New member!Information and question
- 06-06-2007, 08:49 AM
New member!Information and question
Hi!This forum is great!I'm from Italy,in this state there is a totally disinformation about testosterone replacement therapy...very bad for me!
This is my story,thanks for comments and reply
I'm 22 years old,at the age of 20 I was about 165 pounds and 5'5'', bf 16%
I travel in Barcelona for 8 days and I have an intossication(from contaminated fish and vegetables)
AST,ALT and bilirubin were too high...I lost about 10 pounds,after 2 mounths blood works was ok.But I was tired everydays.
Here,doctors are all terrible...after one year I measured Hormone levels:
TT 450 (300-1100)
Thyroid panel is ok
After 3 mounths the values are:
TT 310 (300-1100)
After 5 mounts:
TT 130 (300-1100)
TF 6 (14-32)
HGH 0,3 (0,1-5)
Hematocrit(39),Haemoglobin(13, 8),RBC(3,8),WBC(4,1),PLT(139)a re low,but ferritin are normal
Thyroid is ok,as well as cortisol,prolactin,progesteron e,aldosterone
I lost weight:I was 130lbs!bf 15%!
I consult an endo,diagnosis:Anticorpi anti ipofisi
Ipofisi not response on test LH-RH
Therapy:Androgel 1 packet a day
After 8 weeks my values are:
TT 305 (300-1100)
TF 9 (14-32)
DHT 0,4 (0,2-2,6)
IGF-1 160 (180-590)
HGH 0,3 (0,1-5)
Feel very bad...but my endo said that is ok.Androgel incrased my bf more than lbm
Then,I suspend therapy,actually I have frustrated.
I read a lot of study about TRT and I consult another endo.
He is very good.
Put me 125mg enanthate and 1cpr proviron a day.
I have a very low test(baseline 130). 125mg test can elevated my test at 700-800?
I read on pubmed this:
Total testosterone (testosterone dose (mg): 125 mg/week):
Test levels (baseline): 387+-36 ng/dl
Test levels (at week 16): 852+-111 ng/dl
Change from baseline: +464+-104 ng/dl
My test 190 + 464 = 594
- 06-06-2007, 10:16 AM
do not use proviron
increase your testosterone dose so you will get either your FreeT or BioAvailableT at the top range.
Your weekly dose will be 100-150mg
but do injections every two or three days.
Best do your do T injections subQ every other day, and on the same day use
HCG, Novarel, 250iu
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250 HCG twice a week
Integrative Management of Erectile Dysfunction
Le Magazine, October 2005 - Case History: Integrative Management Of Erectile Dysfunction
E3D dose = 0.5/7*3=0.214mL=0.214cc=21marks on insuline syringe, '=0.21/3*7*200=98
E2D dose = 0.5/7*2=0.143mL=0.143cc=14marks on insuline syringe, '=0.14/2*7*200=98
Do good Estrogen tests
Estradiol, Fractionated, serum
Estrogens, Total, Serum
make sure about the (Ultra-sensitive), it should be (10-30), I have 27 when feeling good.
Get adrenals and Thyroid tested
FreeT3, FreeT4 most important, specially FreeT3
Get good long blood test.
Similar to mine here on first post:
Jan's BloodTest April13/2007
Make sure you got
CBC w/ diff
Retype your test results on a spreadsheed and attach to message, so we can see it here.
Post questions about your health on this thread only, so everything stays in one place.
I consult an endo,diagnosis:Anticorpi anti ipofisi
Ipofisi not response on test LH-RH
ipofisi (or pituitaria gland)
pituitary gland antibody
Translated version of http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipofisi
Your blood does not look good, post (in table format) more info on your blood, hopefully cpeil2 will address your problem, and help you with corrective actions.
AIDSmeds.com - Complete Blood Count (CBC) Test
- 06-06-2007, 10:50 AM
My endo said that RBC,haemoglobin and hematocrit return in the range after 4 weeks with testosterone.
Actually,liver panel,kidney panel,Thyroid panel and metabolic panel are all ok...tomorrow I write the values---
In my state I can't buy testosterone cypionate,but only enanthate.
I buy testoviron 250mg and I injected half of this every week
My endo prescribe proviron for estrogen...
06-06-2007, 11:07 AM
Just stay on proper dose of T and give it time to work its way thru.
