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Something is seriously wrong

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    Something is seriously wrong


    OK I finally got a referral to an endo from my GP after my last blood work. He said my estrogen, prolactin and DHT were in the normal range. He thinks something is wrong with my epiditymus so he also made me a referral to get an ultrasound. I had Varicocele surgery about 4 months ago and I thought my test levels would be improved. Something is seriously wrong with my nuts because I have been having low ejaculate volume. What can cause Total AND free test to be low? I can still get it up, but I havent had morning wood for a long time and libido is low when I'm not taking any herbal testosterone supps.

    Total test was 344
    Free test was 9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde12 View Post
    OK I finally got a referral to an endo from my GP after my last blood work. He said my estrogen, prolactin and DHT were in the normal range. He thinks something is wrong with my epiditymus so he also made me a referral to get an ultrasound. I had Varicocele surgery about 4 months ago and I thought my test levels would be improved. Something is seriously wrong with my nuts because I have been having low ejaculate volume. What can cause Total AND free test to be low? I can still get it up, but I havent had morning wood for a long time and libido is low when I'm not taking any herbal testosterone supps.

    Total test was 344
    Free test was 9
    Hey man, I read about your surgery in another thread but didn't remember what your LH and FSH were? I am guessing they were ok? low free/total = primary hypogandism. Are your nuts changing in size lately? Any other blood work that stands out?
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    Quote Originally Posted by smc252 View Post
    Hey man, I read about your surgery in another thread but didn't remember what your LH and FSH were? I am guessing they were ok? low free/total = primary hypogandism. Are your nuts changing in size lately? Any other blood work that stands out?
    My LH and FSH were both on the low side. Ive got an appt. with an endo in a couple of weeks. My nuts have been jumping around in size a lot. Sometimes they feel normal and sometimes not. I never have morning erections either. I get a chub and thats it. I also have another ultrasound in a couple of days. I was thinking that I had chronic epiditimitus because that area seems inflamed all the time. I also have really low edjaculate volume and its not all that thick either. I really don't want to get put on TRT. I keep hoping that its just something wrong with the plumbing and that they will be able to fix it.
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    how long did you run post cycle therapy for on that havoc?

    edit: and did you run an AI in there at all?
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    Hyde, being a fellow varicocele sufferer i thought i would chip in.

    Ejaculate volume has NOTHING todo with your nut's or nut size. FSH however DOES play a role in the production of seminal fluid in the seminal vessals/prostate area however, so if your PCT was messed up and both are still low (2/3 being pretty low) then your ejaculate volume will be low. I believe high E2 can reduce ejaculate volume too, which would make sense as i have low E2 and huge loads (but badly atrophied nuts). My LH/FSH are normal however and not elevated.

    You don't have epiditymus or "infection" of the testicle. Varicocele causes a whole ton of intertesticular fluid production problems and small blood vessel problems which can cause aching, swelling, discoloration, etc in the testicle and surronding area. Everybody (near enough) that get's varicocele get's problems with the epiditymus, be it in the form of blockage (sometimes only detactable on ultrasound) or actual pain from the testicle/spermaric cord/veins. About 90% of varicocele sufferers even after surgery get epiditymal swelling now and again and other strange occurances like this.

    The bad new's is there is very little that can be done to fix this. Varicocele causes a whole host of damage and i don't believe redirecting blood flow alone is the answer. It does however offer some pain relief.

    Can you post up your most recent blood work (including ranges) if possible? Would like to take a look. Do you have thyroid tests at hand?

    Have you noticed your testicles doing anything else odd like atrophying, changing size, pulling up tight all the time, etc?
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    I meant to add, one possibility in your case (if i recall your LH was about 3.1?) is that you still have high E2 which is causing your problems (which can include: testicular pain, epididymus problems, low ejaculate volume, sperm production problems, gyno, etc). It's possible that high E2 is lowering your LH and in turn causing a low testosterone level and low free t and also contributing to the "issues" you have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megazoid View Post
    I meant to add, one possibility in your case (if i recall your LH was about 3.1?) is that you still have high E2 which is causing your problems (which can include: testicular pain, epididymus problems, low ejaculate volume, sperm production problems, gyno, etc). It's possible that high E2 is lowering your LH and in turn causing a low testosterone level and low free t and also contributing to the "issues" you have.
    Good advice on the E2. Well I should also add that when I had the last test done, I had just got done with a 4 mile run and it was at about 10 in the morning, so that may have had something to do with it. My post cycle therapy went good after Havoc and I've been feeling the best that I ever have afterwards. I do however experience the low volume and no morning erections (only a chub, don't know if that counts or not)
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomi822 View Post
    how long did you run post cycle therapy for on that havoc?

