What is the interplay and/or interrelationship between glucose issues and T, etc?

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    What is the interplay and/or interrelationship between glucose issues and T, etc?


    I've read several posts here commenting on a relationship between glucose levels and T levels (plus a variety of other hormones) and don't quite follow.

    How does being hypoglyemic, if that's the right term, and/or insulin resistance tie into T levels, etc? What is the cause & effect?

    Assuming there is a connection, what would a person do? Should the glycemic index of foods be more carefully observed? Anything else?

    I am really starting to wonder if just living sends our T levels plummeting. Seems like pretty much everything we eat, touch, breath or even look at has this effect, or so it seems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anyman View Post
    I've read several posts here commenting on a relationship between glucose levels and T levels (plus a variety of other hormones) and don't quite follow.

    How does being hypoglyemic, if that's the right term, and/or insulin resistance tie into T levels, etc? What is the cause & effect?

    Assuming there is a connection, what would a person do? Should the glycemic index of foods be more carefully observed? Anything else?

    I am really starting to wonder if just living sends our T levels plummeting. Seems like pretty much everything we eat, touch, breath or even look at has this effect, or so it seems.
    Being insulin resistant is probably the first step that leads into a wide range out health problems, including cancer and heart disease.

    Insulin resistantce leads to fat gain/deposit.

    Fat gain/deposit leads to increases in E, because E is produced and stored in BF.

    Increases in E clog up T receptors and lead to decreases in T.

    Decreases in T lead to more fat gain, more E. Long viscious cycle.

    Our bodies are not designed to be fat in any way shape or form.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Being insulin resistant is probably the first step that leads into a wide range out health problems, including cancer and heart disease.

    Insulin resistantce leads to fat gain/deposit.

    Fat gain/deposit leads to increases in E, because E is produced and stored in BF.

    Increases in E clog up T receptors and lead to decreases in T.

    Decreases in T lead to more fat gain, more E. Long viscious cycle.

    Our bodies are not designed to be fat in any way shape or form.
    Look at our prehistoric ancestors and before we became grain consumers as well.. lean mean and strong hunter gathers (fruits, nuts, meats, )
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    Look at our prehistoric ancestors and before we became grain consumers as well.. lean mean and strong hunter gathers (fruits, nuts, meats, )
    Yep. The funny thing is, is that the medical community knows this because of the multiple studies done on chimps, who are very close to our DNA. When they eat there usual primitive diet, their arteries show little/no damage when given autopsy. When they are fed an modernized diet heavily laced with bread/cereal/rice/pasta/sugar, they get heart disease.

    Its rather simple, I can't figure out why everyone doesn't get it. But then again, nobody ever believes whats right in front of their nose, do they
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Yep. The funny thing is, is that the medical community knows this because of the multiple studies done on chimps, who are very close to our DNA. When they eat there usual primitive diet, their arteries show little/no damage when given autopsy. When they are fed an modernized diet heavily laced with bread/cereal/rice/pasta/sugar, they get heart disease.

    Its rather simple, I can't figure out why everyone doesn't get it. But then again, nobody ever believes whats right in front of their nose, do they
    I love how we think the same bro..
    I always ate like my ancestors low grains (buckwheat pancakes ROCK!!) , fruits and yams, sweet potaotes, tons of veggies, high protein, moderate fat (50% efas, animal meats, nuts, MCT) and moderate carbs and never had a problem.

    My diet was always 30-40% acidic and more alkaline and I still wonder what went wrong LOL I think seriously it was severe iodine defiency (not salting food for 25 years, egg white only no yolks and very little fish) along with toxic exposure to too much heated food in plastic causing a shift in good:bad estrogen depleting my methy groups resulting in semi fatti liver which dr kane noted. This would be backed by low cholesterol, low ldh, low alkaline phosphotase, low LDH isoenyzmes, low triglycerides. All the fat and crap i eat and still have low triglyceriedes its being stored in the liver and not released. MY low choline levels told me that due to low cortisol and elevated lipid phospholipase a2 (rips open cell membranes and depletes EFAS, Phcsphodytl choline)
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    I love how we think the same bro..
    I always ate like my ancestors low grains (buckwheat pancakes ROCK!!) , fruits and yams, sweet potaotes, tons of veggies, high protein, moderate fat (50% efas, animal meats, nuts, MCT) and moderate carbs and never had a problem.

