work and consults. So I do watch prices.

    I get these from Sam's Club with a Business Membership. Will cost more without the BM.

    10,000 iu APP HCG $16.25, includes sterile water.
    10ml of 200mg/ml Watson's test cyp $42.xx
    100 3ml 1.5" #23 syringes $18.xx (do not use anymore)
    100 .5ml .5" #29 insulin syringes $12.62

    Note that the price of the insulin syringes is available at Sam's or WalMart, no memberships required.

    I get scripts for arimidex from my doc, but get anastrozole from alternate sources for $50/year at 1mg/wk.

    I do my doctor's ordered blood work by ordering what is needed from LEF.org. This saves me major amounts of money. With doctor visits in April/May and 6 months after, I can get the blood work on sail for use in the spring and after that visit, order the blood work for the fall while it is still on sale.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSman View Post
    I pay for everything out of pocket, including blood work and consults. So I do watch prices.

    I get these from Sam's Club with a Business Membership. Will cost more without the BM.

    10,000 iu APP HCG $16.25, includes sterile water.
    10ml of 200mg/ml Watson's test cyp $42.xx
    100 3ml 1.5" #23 syringes $18.xx (do not use anymore)
    100 .5ml .5" #29 insulin syringes $12.62

    Note that the price of the insulin syringes is available at Sam's or WalMart, no memberships required.

    I get scripts for arimidex from my doc, but get anastrozole from alternate sources for $50/year at 1mg/wk.

    I do my doctor's ordered blood work by ordering what is needed from LEF.org. This saves me major amounts of money. With doctor visits in April/May and 6 months after, I can get the blood work on sail for use in the spring and after that visit, order the blood work for the fall while it is still on sale.
    That works out to less than $70 per month. Less than most people spend at Starbuck's. Amazing. Thanks for sharing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undone View Post
    Thanks for all the input. The e2 of 36 was before Adex. I will find out next Monday what the new number is. I am currently taking 1/2 mg twice per week.

    You are right.My DHEA was low so I started taking 25 mg per day. I am unfamiliar with the Pregnenolone + DHEA cream. I will take a look at it right away.
    Ask your DR to write you a script for it than you can get it at a compounding pharmacy, pretty cheap as well.

    EDITED BY DR CRISLER: WE ONLY DISCUSS LEGAL TOPICS HERE.
    Last edited by Dr. John; 06-08-2007 at 06:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Make sure you are having the ultrasensitive Estradiol assay. And rely on Bioavailable T levels.
    i had that ultrasesntive estrodial essay done and it came out to be <2 and range less <29 and My lab reports specifically came out "estrodial, ultrasenitive essay lc/ms/ms". Dr looked at the results and I notice the reference range that I did not ever see before. Usual is (10-50) or my new one was 13-54 for males. Suspecting it was low dr pulled me off armidex and things did not feel right all high e symtpoms came back. i retested 3 weeks later with estrodial senstive essay (13-54) my e2 came back 73. As other people pointed out they noticed my mental clarity was not good as well as joint pain and tits were killing me, no libido, constipation from hell, wanted to sleep all the time. So i went back on armidesx and will retest in 3-4 weeks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    i had that ultrasesntive estrodial essay done and it came out to be <2 and range less <29 and My lab reports specifically came out "estrodial, ultrasenitive essay lc/ms/ms". Dr looked at the results and I notice the reference range that I did not ever see before. Usual is (10-50) or my new one was 13-54 for males. Suspecting it was low dr pulled me off armidex and things did not feel right all high e symtpoms came back. i retested 3 weeks later with estrodial senstive essay (13-54) my e2 came back 73. As other people pointed out they noticed my mental clarity was not good as well as joint pain and tits were killing me, no libido, constipation from hell, wanted to sleep all the time. So i went back on armidesx and will retest in 3-4 weeks.
    I think the point that hardasnails was wanting to make is that he does not trust the ultrasensitive estradiol essay at all or the test was botched. So once burned; twice shy.

    What was your regular E2 test result prior to all of this?

    Why do we need a ultra sensitive estradiol essay at all? Perhaps we need to know what the advantages are compared to the regular testing methods. I guess its not just Doctors who can be resistant to change.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSman View Post
    I think the point that hardasnails was wanting to make is that he does not trust the ultrasensitive estradiol essay at all or the test was botched. So once burned; twice shy.

    What was your regular E2 test result prior to all of this?

    Why do we need a ultra sensitive estradiol essay at all? Perhaps we need to know what the advantages are compared to the regular testing methods. I guess its not just Doctors who can be resistant to change.
    it was more so the reference range was not the proper one and this test was used for post menopasal women not males. Several other people i talked to also happen, With a refernce range of <29 and given that all result are not a specific number like 15, 6 , ect its given as <4.<15 , so it does not give you a specific number like the normal range of (13-54) i just asked for plan estrodial test and i called quest to make sure that it had a range of 10-50 or so and it did. When they run the test male is already designated so it shows the ranges specific to gender.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Ask your DR to write you a script for it than you can get it at a compounding pharmacy, pretty cheap as well.