    edit: and did you run an AI in there at all?
    I ran Torm and AX PCT which has an AI in it
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    I'm gonna go and get my medical record today so that I can post all the tests that I had done on here.
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    dude from looking at this id say you just had a nice little estrogen rebound at the end of your PCT
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    "..you just had a nice little estrogen rebound at the end of your post cycle therapy"


    That's kinda what it strikes me as. I usually feel that way for a few weeks or up to 2 months after a cycle ..unless I use HCG or IGF-1. Teste size will range from normal to sub-normal on a random basis. Sex drive is low, ejaculate is low, erections are pretty mediocre....but all this clears up with time and or some RPM or other Icariin product.
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    its surprising how powerful these supplemental AI's can be.

    if i were you id get my hands on a little anastrazole...run it for a week at .25 mgs ED and then close up with 20mgs of tamoxifen for another 2 weeks or so.

    thats just me. youd also really benefeit from that igf-1. the stuff really does work wonders on the ol' knads
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomi822 View Post
    its surprising how powerful these supplemental AI's can be.

    if i were you id get my hands on a little anastrazole...run it for a week at .25 mgs ED and then close up with 20mgs of tamoxifen for another 2 weeks or so.

    thats just me. youd also really benefeit from that igf-1. the stuff really does work wonders on the ol' knads
    I didn't know that IGF-1 did anything for the nuts. I wanted to try it anyway so this would be a good excuse. I was thinking that some of my problems has something to do with corisol because I am having a lot of trouble losing fat in my lower abs and my hands and feet are always cold.
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    OK, here is the highlights from my last blood work.

    Total Testosterone: 344
    Free Testosterone: 9.2 Ref range 9.3-26.5
    Estrogen Serum 120 Ref range ?
    Prolactin 9.89 Ref range 2.5-17
    RBC 5.97 ref range 3.96-5.5.
    Hemoglobin 17 ref range 11.5-16.8
    Urea Nitrogen 26 ref range 7-18
    alanine aminotransferase 69 30-65
    aspartate aminotransferase 45 15-37
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    Do you have serum iron or any other iron levels to report?
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    I don't think that they measured iron unless its called something else on the blood work. Can high/low Iron cause low Testosterone? My serum Estrogen looks high. I don't know what the reference range is supposed to be. When I go to my first Endo appt. I will ask if they can break it down for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde12 View Post
    I don't think that they measured iron unless its called something else on the blood work. Can high/low Iron cause low Testosterone? My serum Estrogen looks high. I don't know what the reference range is supposed to be. When I go to my first Endo appt. I will ask if they can break it down for me.
    Ask for (a clean and complete) copy of your blood work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Ask for (a clean and complete) copy of your blood work.
    What is the range for Serum Estrogen?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde12 View Post
    What is the range for Serum Estrogen?
    That depends on the lab that does the test, so you'd need to get that info from them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde12 View Post
    What is the range for Serum Estrogen?
    I have seen few different ranges.
    Important about estrodial test is that it should be ultrasensitive type.
    If it is not ultrasensitive the unfortunate person should just repeat the test with correct one rather that spend energy trying to divine correct answer from wrong test.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I have seen few different ranges.
    Important about estrodial test is that it should be ultrasensitive type.
    If it is not ultrasensitive the unfortunate person should just repeat the test with correct one rather that spend energy trying to divine correct answer from wrong test.
    Why do the ultrasensitive test when many ,or this poster's Doctor, may not be familiar with the numbers from the test and how to react to those? Look what happened to hardasnails when he had that test and his Doctor saw the low number and took him off of Arimidex and then hardasnails went through a few weeks of estrogen poisoning and had levels over 70pg/ml. Hardasnails' brain was frying in estrogen. His typical detailed posts became incompressible and he could not type very well that means that is motor system was also affected.

    So we have an example of that test leading to patient harm.