    My diet was always 30-40% acidic and more alkaline and I still wonder what went wrong LOL I think seriously it was severe iodine defiency (not salting food for 25 years, egg white only no yolks and very little fish) along with toxic exposure to too much heated food in plastic causing a shift in good:bad estrogen depleting my methy groups resulting in semi fatti liver which dr kane noted. This would be backed by low cholesterol, low ldh, low alkaline phosphotase, low LDH isoenyzmes, low triglycerides. All the fat and crap i eat and still have low triglyceriedes its being stored in the liver and not released. MY low choline levels told me that due to low cortisol and elevated lipid phospholipase a2 (rips open cell membranes and depletes EFAS, Phcsphodytl choline)
    Bro you wouldn't believe the looks I get from family and friends when they see me eat. A typical lunch for me is a 7 egg omlet(yolk included) lots of bacon and cheese and a big veggie salad. Dinner is always veggie stir fry in several tablespoons of organic butter, and usually alot of red meat, 1/2 to a full pound.

    I snack on pork rinds, cheese, beef jerky, cans of salmon(I go threw several a day of those as well).

    But I have the undeniable cholesterol data from several tests. My HDL is way high and LDL is way low, bloodpressure always 110/65 and resting pulse is always under 50 beats a min.

    Nails I am no liver expert but I do know that there are a multitude of environmental toxic substances that can cause a sluggish liver. Have you ever look into chelation therapy?

    Any prior anabolic steroids use? Alcohol? Long periods of time on antibiotics, or any other types of prescription drugs(even aspirin)?
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Bro you wouldn't believe the looks I get from family and friends when they see me eat. A typical lunch for me is a 7 egg omlet(yolk included) lots of bacon and cheese and a big veggie salad. Dinner is always veggie stir fry in several tablespoons of organic butter, and usually alot of red meat, 1/2 to a full pound.

    I snack on pork rinds, cheese, beef jerky, cans of salmon(I go threw several a day of those as well).

    But I have the undeniable cholesterol data from several tests. My HDL is way high and LDL is way low, bloodpressure always 110/65 and resting pulse is always under 50 beats a min.

    Nails I am no liver expert but I do know that there are a multitude of environmental toxic substances that can cause a sluggish liver. Have you ever look into chelation therapy?

    Any prior anabolic steroids use? Alcohol? Long periods of time on antibiotics, or any other types of prescription drugs(even aspirin)?

    Testosterone is used to prevent fatty liver GO FIGURE HAHA
    My body was always used to running high natural. i was benching 405 at 171 as a teenageer natural so i always had higher test levels. Not spanking the monkey for 5 years might have helped LOL As a teen i was never taught until I kind of figured it out on my own when i was 17. I was a late bloomer.. I probably had low adrenals for years and never even knew it and it just took a good hit from something to finally just totally knock them out. I beleive iodine was major part of the problem due to past dietary habits and alot of goitergenic foods and also tons of green tea and no egg yolks, not salting food ect. I took 50 mgs of iodoral and I had a bad reaction it must have been pulling mercury and halgons into my bowel faster then anything and flooding body, My tongue went from red to pure white in mater of 4 days. Since stpping the iodine I feel much better.. and when things level out I will start at 6.5 mgs a day and work up due to toasted adrenals and thyroid...

    just got back from DR and prostrate is 50% normal size 120 grams vs 80 and right away he blamed it on dht and I meantioned to him that its more so improper estrogen conversion and metabolism is the problem. He mentioed dim and then I said that only part of it the finishing part is methylation which for me has always been under active and so it got him thinking. and now we are going to further probe into good:bad ratio and see if they are being metabolized properly are just building back up and reciruclaring through liver pushing up shbg..
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    The new way of thinking is that *within reason* elevated DHT will only cause prostate issues when elevated estrogen is present(discounting extremely high DHT levels due to AAS)

    Study after study after study coming out now is showing that pretty much every guy with prostate cancer has mid to low range DHT - go figure. Guess what they all have in common? High estradoil and 16 - hydroxy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    The new way of thinking is that *within reason* elevated DHT will only cause prostate issues when elevated estrogen is present(discounting extremely high DHT levels due to anabolic steroids)

    Study after study after study coming out now is showing that pretty much every guy with prostate cancer has mid to low range DHT - go figure. Guess what they all have in common? High estradoil and 16 - hydroxy.

    e2 is in check but e:t is out of wack which is just as bad as high e2 and also i am banking deplted methy groups the 16 hydroxy can not be metabolized completely and just building up clogging things up deplteing them even more --good theory?
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    e2 is in check but e:t is out of wack which is just as bad as high e2 and also i am banking deplted methy groups the 16 hydroxy can not be metabolized completely and just building up clogging things up deplteing them even more --good theory?
    Well there is one way to find that out - 16 hydroxy converts into estriol(E3). And Estrone(E1) is converted into 16 hydroxy - So an elevated E1 level and a low E3 could possibly mean that 16 hydroxy is not being metabolised and estrogen metabolism in general is out of wack.

