Dr John, experts - urgently need your help, please review bloodtests - AnabolicMinds.com

Dr John, experts - urgently need your help, please review bloodtests

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    Dr John, experts - urgently need your help, please review bloodtests


    Hi,

    I posted this over at MesoRX but I need as much expert opinion as I can get, hence my request for Dr. John's and your expert opinions.

    Attached are my tests and comparisons over the past year and a half. I'm sure you can see some of the issues as they are flagged and you can see the downward trend in differentials/increase in hematology/CBC panel.

    My story is in the thread "Help me please -- Finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high E " on MesoRX, men's health forum. RECAP: I took Finasteride for 11 months and its been 19 months since I quit. I experienced many side effects on the drug -- loss of libido, ED, loss of morning/nocturnal/spontaneous erections, penile/scrotum shrinkage, genital numbness/rubbery penis, brain fog etc.

    Since I quit the brain fog has cleared but the sexual problems remain, I have not recovered at all to the way I was before the drug. I have gotten bloodtests 3 times. When I came off the drug, I recovered after 2 weeks but then my system crashed and my T levels went into the toilet. 3 months off my T was 12.8 (range: 8.4 - 28.7), then 8 months later climbed to 17.3. LH/FSH were low, E2 high.

    I just got tested this May, a year after my last tests and there are some bad things happening, particularly with regards to my Hematology panel and extremely elevated Pregnenolone result (out of range).

    I am wondering if Dr. John has seen this before (elevated RBC, Hematocrit, Hemoglobin, decreased WBC and differentials, high Pregnenolone) and what this might mean. I plan on getting retested and seeing a Hematologist but I am trying to get as much info as I can on what these results might mean.

    The lab suggested dehydration or chronic hypoxia but I am concerned it could be something more sinister like leukemia, anemia, polycythemia or some issue with the spleen, bone marrow, cancer... perhaps the elevated Pregnenolone be due to high Cholesterol (since Preg comes directly after Cholesterol in the steroid pathway)? Has anyone seen these types of results before?

    I don't have HIV (got tested 2 months prior to these tests), I'm not taking iron supplements and I wasn't dehydrated the day I took my latest tests. I do have to piss a lot and am always thirsty though. I am concerned that somehow when Finasteride crashed my system after quitting, my body is now slowly starting to fall apart at this point due to the damage the drug did to my HTPA/endocrine system...

    Anyway any insight appreciated, many thanks in advance.
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    Cancer usually causes a rise in lymphocytes not a drop.

    Not even a doctor would be able to tell you a reason without running furthur tests, but because your RBC is up, I would haveto guess its a mineral imbalance. Are you taking any suppliments?
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    The only supplement I had been taking (which I stopped a week before these tests) was a multivitamin (no iron) that also contained Ginkgo Biloba (perhaps that could be why the Platelet count dropped? GB is a blood thinner, helps with circulation?). With a multivitamin, how could it be a mineral imbalance? I wasn't ill the day of the tests, either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by madclown View Post
    The only supplement I had been taking (which I stopped a week before these tests) was a multivitamin (no iron) that also contained Ginkgo Biloba (perhaps that could be why the Platelet count dropped? GB is a blood thinner, helps with circulation?). With a multivitamin, how could it be a mineral imbalance? I wasn't ill the day of the tests, either.
    Because the vitamin / mineral in 90% of vitamins are bioavailable to the body

    need 3000 mgs of mgesium oxide to = 150-200 mgs of elemental mag provided stomach acids are optimal
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsHectic View Post
    Cancer usually causes a rise in lymphocytes not a drop.

    Not even a doctor would be able to tell you a reason without running furthur tests, but because your RBC is up, I would haveto guess its a mineral imbalance. Are you taking any suppliments?
    On my list I have these, what other would you suggest?