    Why is the ultrasensitive E2 test the correct test and why is the basic E2 test incorrect? I think that most TRT where E2 is getting tested is the basic E2 test and that most of the experience in dealing with E2 is via experience gained with the basic E2 test. If E2 is at a certain level via a basic E2 test and then one uses AI to lower E2 and a basic test shows a lower level of E2 in response to the AI; what is the problem with that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSman View Post
    Why do the ultrasensitive test when many ,or this poster's Doctor, may not be familiar with the numbers from the test and how to react to those? Look what happened to hardasnails when he had that test and his Doctor saw the low number and took him off of Arimidex and then hardasnails went through a few weeks of estrogen poisoning and had levels over 70pg/ml. Hardasnails' brain was frying in estrogen. His typical detailed posts became incompressible and he could not type very well that means that is motor system was also affected.
    So we have an example of that test leading to patient harm.

    Why is the ultrasensitive E2 test the correct test and why is the basic E2 test incorrect? I think that most TRT where E2 is getting tested is the basic E2 test and that most of the experience in dealing with E2 is via experience gained with the basic E2 test. If E2 is at a certain level via a basic E2 test and then one uses AI to lower E2 and a basic test shows a lower level of E2 in response to the AI; what is the problem with that?
    I could probably do some hand waving but that would not convince anyone.
    Lets check what good Dr John have to say about it:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-...e-success.html
    Quote:
    Estradiol (specify the Extraction Method, or “sensitive” assay for males)
    =========================
    As for handwaving.
    http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp/...3rdEd_2004.pdf
    page 64

    men (10-50)
    women (150-750) (there are other smaller ranges)

    Men have less Estrodial, require more accurate method to find out the actual level.
    There are probably other reasons.
    ===========================
    In one of my previous post I convinced myself about uselesness of using BioAvailable Testosterone calculator.
    It is due to totally incosistent error pattern.

    It would help if people could tested Estrodial twice.
    Once the right way and the other, the less accurate way.
    We would have more evidence.

    I happen to have such a test from one blood draw.

    Estradiol 45 pg/mL (<52) 1-45/52= 0.13 (from top)
    Estradiol, Ultra-sensitive 27 pg/mL (10-50) 1-27/(50-10)= 0.33(from top)

    If estrodial results are somewhat similar to BAT behaviour there will be no way to estimate ultrasensitive range knowing less accurate range.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I always think that it is because english is my second language so I never dared to make this type of a coment.
    I hope Hardasnails' will take it the way it is ment, us being concern about fellow brother in suffering.

    I also have noted Hardasnails' problem.
    Some posts are clear as a bell, very educational, some are far from it.

    Hard to say if it is due to estrogen overload or something else,
    wish someone with more knowledge say few words about it.

    More importantly, one being in state like that, have a poor chance at convicting a doctor of the paramount importance of proper estrodial or other test.

    ============================== ===============
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I could probably do some hand waving but that would not convince anyone.
    Lets check what good Dr John have to say about it:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-...e-success.html
    Quote:
    Estradiol (specify the Extraction Method, or “sensitive” assay for males)
    =========================
    As for handwaving.
    http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp/...3rdEd_2004.pdf
    page 64

    men (10-50)
    women (150-750) (there are other smaller ranges)

    Men have less Estrodial, require more accurate method to find out the actual level.
    There are probably other reasons.
    ===========================
    In one of my previous post I convinced myself about uselesness of using BioAvailable Testosterone calculator.
    It is due to totally incosistent error pattern.

    It would help if people could tested Estrodial twice.
    Once the right way and the other, the less accurate way.
    We would have more evidence.

    I happen to have such a test from one blood draw.

    Estradiol 45 pg/mL (<52) 1-45/52= 0.13 (from top)
    Estradiol, Ultra-sensitive 27 pg/mL (10-50) 1-27/(50-10)= 0.33(from top)

    If estrodial results are somewhat similar to BAT behaviour there will be no way to estimate ultrasensitive range knowing less accurate range.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I always think that it is because english is my second language so I never dared to make this type of a coment.
    I hope Hardasnails' will take it the way it is ment, us being concern about fellow brother in suffering.

    I also have noted Hardasnails' problem.
    Some posts are clear as a bell, very educational, some are far from it.

    Hard to say if it is due to estrogen overload or something else,
    wish someone with more knowledge say few words about it.

    More importantly, one being in state like that, have a poor chance at convicting a doctor of the paramount importance of proper estrodial or other test.