    There are alot of compounds out there that help estrogen metabolism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Well there is one way to find that out - 16 hydroxy converts into estriol(E3). And Estrone(E1) is converted into 16 hydroxy - So an elevated E1 level and a low E3 could possibly mean that 16 hydroxy is not being metabolised and estrogen metabolism in general is out of wack.

    There are alot of compounds out there that help estrogen metabolism.

    If this is wacking out prostrate why could it also affect receptor binding in hypothalalmus, adrenals, thyroid, testosterone as well. and may possible be core of my over all problem from the start?
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    The new way of thinking is that *within reason* elevated DHT will only cause prostate issues when elevated estrogen is present(discounting extremely high DHT levels due to anabolic steroids)

    Study after study after study coming out now is showing that pretty much every guy with prostate cancer has mid to low range DHT - go figure. Guess what they all have in common? High estradoil and 16 - hydroxy.
    What are the bounds or reason?
    My DHT was very very high when using 10grams of Androgel (large skin area).
    Now it is only very high on Tcreme.
    How do you like my numbers, I post the rest when it arrives.
    Other than DHT note Estradiol that is exactly in the same place after taking truck loads of DIM+I3C and resveratol
    What causes prolactin rise?
    -
    Test Oct2006(LabCorp)
    Total Estrogens------------------------------ 260 pg/mL (40-115) LE’s Optimal Range: 40–77 pg/mL
    estrone, serum------------------------------- 78 pg/mL (12-72)
    Estradiol, sensitive--------------------------- 27 pg/mL (3-70) LE’s Optimal Range: 10–30 pg/mL
    Total Testosterone-------------------------- 932 ng/dL (241-827) LE’s Optimal Range 500–827 ng/dL
    Free Testosterone--------------------------- 36.5 pg/mL (6.6-18.1) LE’s Optimal Range: 18–26.5 pg/mL
    DHT (dihydrotestosterone)--------------- 226 ng/dL (30-85) LE’s Optimal Range: 30–50 ng/dL
    prolactin, serum----------------------------- 4.2 ng/dL (2.1-17.7) LE’s Optimal Range: 2.1–5 ng/mL
    /
    Test Apr13/2007(Quest)
    Estrogens, Total, Serum 60 pg/mL (130 or less)
    Estrone,serum 33 pg/mL (<or=68)
    Estradiol, Ultra-sensitive 27 pg/mL ('10-50)
    Testosterone Total 456 ng/dL (250-1100)
    Testosterone Free 91 pg/mL (46.0-224.0)
    Testosterone Bioavailable 179 ng/dL (110.0-575.0)
    Dihydrotestosterone DHT 143 ng/dL (25-75)
    Prolactin 5.9 mg/mL (2.0-18.0) Dr Shippen likes 3.0
    SHBG 20 nmol/L (23-38)
    Albumin, serum 4.3 g/dL (3.6-5.1)
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    What are the bounds or reason?
    My DHT was very very high when using 10grams of Androgel (large skin area).
    Now it is only very high on Tcreme.
    How do you like my numbers, I post the rest when it arrives.
    Other than DHT note Estradiol that is exactly in the same place after taking truck loads of DIM+I3C and resveratol
    What causes prolactin rise?
    -
    Test Oct2006(LabCorp)
    Total Estrogens------------------------------ 260 pg/mL (40-115) LE’s Optimal Range: 40–77 pg/mL
    estrone, serum------------------------------- 78 pg/mL (12-72)
    Estradiol, sensitive--------------------------- 27 pg/mL (3-70) LE’s Optimal Range: 10–30 pg/mL
    Total Testosterone-------------------------- 932 ng/dL (241-827) LE’s Optimal Range 500–827 ng/dL
    Free Testosterone--------------------------- 36.5 pg/mL (6.6-18.1) LE’s Optimal Range: 18–26.5 pg/mL
    DHT (dihydrotestosterone)--------------- 226 ng/dL (30-85) LE’s Optimal Range: 30–50 ng/dL
    prolactin, serum----------------------------- 4.2 ng/dL (2.1-17.7) LE’s Optimal Range: 2.1–5 ng/mL
    /
    Test Apr13/2007(Quest)
    Estrogens, Total, Serum 60 pg/mL (130 or less)
    Estrone,serum 33 pg/mL (<or=68)
    Estradiol, Ultra-sensitive 27 pg/mL ('10-50)
    Testosterone Total 456 ng/dL (250-1100)
    Testosterone Free 91 pg/mL (46.0-224.0)
    Testosterone Bioavailable 179 ng/dL (110.0-575.0)
    Dihydrotestosterone DHT 143 ng/dL (25-75)
    Prolactin 5.9 mg/mL (2.0-18.0) Dr Shippen likes 3.0
    SHBG 20 nmol/L (23-38)
    Albumin, serum 4.3 g/dL (3.6-5.1)
    Well the theory is that FT is converted to excessive DHT in the prostate and causes prostate cancer - however, FT is only converted to this and causes problems by the action of 5 alpha reductase - This is why all the young teenage and 20 something men with high FT and mid - high DHT never have prostate issues - no 5AR issues in the prostate.