    1 Calcium 8.5-10.4 mg/dL
    2 Carbon dioxide 21-33 nmol/L
    3 Chloride 21-33 nmol/L
    4 Copper, serum 590-1180 mcg/L
    5 Ferritin 20-380 ng/mL
    6 Magnesium 1.50-2.50 mg/dL
    7 Potasium 3.5-5.3 nmol/L
    8 Selenium 110-160 mcg/L
    9 Sodium 135-146 nmol/L
    10 Zinc 670-1240 mcg/L
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    Quote Originally Posted by madclown View Post
    The only supplement I had been taking (which I stopped a week before these tests) was a multivitamin (no iron) that also contained Ginkgo Biloba (perhaps that could be why the Platelet count dropped? GB is a blood thinner, helps with circulation?). With a multivitamin, how could it be a mineral imbalance? I wasn't ill the day of the tests, either.
    Try to increase your intake of Zinc and magnesium (ZMA) and take calcium/milk seperate to it. So maybe calcium in the morning and afternoon and then ZMA at night, this should help lower your RBC. And if your problem is high phosphorus(causes low WBC) then it can sort that out aswell.

    Ginkgo shouldnt actually lower your platelet count on a blood test.
    Did your multivitamin contain any vitamin K? I have heard vitamin K can be used to raise platelet count.
    Last edited by ItsHectic; 06-01-2007 at 09:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    On my list I have these, what other would you suggest?

    1 Calcium 8.5-10.4 mg/dL
    2 Carbon dioxide 21-33 nmol/L
    3 Chloride 21-33 nmol/L
    4 Copper, serum 590-1180 mcg/L
    5 Ferritin 20-380 ng/mL
    6 Magnesium 1.50-2.50 mg/dL
    7 Potasium 3.5-5.3 nmol/L
    8 Selenium 110-160 mcg/L
    9 Sodium 135-146 nmol/L
    10 Zinc 670-1240 mcg/L
    Fluoride (one off)
    manganese

    But if you can get anything you want tested, I would get every mineral tested that is on acu-cell.com just as a one off test, and then continue to monitor anything that is close to the edge of the range.
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    Quote Originally Posted by madclown View Post
    I am wondering if Dr. John has seen this before (elevated RBC, Hematocrit, Hemoglobin, decreased WBC and differentials, high Pregnenolone) and what this might mean. I plan on getting retested and seeing a Hematologist but I am trying to get as much info as I can on what these results might mean.
    Don't plan on it. Do it.

    Secondly consider being tested for hemachromatosis as a carrier or the actual condition. Check for iron saturation and ferritin.

    Test for the other sinister stuff that you are concerned about too. Peace of mind and/or at least early detection are both priceless.

    I repeat get an endo or hema scheduled ASAP so as not to make yourself anxious with self diagnosing and virtual diagnosis. Don't sit around trying figure this out on your own or on line.

    Good luck. Please keep us updated.
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    good advice... hope he gets in quicker than I, i have till OCTObEr....

    phats
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    Tamoxifen
    Adverse effects include menopausal symptoms (eg, hot flushes and atrophic vaginitis), irregular menses, ocular toxicity (cataracts), thromboembolic events, thrombocytopenia or leukopenia, and endometrial cancer or hyperplasia and ovarian cysts.
    Log In Problems

    "Rash is the most common side effect of anastrazole. Less common side effects include:

    hot flashes
    headache, light-headedness, dizziness, confusion
    depression, insomnia, anxiety
    chest pain, high blood pressure, obstruction of blood vessels
    nausea and vomiting, diarrhea, constipation, abdominal pain
    dry mouth, altered taste, appetite loss
    vaginal bleeding, vulvar itching
    hair thinning
    bone pain, tumor pain, weakness, muscle aches
    cough, sinusitis
    abnormally low red blood cell levels (anemia)
    abnormally low white blood cell counts (leukopenia)"
    aromatase inhibitor: Information from Answers.com
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    Thanks for the info BS5150, but I never took Tamoxifen... the only drug I've ever taken in my life is Finasteride.