    ============================== ===============
    I am inclined to think that the very low E that hardasnails had with that one test was a lab error. Any ideas on that?
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    Why is it that a level of 70 pg/ml estrogen (E2?) is estrogen poisoning in a male (as the reference range is 10 - 50... I assume that is for E2 and not Total Es), and a female's range is 150 - 750?

    Obviously the female who might have a level of 300 is not suffering "estrogen poisoning" nor having her "brain fried".

    Yes., those levels are not optimal for a male and yes those levels are healthy for a male... but we're not talking sulphuric acid or lye here either.

    Clearly too high or too low of estrogens - and not just E2 - are situations that need to be addressed, but overhyping their symptoms isn't really necessary... I personally have had E2 levels over 70 (range 0 - 50) and Total E levels close to 300 (range < 200) and suffered moderate symptoms to be expected (mood swings, water retention, some anxiety, etc), but no estrogen poisoning or brian frying...

    And adding in some AI medication along the general guidelines of that used by Dr C soon had me back in quite good levels (a level of 22 of E2 - sensitrive assay test - and 114 of Total Es).
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    Quote Originally Posted by MongolHahn View Post
    Why is it that a level of 70 pg/ml estrogen (E2?) is estrogen poisoning in a male (as the reference range is 10 - 50... I assume that is for E2 and not Total Es), and a female's range is 150 - 750?

    Obviously the female who might have a level of 300 is not suffering "estrogen poisoning" nor having her "brain fried".

    Yes., those levels are not optimal for a male and yes those levels are healthy for a male... but we're not talking sulphuric acid or lye here either.

    Clearly too high or too low of estrogens - and not just E2 - are situations that need to be addressed, but overhyping their symptoms isn't really necessary... I personally have had E2 levels over 70 (range 0 - 50) and Total E levels close to 300 (range < 200) and suffered moderate symptoms to be expected (mood swings, water retention, some anxiety, etc), but no estrogen poisoning or brian frying...

    And adding in some AI medication along the general guidelines of that used by Dr C soon had me back in quite good levels (a level of 22 of E2 - sensitrive assay test - and 114 of Total Es).
    When someone becomes dysfunctional, I feel free to use inappropriate adjectives. The result was a mess, all brought on by a lab report. Women seem to be wired to work with E. E can really make life a mess for men. The result is as good as poison, although not fatal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSman View Post
    When someone becomes dysfunctional, I feel free to use inappropriate adjectives. The result was a mess, all brought on by a lab report. Women seem to be wired to work with E. E can really make life a mess for men. The result is as good as poison, although not fatal.

    Actually E (E2 and the rest) are vital for men. If their levels are excessively high they can develop problems. If their levels are excessively low, they can develop problems. Men's ranges for estrogen are different (much less) than are women's - just as women's ranges are much less than men's when it comes to the hormone Testosterone.

    E is not evil. It is not a poison (or "as good as one"). It is a vital and necessary hormone (studies have shown that elderly males with fractured hips / legs from simple falls almost invariably suffer from excessively LOW levels of E).

    And I don't see any evidence here that anyone is dealing with extremely high levels of E2 or Total Es... or that there's been any type of lab error (other than a made assumption).

    On top of this, I seem to get the feeling that this whole thread is somehow related to being a result of PCT following a cycle of AAS. If that is so, is this the right forum to be addressing this topic?

    In fact, I believe that there was already a warning posted on it?

    06-06-2007 09:46 PM
    Dr. John Quote:
    Originally Posted by jomi822
    dude from looking at this id say you just had a nice little estrogen rebound at the end of your post cycle therapy


    Hey, all you Dudes: enough with all this post cycle therapy stuff, please. Remember our Gentleman's Agreement here.
    Maybe this whole thread should be moved to an AAS PCT forum area?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MongolHahn View Post
    Actually E (E2 and the rest) are vital for men. If their levels are excessively high they can develop problems. If their levels are excessively low, they can develop problems. Men's ranges for estrogen are different (much less) than are women's - just as women's ranges are much less than men's when it comes to the hormone Testosterone.

    E is not evil. It is not a poison (or "as good as one"). It is a vital and necessary hormone (studies have shown that elderly males with fractured hips / legs from simple falls almost invariably suffer from excessively LOW levels of E).

    And I don't see any evidence here that anyone is dealing with extremely high levels of E2 or Total Es... or that there's been any type of lab error (other than a made assumption).

    On top of this, I seem to get the feeling that this whole thread is somehow related to being a result of post cycle therapy following a cycle of anabolic steroids. If that is so, is this the right forum to be addressing this topic?