    Im no expert on this, this is my round about idea. I suspect that 16 hydroxy has something to do with all of this. Also check this out Anabolic Steroids with Michael Scally, MD #2 - Testosterone and the Prostate

    Prolactin to rise? -

    In some people, high blood levels of prolactin can be traced to causes other than a pituitary tumor.

    Prescription Drugs. Prolactin secretion in the pituitary is normally suppressed by the brain chemical, dopamine. Drugs that block the effects of dopamine at the pituitary or deplete dopamine stores in the brain may cause the pituitary to secrete prolactin. These drugs include the major tranquilizers trifluoperazine (Stelazine) and haloperidol (Haldol); metoclopramide (Reglan), used to treat gastroesophageal reflux and the nausea caused by certain cancer drugs; and less often, alpha methyldopa and reserpine, used to control hypertension.

    Other Pituitary Tumors. Other tumors arising in or near the pituitary—such as those that cause acromegaly or Cushing's syndrome—may block the flow of dopamine from the brain to the prolactin-secreting cells.

    Hypothyroidism. Increased prolactin levels are often seen in people with hypothyroidism, and doctors routinely test people with hyperprolactinemia for hypothyroidism. I suspect that most here who have thyroid and T issues probably can trace high prolactin to this.

    Breast Stimulation also can cause a modest increase in the amount of prolactin in the blood.

    (taken from Prolactinoma)

    So what your E2 didn't budge - its perfect were its at. Remember, I have a theory that even mid range E2 is fine - that its 16 hydroxy that is causing the problems. This is why some people feel fione with an E2 level of 40 yet others have all sorts of issues.

    Look at your total and E1 levels - they all went down from taking DIM + TMG + Resveratrol.

    Your DHT went down because of two things - Pregnenolone, which will help keep DHT in check, and the fact that you have less T going on, which is less conversion to DHT as well.

    Why have you not gotten ZMA and Fish Oil + Vit E yet
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Well the theory is that FT is converted to excessive DHT in the prostate and causes prostate cancer - however, FT is only converted to this and causes problems by the action of 5 alpha reductase - This is why all the young teenage and 20 something men with high FT and mid - high DHT never have prostate issues - no 5AR issues in the prostate.

    Im no expert on this, this is my round about idea. I suspect that 16 hydroxy has something to do with all of this. Also check this out Anabolic Steroids with Michael Scally, MD #2 - Testosterone and the Prostate

    Prolactin to rise? -

    In some people, high blood levels of prolactin can be traced to causes other than a pituitary tumor.

    Prescription Drugs. Prolactin secretion in the pituitary is normally suppressed by the brain chemical, dopamine. Drugs that block the effects of dopamine at the pituitary or deplete dopamine stores in the brain may cause the pituitary to secrete prolactin. These drugs include the major tranquilizers trifluoperazine (Stelazine) and haloperidol (Haldol); metoclopramide (Reglan), used to treat gastroesophageal reflux and the nausea caused by certain cancer drugs; and less often, alpha methyldopa and reserpine, used to control hypertension.

    Other Pituitary Tumors. Other tumors arising in or near the pituitaryŚsuch as those that cause acromegaly or Cushing's syndromeŚmay block the flow of dopamine from the brain to the prolactin-secreting cells.

    Hypothyroidism. Increased prolactin levels are often seen in people with hypothyroidism, and doctors routinely test people with hyperprolactinemia for hypothyroidism. I suspect that most here who have thyroid and T issues probably can trace high prolactin to this.

    Breast Stimulation also can cause a modest increase in the amount of prolactin in the blood.

    (taken from Prolactinoma)

    So what your E2 didn't budge - its perfect were its at. Remember, I have a theory that even mid range E2 is fine - that its 16 hydroxy that is causing the problems. This is why some people feel fione with an E2 level of 40 yet others have all sorts of issues.

    Look at your total and E1 levels - they all went down from taking DIM + TMG + Resveratrol.

    Your DHT went down because of two things - Pregnenolone, which will help keep DHT in check, and the fact that you have less T going on, which is less conversion to DHT as well.