    I have an appointment with my doc this Monday (in 2 days) to ask for a retest of the CBC panel and some additional tests, plus a referral to a Hematologist.

    If he refuses I will see another doctor to get this. I believe time is of the essence here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by madclown View Post
    Thanks for the info BS5150, but I never took Tamoxifen... the only drug I've ever taken in my life is Finasteride.

    I have an appointment with my doc this Monday (in 2 days) to ask for a retest of the CBC panel and some additional tests, plus a referral to a Hematologist.

    If he refuses I will see another doctor to get this. I believe time is of the essence here.
    Jeeze, I just realized you were using Finasteride and not Fina (as in Trenbolone) and then assumed SERM use post cycle therapy. I read your post last night and mis-reatined it in my head as Fina. My bad.

    Keep us posted. Good luck.
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    As your T levels recover over time we also see in increase in hematocrit. Some guys react that way on TRT as their T increases. Some have to do blood donations or just get drained.

    I did not see a test for serum iron. Many guys have a problem with high iron.

    Your DHT is quite high. That may be repressive to the HPTA and keeping T levels down.
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    KSman, funny that you say that high DHT could repress T, as it has been one of my theories to try and figure out what is happening...

    Essentially when I came off the drug, I felt a flood of DHT return 2 weeks after my last pill. All my symptoms were gone and I returned back to my old self, pre-Fin. But this feeling of DHT coursing through my veins only lasted about 5 days, then slowly started fading away and then my symptoms started coming back -- particularly loss of libido, shrinkage and ED. I also believe high E2 had something to do with this as I had the beginnings of Gyno towards my last months on the drug.

    After that initial recovery period, over the next 3 months I began to feel like complete **** and things were WORSE off then when I was ON the drug in the sex department. I did some research and suspected Secondary Hypogonadism. I got my first blood test and sure enough i had low T (couldnt get the other tests -- LH, FSH, E2 etc -- cuz doc wouldnt give them at the time).

    So what if that flood of DHT (I quit cold turkey) coupled with the high E2 (which has since come down quite a bit over the past 20 months) somehow screwed my HTPA and told it to lower T output, since there was so much DHT in the blood? But at the same time, why is my penis/scrotum shrunk if I have high DHT, decent Free/Bio T and a mid-range T level (which could stand to be higher)?

    Also -- what is a normal DHT level, do you have any studies showing high DHT can inhibit the HTPA/LH/FSH/T production etc... and what is the solution if its too high besides 5AR inhibitors? I dont dare want to take Finasteride again to lower it, taking it is what got me in this mess in the first place! I know there's SawPalmetto, Nettles, Pygmeum... but since I'm already experiencing ED and no libido I don't know if these will cause further problems in that area.

    As for the CBC -- I will ask for serum Iron, ferritin, renin and a bunch of other tests recommended here and elsewhere. Thanks again.

    PS: The main things I see as problems in my latest labs besides CBC is elevated Pregnenolone, high Prolactin, high Albumin, highish Cortisol and possibly the high DHT...
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSman View Post
    As your T levels recover over time we also see in increase in hematocrit. Some guys react that way on TRT as their T increases. Some have to do blood donations or just get drained.

    I did not see a test for serum iron. Many guys have a problem with high iron.

    Your DHT is quite high. That may be repressive to the HPTA and keeping T levels down.
    Is it a balancing act between RBC and WBC? In any way do either of the above relate to his lowered WBC? I am more than curious. I'm a hemochromatosis gene carrier on TRT with a couple periods of past heavy alcohol use (normal live values) and have iron overload issues.
    Excess Iron
    Too much iron can lead to damage to a number of organs, including the heart, liver, pancreas (where insulin is made), and joints. The most common cause of iron excess is an inherited disease called hemochromatosis. In this disease, the body absorbs more iron than it needs from the gut, and the excess iron gradually accumulates, causing organ damage over many years. The disease is inherited, usually when you get one copy of an abnormal HFE gene from each of your parents. People with only one abnormal HFE gene show no evidence of the disease.