    EDITED BY DR CRISLER: WE ONLY DISCUSS LEGAL TOPICS HERE.
    I know of places to get DHEA and pregnenolone cream legally, as of June 2007 they are both still classified as legal prohormones
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    I know of places to get DHEA and pregnenolone cream legally, as of June 2007 they are both still classified as legal prohormones
    I thought if the MD would write a script it was all legal. At least thats what Sylvester Stallone said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    I know of places to get DHEA and pregnenolone cream legally, as of June 2007 they are both still classified as legal prohormones
    I am using pregnenolone cream. Compounded 100mg/1gram.
    I am using 1gream/day.
    I need prescription to get this cream.

    Does one need prescription for DHEA cream?

    I am not sure why, pills of pregnenolone or DHEA we can buy over the counter, why it is different with creams?

    My guess it have to do with a strenght of compound.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I am using pregnenolone cream. Compounded 100mg/1gram.
    I am using 1gream/day.
    I need prescription to get this cream.

    Does one need prescription for DHEA cream?

    I am not sure why, pills of pregnenolone or DHEA we can buy over the counter, why it is different with creams?

    My guess it have to do with a strenght of compound.
    The powers that be consider transdermal to be a drug delivery [system] even if the active ingredient is available as an dietary supplement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I am using pregnenolone cream. Compounded 100mg/1gram.
    I am using 1gream/day.
    I need prescription to get this cream.

    Does one need prescription for DHEA cream?

    I am not sure why, pills of pregnenolone or DHEA we can buy over the counter, why it is different with creams?

    My guess it have to do with a strenght of compound.
    One does not need a script for preg or dhea cream, all are legal.

    It is more expensive to do because using ingredients that allow for TD use are pricey. This is why supp companies don't use as TD. More cheaper in pill form, albiet about a million times less effective.

    However, some supp companies have decided the extra cost is worth it. However, its cheapest if you can just get a script.
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    UPDATE:

    Saw my doctor yesterday. My TT moved up to 719 (250-1100), FT 71 (35-155), and E2 moved down from 36 to 24 (8-43).

    I should have mentioned that the doctor ordered the full gamet for blood test on my previous appointment. In fact the woman drawing blood said she had never seen so many things checked off on the list. He is very thorough.

    Obviously the Arimidex is working judging by the way I feel and the E2 numbers. I was leaning toward just going with the HCG for further improvement. He told me I could if I wanted to, but given my LH numbers, the increase in test and improvement would probably be minimal.

    His recommendation was exogenous test to start and perhaps HCG afterward if I felt I needed or wanted it.

    What do you guys think?

    I should add the doctor is on TRT himself. He uses the pellets.
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    Where do you get arimidex for that cheap since it's $9 a tablet? Can you PM me please as I'm needing to start it. I am a diabetic and have tons of needles saved up already.

    Thanks for listing this, I am switching to sams club pharmacy also since I have a business membership. They are way cheaper. Way easier to pay out of pocket than deal with the small savings in insurance for me. Don't want to fight with the dr to get him to prescribe something.

    Quote Originally Posted by KSman View Post
    I pay for everything out of pocket, including blood work and consults. So I do watch prices.

    I get these from Sam's Club with a Business Membership. Will cost more without the BM.

    10,000 iu APP HCG $16.25, includes sterile water.
    10ml of 200mg/ml Watson's test cyp $42.xx
    100 3ml 1.5" #23 syringes $18.xx (do not use anymore)
    100 .5ml .5" #29 insulin syringes $12.62

    Note that the price of the insulin syringes is available at Sam's or WalMart, no memberships required.

    I get scripts for arimidex from my doc, but get anastrozole from alternate sources for $50/year at 1mg/wk.

    I do my doctor's ordered blood work by ordering what is needed from LEF.org. This saves me major amounts of money. With doctor visits in April/May and 6 months after, I can get the blood work on sail for use in the spring and after that visit, order the blood work for the fall while it is still on sale.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undone View Post
    UPDATE:

    Saw my doctor yesterday. My TT moved up to 719 (250-1100), FT 71 (35-155), and E2 moved down from 36 to 24 (8-43).

    I should have mentioned that the doctor ordered the full gamet for blood test on my previous appointment. In fact the woman drawing blood said she had never seen so many things checked off on the list. He is very thorough.

    Obviously the Arimidex is working judging by the way I feel and the E2 numbers. I was leaning toward just going with the HCG for further improvement. He told me I could if I wanted to, but given my LH numbers, the increase in test and improvement would probably be minimal.

    His recommendation was exogenous test to start and perhaps HCG afterward if I felt I needed or wanted it.

    What do you guys think?

    I should add the doctor is on TRT himself. He uses the pellets.
    Post your complete blood test, laboratory that did it, units, ranges.
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