Make sure you supply your body frequently with testosterone.
Extending time between shots usualy does not work.
Use small insuline needle 28 or even 29ga, be patient when filling in the syringe. Over all it will save you time to recovery.
Test your BioAvailable and FreeT levels frequently, 4-6 weeks, to find out correct dose plus correct for body adjusting it self.
Do not overlook the rest of the problem, pituitary, adrenals, thyroid etc.
In Italy is made a product called Ipertrophan.
Supposedly it is excellent for management of estrogen and (I think DHT). We cannot get it in USA.
Since it is in your backyard get advantage of it.
Please report results.
Brand Ipertrofan® 40 / Iperplasin® 40
Active Principle Mepartricin
Indication Treatment of benign prostatic hyperplasia. Once a day administration
Presentations 40 mg x 30 tablets
06-06-2007, 01:09 PM
06-06-2007, 02:27 PM
You are right, proviron is an effective anti-estrogen, but you don't know if you need an anti-estrogen. You need to continually monitor your E2 level, just as you do your T level.
You should only be using an anti-e if your lab results and symptoms indicate that your E2 is too high. At this point, you don't have that information.
06-06-2007, 04:19 PM
The test ethanate is fine.
Proviron will increase free T and provide a nice libido boost, which is also important.
Check E2 levels, these will go up. Best to use an aromatase inhibitor to reduce E2 levels. 17-20 is thought to be optimal from a libido point of view.
The TRT will shut down the HPTA. So there is no point in doing LH or FST tests. It appears that your body was producing less and less LH and FST already. So perhaps the testicles are able and need HCG. You need the HCG to keep the testes from shrinking and the scrotum from pulling up tight. And also to maintain fertility. Many also report an improvement in mood with HCG. HCG is shipped dry and you add water to it. After that it must be refrigerated. Inject under the skin (SQ/SC) into belly fat, just like insulin.
The pituitary may be damaged, which would explain the low LH and T, as well as GH. A scan of the pituitary would be a good idea. This is reinforced by the fact that LHRH did not work. The pituitary cannot be repaired, but it would be good to know if a tumor is the cause. Another common cause is a blow to the head from a traffic accident etc. Any think like that in the last few years?
HCG might add 140-200 points to your TT.
HCG 250iu SQ EOD
1mg/wk of arimidex
With the above you might end up closer to 100mg/wk of test ethanate, inject every 2 or 3 days, adjust as needed.
Test for IGF-1, not HGH, HGH lab results are sort of useless. Unless one can get and afford HGH, continued testing of these things is sort of silly.
06-07-2007, 08:45 AM
I have Autoimmune Syndromes,not tumors.In my blood there are pituitary gland antibodies
My doctor said that in my situation HCG not work...I don't understanding this...
I start TRT next mounth,I have 20 packets of Androgel and I use this for next 20 days.
Test injection can up igf 1 level and gh level?When I can tested results?
06-07-2007, 11:06 AM
Two pockets were only slightly too much for me, actually they were just about right.
On 2 packets Total T=932ng/dL(241-827)
That was on LabCorp Test.
Quest Diagnostics, that I currently prefer have TT(250-1100)
Be real careful when putting Androgel on, it is very thin gel.
I was spilling out a lot before I realised.
Do it over hard floor not a carpet, so you see how you are doing.
06-07-2007, 11:43 AM
So HCG IS what you need. It does not fix the pituitary, but keeps the testes functional.
If the pituitary is under attack, then you will need to monitor and replace HG, thyroid and maybe others.
In normal men, TRT often improves many other functional systems, including HG which controls IGF-1 levels. In your case, your pituitary gland is not working normally, so ones expectations of improvement in HG levels should be modest.
Did you post your thyroid status?
06-07-2007, 12:58 PM
TSH 2,2 (0,3-5)
FT4 1,3 (0,9-1,8)
FT3 2,4 (2-4,2)
06-07-2007, 01:11 PM
06-07-2007, 03:44 PM
Make sure it is exactly Armour Thyroid and nothing else.
Be carefull ramping up. Keep monthly supply, so you can ramp down in case you cannot get it anymore.
Possibly support your adrenals if only during ramp up period.
Lower range is 2.3 not a 2.0.