    Many people who have hemochromatosis will have no symptoms for their whole life, while others start to develop symptoms such as joint pain, abdominal pain, and weakness in their 20’s or 30’s. Heavy alcohol use seems to increase the amount of iron absorbed, while women are somewhat protected because they lose iron every month with their menstrual period. There is now a test to detect the abnormal form of the gene; this can be used if you have unexplained high iron levels or if you have a family history of hemochromatosis.

    Some people develop iron overload but do not have the genetic disease hemochromatosis. Their condition is referred to as secondary iron overload or hemosiderosis. This may occur in patients who have multiple transfusions, such as those with thalassemia or other forms of anemia. The iron from each transfused unit of blood stays in the body, eventually causing a large build-up in the tissues. Some alcoholics with chronic liver disease also develop hemosiderosis.
    Iron Tests
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    Quote Originally Posted by madclown View Post

    So what if that flood of DHT (I quit cold turkey) coupled with the high E2 (which has since come down quite a bit over the past 20 months) somehow screwed my HTPA and told it to lower T output, since there was so much DHT in the blood? But at the same time, why is my penis/scrotum shrunk if I have high DHT, decent Free/Bio T and a mid-range T level (which could stand to be higher)?
    The HPTA gets negative feedback from T,E, DHT, progesterone and probably some E metabolites. There is a probably variations on how we each would respond to any given mix. The feedback will be from the mix of hormones. The HPTA is is much the same as what females have. So it is no surprise that it is sensitive to the 'female' hormones as well.

    If you get on TRT, avoid transdermals as that will create more DHT and E than injections.

    I don't see why your scrotum and testes would be as you describe with your levels, as you are not shutdown. The scrotum and testes respond to LH, maybe FST as well and HCG. DHT is important for the testes and penis. But you have lots of DHT now. If your scrotum is pulled up tight, then that suggests that your are substantially shut down. Bring this observation STRONGLY to your doctor's attention. There must be some reason for this conflicting situation.
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    In a simialir postion as you mate, I took propecia for 3-4 months back in 2003 and balls shrunk, lost sex drive etc etc I stopped taking it and never recovered, my blood tests show low FSH/LH levels and Low Test levels. and it didnt do anything for my hair while on it
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockstar6181 View Post
    In a simialir postion as you mate, I took propecia for 3-4 months back in 2003 and balls shrunk, lost sex drive etc etc I stopped taking it and never recovered, my blood tests show low FSH/LH levels and Low Test levels. and it didnt do anything for my hair while on it
    Post your current (complete) blood test with ranges.
    Post if you are taking any medicine and supplements and what that is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by B5150
    Quote Originally Posted by KSman View Post
    As your T levels recover over time we also see in increase in hematocrit. Some guys react that way on TRT as their T increases. Some have to do blood donations or just get drained.

    I did not see a test for serum iron. Many guys have a problem with high iron.

    Your DHT is quite high. That may be repressive to the HPTA and keeping T levels down.
    Is it a balancing act between RBC and WBC? In any way do either of the above relate to his lowered WBC? I am more than curious. I'm a hemochromatosis gene carrier on TRT with a couple periods of past heavy alcohol use (normal live values) and have iron overload issues.
    Excess Iron
    Too much iron can lead to damage to a number of organs, including the heart, liver, pancreas (where insulin is made), and joints. The most common cause of iron excess is an inherited disease called hemochromatosis. In this disease, the body absorbs more iron than it needs from the gut, and the excess iron gradually accumulates, causing organ damage over many years. The disease is inherited, usually when you get one copy of an abnormal HFE gene from each of your parents. People with only one abnormal HFE gene show no evidence of the disease.