    In fact, I believe that there was already a warning posted on it?



    Maybe this whole thread should be moved to an AAS PCT forum area?
    I am not the one to make decision of what and where is discussed.
    But it looks to me that people on steroids are screwing their hormones quite thoroughly.

    After screw up the indigenous hormones have a hard time in following their usual paths.
    As a courtesy to men who do not have such history any question should be preceded by admission of using (name what you have used) steroids. At least people who are trying to help would get better picture of a problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MongolHahn View Post
    E is not evil. It is not a poison (or "as good as one"). It is a vital and necessary hormone (studies have shown that elderly males with fractured hips / legs from simple falls almost invariably suffer from excessively LOW levels of E).

    LOL, I tend to think that elderly men who break their hips have more of an issue of low GH, FT, TT and not having low E2

    The most common reason why an elderly person would have low E2 would be from having no aromitization from present T being in the gutter.

    Still, good try
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    Quote Originally Posted by MongolHahn View Post



    Maybe this whole thread should be moved to an AAS PCT forum area?
    Considering he isn't on a PCT anymore, and needs help in something else(getting HTPA restarted) I say maybe it shouldn't
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    Quote Originally Posted by MongolHahn View Post
    Actually E (E2 and the rest) are vital for men. If their levels are excessively high they can develop problems. If their levels are excessively low, they can develop problems. Men's ranges for estrogen are different (much less) than are women's - just as women's ranges are much less than men's when it comes to the hormone Testosterone.

    E is not evil. It is not a poison (or "as good as one"). It is a vital and necessary hormone (studies have shown that elderly males with fractured hips / legs from simple falls almost invariably suffer from excessively LOW levels of E).

    And I don't see any evidence here that anyone is dealing with extremely high levels of E2 or Total Es... or that there's been any type of lab error (other than a made assumption).

    On top of this, I seem to get the feeling that this whole thread is somehow related to being a result of post cycle therapy following a cycle of anabolic steroids. If that is so, is this the right forum to be addressing this topic?

    In fact, I believe that there was already a warning posted on it?



    Maybe this whole thread should be moved to an AAS PCT forum area?
    Yes, men need E, anyone who has learned the basics will know that.

    This post is well beyond any implications of PCT. Get over that. Threads have a life of their own and the original context is often deviated from.

    I have seen many guys here and elsewhere, where their TRT is messed up by the TRT induced increases in E2 levels. With TRT, the T levels can be high and there can be good androgentic and anobolic responseds. But with increased E2, guys with those high-normal T levels can have problems with ED, libido, energy, brain fog, depression etc. So E2 can spoil the TRT. And the E2 effects that do this are typically in the 30's, well withing 'normal range'. So E2 can lead to bad results in TRT for many if not checked and corrected. The effects of E2 are often "evil". for guys on TRT. And I think that for many, before TRT starts, AI to lower E2 might reduce things like brain fog.


    Hardasnails had a lab report that showed his E2 was '2'. This must be a bad lab report. He was taken off of AI and his E2 went over 70 and he had a lot of bad effects on his body and mind. You must have missed that info. E2vil!
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSman View Post
    Yes, men need E, anyone who has learned the basics will know that.

    This post is well beyond any implications of post cycle therapy. Get over that. Threads have a life of their own and the original context is often deviated from.

    I have seen many guys here and elsewhere, where their TRT is messed up by the TRT induced increases in E2 levels. With TRT, the T levels can be high and there can be good androgentic and anobolic responseds. But with increased E2, guys with those high-normal T levels can have problems with ED, libido, energy, brain fog, depression etc. So E2 can spoil the TRT. And the E2 effects that do this are typically in the 30's, well withing 'normal range'. So E2 can lead to bad results in TRT for many if not checked and corrected. The effects of E2 are often "evil". for guys on TRT. And I think that for many, before TRT starts, AI to lower E2 might reduce things like brain fog.


    Hardasnails had a lab report that showed his E2 was '2'. This must be a bad lab report. He was taken off of AI and his E2 went over 70 and he had a lot of bad effects on his body and mind. You must have missed that info. E2vil!
    Some people get screved by finasteride (most not)
    other people get screved by steroids ( I am guessing, most not).

    When making attempt at figuring out a problem it is good to know about prior uses of whatewer.
    Witholding information is not helping anyone.
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