Free (T3) 2.4 pg/mL (2.3-4.2)
3.820 <--FT3 start of upper 20%
3.725 <--FT3 start of upper 25%
3.567 <--FT3 start of upper 33%
3.250 <--FT3 start of upper 50%
94.74 <--your current 2.4 puts you %% from the top =100-(2.4-2.3)/(4.2-2.3)*100
06-07-2007, 04:02 PM
06-07-2007, 04:18 PM
Latter I found that 4 grains was too much, dropped to 3grains.
One can use Cortef up to 20mg/day and that would not shut down own production.
06-08-2007, 08:37 AM
Sorry!!! error data!
FT3 is 3,4! I'm sorry
Cortisol 16 (5-22)
Prolactin 9,9 (2,2-17,7)
My doctor think that I have only the low test.This cause low hematocrit,haemoglobin ad RBC and I'm tired and lost a lot of muscle and I lost 30% of bone densite mineral.
Doctor believe that with TRT all return normally
It's incredible,but I have good libido and I have sex once-twice a week.But for my age this isn't good...
06-08-2007, 10:54 AM
hey bimbo....we is twins..
what ever the hell all that means
06-08-2007, 02:57 PM
TSH is whatever, I wouldn't worry about that number.
Your Free T3 is fine, your thyroid is perfectly fine no worries.
Take Selenium every morning with breakfast and use seasalts with food your good to go. Get that prolactin issue addressed.
06-09-2007, 07:22 AM
after shot,when I tested results?
for exampleshot every week)
day 1 shot---day 2 and day 6 bloodwork?
06-09-2007, 09:53 AM
to get trough day of the injection but do not take injection first
After 5 weeks its pretty much reaches steady state and really does not matter when. But if you are at 900 ng/dl by 5-6 day you will be coming down by about 1/3 so that puts you at 600 at your lowest point. Alot of guys always wait intill the day of the shot to take blood work when they are at the lowset in order the dr to give them more. Personally I would want to get a peak or trough or more likely a mid point
06-09-2007, 10:15 AM
Well,if I have about 600ng/dl at day 5 or 6 is ok?
and if I have 400 in this days?up the dosage?
06-09-2007, 11:16 AM
06-09-2007, 11:42 AM
this is whats frustrating....my GP OF course says PROLACTIN is fine....obviously it isnt......I HOPE MY UROLOGIST ADDRESSES ALL HORMONES.....
i have slight gyno on left breast, which i bet is due to prolactin
what else does high prolactin cause? symptoms?
you say selenium will help with this??
im going to have to find solid research and data to show doctors......i mean the high normal is 18ug....but LEF recommends under 5..... going to have to convince some DR's
06-09-2007, 12:25 PM
In my experience,in past I have 18,9 prolactin level,my bf was 18%,after 3 mounths I lost weight and my bf was 13% and prolactin was 9,9.
If I understand:
It's more good for example 600ng/dl TT and E2=20 than 1000ng/dl TT and E2=50?
There are some graphics that describe the testosterone curve after injection of 125mg test enanthate?
My english is terrible!sorry..
06-09-2007, 03:41 PM
06-09-2007, 07:42 PM
06-10-2007, 09:39 AM
In my situation(In my blood there are pituitary gland antibodies,I have Autoimmune Syndromes and My pituitary gland non response at test GnRH)
Can I use also HCG?
My doctor said that HCG not work in my situation,but I want that my testicles are good...sorry I'm italian..
06-10-2007, 11:11 AM
1a. 250iu HCG every other day, so you produce your own testosterone (if you can) and that your testicle stay in shape.
1b. Add enough external Testosterone that when you do blood test it shows either
on the top of their range, leave the other where it falls.
2. Deal with Estrogen (comprehensively) when/ if you have to.
a. Watch your 2/16 estrone rato, use DIM, I3c, TMG and other. I use LEF product, 6 pills/day of DualAction and 2 pills/day of TMG
b. Keep E2(ultra-sensitive) (10-30), if over use Arimidex or LiquiDex. I found that I need my E2=27, others are more happy with E2~20
Important is frequent testing, at least at the beginning when you working at establishing proper doses.
Prolactin is a separate issue that you must keep eye on.
06-10-2007, 12:40 PM
There are 4 possibilities:
1- Your testes will not respond to HCG. HCG then not needed.