    Many people who have hemochromatosis will have no symptoms for their whole life, while others start to develop symptoms such as joint pain, abdominal pain, and weakness in their 20’s or 30’s. Heavy alcohol use seems to increase the amount of iron absorbed, while women are somewhat protected because they lose iron every month with their menstrual period. There is now a test to detect the abnormal form of the gene; this can be used if you have unexplained high iron levels or if you have a family history of hemochromatosis.

    Some people develop iron overload but do not have the genetic disease hemochromatosis. Their condition is referred to as secondary iron overload or hemosiderosis. This may occur in patients who have multiple transfusions, such as those with thalassemia or other forms of anemia. The iron from each transfused unit of blood stays in the body, eventually causing a large build-up in the tissues. Some alcoholics with chronic liver disease also develop hemosiderosis.
    Iron Tests
    Can I get some insight from any of you gentlemen.

    I have a concern of mine that I am awaiting a reply from Dr. John for quite some time now. I've given up on it at this point.

    Of course I will be bringing my concerns and questions with me to my endo appointment but I would appreciate it if anyone would be at least kind enough to reply to my inquiry.
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    Gentleman, wanted to update you on the Hematology panel I posted about.

    I had my Hematology Panel retested a month after the above, in addition to Cholesterol and an Iron Binding/Saturation and Ferritin test. You can view the updated results in the attachment below.

    All came back normal. Of particular concern, these values were out of range in my last test (May 9, 2007). Now (June 15th 2007):

    - Platelet count increased to back in range
    - Hemaglobin and Hematocrit decreased to in range
    - Red Blood Cell count decreased back in range
    - White Blood Cell count increased
    - Differetentials increased

    Doc says the out of range stuff noted in the previous Hematology comparison (a few posts above) was just a "blip" or could have been due to dehydration or sickness that day... most likely dehydration.

    Will keep an eye on this in the future, but for now I am relieved to see things are back to normal in terms of my blood... concerns about things like polycythemia vera, low platelet counts (thrombocytopenia) and such are not fun to have on your mind.

    Anyway, just wanted to let you know... unfortunately this is the only good news as I am still suffering from ED/loss of libido/lack of spontaneous, nocturnal, moring erections/genital numbness thanks to 11 months of Finasteride usage, 20 months ago.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by madclown; 07-02-2007 at 04:28 PM. Reason: Forgot to attach bloodwork
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    Quote Originally Posted by madclown View Post
    Gentleman, wanted to update you on the Hematology panel I posted about.

    I had my Hematology Panel retested a month after the above, in addition to Cholesterol and an Iron Binding/Saturation and Ferritin test. You can view the updated results in the attachment below.

    All came back normal. Of particular concern, these values were out of range in my last test (May 9, 2007). Now (June 15th 2007):

    - Platelet count increased to back in range
    - Hemaglobin and Hematocrit decreased to in range
    - Red Blood Cell count decreased back in range
    - White Blood Cell count increased
    - Differetentials increased

    Doc says the out of range stuff noted in the previous Hematology comparison (a few posts above) was just a "blip" or could have been due to dehydration or sickness that day... most likely dehydration.

    Will keep an eye on this in the future, but for now I am relieved to see things are back to normal in terms of my blood... concerns about things like polycythemia vera, low platelet counts (thrombocytopenia) and such are not fun to have on your mind.

    Anyway, just wanted to let you know... unfortunately this is the only good news as I am still suffering from ED/loss of libido/lack of spontaneous, nocturnal, moring erections/genital numbness thanks to 11 months of Finasteride usage, 20 months ago.
    Your bloot test is hard to read.
    Retype the whole thing on spredsheet, "print screen", save and have one table posted as attachment.

    You will get more responses that way.
    Get
    Estrogen, sensitive
    or
    Estrogen Ultra-sensitive

    Get your BioAvailable testosterone to upper range.
    Reduce your Prolactin


    Your DHT looks nice, I doubt you have been hurt by finasteride.
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    move your mouse around the attatchment when opened... it can be enlarged..
  

  
 

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