2- Your testes will respond to HCG and HCG will help the testes produce T
3- Your Doctor is wrong
4- You did not quite understand your Doctor or he was telling you that HCG would not help your pituitary gland [correct].
You might have to tell your Doctor that you want to use HCG for the improvement in mood and for the health and T contribution of your testicles. This has to be a separate issue outside of the of the health of the pituitary.
Do you understand how HCG is injected and that you obtain the drug dry and then add water, then it must be kept refrigerated?
Proviron: This will help your libido and recovery. A great addition to your TRT. It will lessen the effects of E2 and increase FT. But you should probably be testing E2 as well and reducing to the low towards17-20 pg/ml. Proviron binds to SHBG so that less T is bound to the SHBG. But E2 levels may not be reduced and these E2 levels may have other unwanted effects. It will be best to actively control E2 levels with an AI such as anastrozole/arimidex. The E2 levels are probably fueling other hormone imbalances such as prolactin and progesterone.
06-10-2007, 03:18 PM
thanks so much for reply!!
My testicles are ok!!
I think use Hcg!
I have some questions:
1)TRT is 125mg test E every 7 days,when inject hcg?in Italy there is GONASI HP 250UI,500UI.1000UI,2000UI,5000 UI.
2)What is the life of hcg?
06-10-2007, 03:48 PM
You want HCG in multi-dose vials, not in glass ampules.
Inject HCG into fat under the skin, not into muscle. When you read about injecting into muscles, that applies to women using very large doses to trigger ovulation.
06-10-2007, 04:25 PM
Do every three days Testosterone injections or even every other day, but recalculate the dose so you do not take more or less on weekly basis.
Most likely using 5000IU vials or 2000IU will be ok.
I see 5000iu right here:
HCG Gonasi - buy HCG online
If you choose every other day injections, then you could do them both (T+HCG) on one day and have the other day free of injections.
125mg of test per week when injected every other day mean
I cannot tell you the volume or marks on syringe since I do not know density of your test.
06-11-2007, 12:41 AM
06-11-2007, 09:27 AM
In my state there is only sustanon 250mg or testoviron 250mg,1ml solution.I can't split may time...
Therefore,hcg injected only under the skin?why?
and why 2000ui?I read on hcgupdate document max 500ui
06-11-2007, 10:05 AM
If he have no other choice then the smaller portion the better.
the 2000iu refer to total content of the vial or ampule.
When you are doing shots every other day the size of shot is 250IU
When you decide to do shots every day, then the size of the shot is 100IU
You want to purchase HCG that is packaged in vials (not ampules).
Vials are usually ment to be used completely at the time they are broken.
Since you need only 250IU, you would have to throw out lots of good product.
Well, you can transfer content of open ampule to the vial, but it gets complicated and quality of product would possibly degrade.
I am not familiar with sustanon 250mg or testoviron, somebody else may want to coment on that.
We usually use Depo®-Testosterone
testosterone cypionate, 200mg/mL
Some people mention testosterone enanthate
not sure if that is good idea ether.
06-11-2007, 10:31 AM
in my state there is GONASI HP 250UI 1ml,I don't need split dosage...but I don't now if this is in vial or ampule...
I injected under the skin?where?
06-11-2007, 11:37 AM
HCG is injected the same way that insulin is injected. Use an insulin syringe. You can use the smallest gauge that you can find.
It would be better to have vials, not ampules. The amps are all glass and when you crack these open, you need to mix and then store all of it in syringes then keep the syringes in a refrigerator. With a vial, you mix and keep in the refrigerator, then load into syringes as needed.
I use 10,000 iu vials of HCG.
06-11-2007, 11:47 AM
Think of it as TRT as building a house. Would you want to start building the house before the foundation has been set and have things fall apart. Things need to be layers with one change at the time. People are notorious for looking for short cuts, but the problem is short cuts are only tempeory but consistency and slight moderation are better for the long haul..
06-11-2007, 12:02 PM
I am afraid it will be much more expensive that way.
Use the thinnest insuline needle available.
Use donut shape to find out suitable injection site, concentric radius of 1.5" and 3.5" circles with a center at your navel.,
06-11-2007, 12:30 PM
Also can I injecting hcg in the forearm?
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