    Why have you not gotten ZMA and Fish Oil + Vit E yet
    I am frustrated because they did not do my pregnenolone levels.
    About my lower DHT not sure how much it is form less testosterone getting in my blood. Before I used Androgel. Covered almost 50% of my body daily. Now 1gram of Tcrean that is 10x smaller area. Well now I doubled the dose I use 2grams of Tcream.
    Soon I will have to made up my mind what is acceptable (high) DHT level. Hate to use Avodart, pills have too big dose, cannot be cut. But there is Durastride at AG-Guys, it is liquid, I could use insulin syringe to get tiny daily dose.

    I did not forget ZMA and Fish oil.
    I use tonns of LEF products.
    ZMA=Vitamin B6 + Magnesium + Zinc
    my lattest blood test
    Magnesium 1.95mg/dL (1.50-2.50)
    Zinc 1051mcg/L (670-1240)
    --------------------------------
    Now looking at my good magnesium level, why am I getting mucle cramps after heavy dancing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I am frustrated because they did not do my pregnenolone levels.
    About my lower DHT not sure how much it is form less testosterone getting in my blood. Before I used Androgel. Covered almost 50% of my body daily. Now 1gram of Tcrean that is 10x smaller area. Well now I doubled the dose I use 2grams of Tcream.
    Soon I will have to made up my mind what is acceptable (high) DHT level. Hate to use Avodart, pills have too big dose, cannot be cut. But there is Durastride at AG-Guys, it is liquid, I could use insulin syringe to get tiny daily dose.

    I did not forget ZMA and Fish oil.
    I use tonns of LEF products.
    ZMA=Vitamin B6 + Magnesium + Zinc
    my lattest blood test
    Magnesium 1.95mg/dL (1.50-2.50)
    Zinc 1051mcg/L (670-1240)
    --------------------------------
    Now looking at my good magnesium level, why am I getting mucle cramps after heavy dancing?

    Only way to find out is get the finger up the ass..
    i had dht 175 and e2 of 19 and still my prostrate way 50% enlarged !! another reason i swtiched to injections !!
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    How are your cortisol levels I am hypoglyemic and secondary so my cortisl levels are low. I started on Cortef and my hypoglyemic is much better. Before I would wake up at 3am in a sweat from low sugar. I needed to eat something to get past this so I could go back to sleep.
    Quote Originally Posted by anyman View Post
    I've read several posts here commenting on a relationship between glucose levels and T levels (plus a variety of other hormones) and don't quite follow.

    How does being hypoglyemic, if that's the right term, and/or insulin resistance tie into T levels, etc? What is the cause & effect?

    Assuming there is a connection, what would a person do? Should the glycemic index of foods be more carefully observed? Anything else?

    I am really starting to wonder if just living sends our T levels plummeting. Seems like pretty much everything we eat, touch, breath or even look at has this effect, or so it seems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    Only way to find out is get the finger up the ass..
    i had dht 175 and e2 of 19 and still my prostrate way 50% enlarged !! another reason i swtiched to injections !!
    My urologist is like 6'4 and has hands the size of a basketball player. I was like "Can't you get one of those little, pretty assistants in here for this? "
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I am frustrated because they did not do my pregnenolone levels.
    About my lower DHT not sure how much it is form less testosterone getting in my blood. Before I used Androgel. Covered almost 50% of my body daily. Now 1gram of Tcrean that is 10x smaller area. Well now I doubled the dose I use 2grams of Tcream.
    Soon I will have to made up my mind what is acceptable (high) DHT level. Hate to use Avodart, pills have too big dose, cannot be cut. But there is Durastride at AG-Guys, it is liquid, I could use insulin syringe to get tiny daily dose.

    I did not forget ZMA and Fish oil.
    I use tonns of LEF products.
    ZMA=Vitamin B6 + Magnesium + Zinc
    my lattest blood test
    Magnesium 1.95mg/dL (1.50-2.50)
    Zinc 1051mcg/L (670-1240)
    --------------------------------
    Now looking at my good magnesium level, why am I getting mucle cramps after heavy dancing?
    Get that pregnenolone checked.

    Good to see your solid with ZMA. Any quality fish oil + Vit E? Carlsons already has Vit E added in if you can't get flameout.

    Where specifically do you get cramps?
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Get that pregnenolone checked.

    Good to see your solid with ZMA. Any quality fish oil + Vit E? Carlsons already has Vit E added in if you can't get flameout.

    Where specifically do you get cramps?
    Most often I get cramps in my calfs.
    But somotimes in my feet, my big toe get turned in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Most often I get cramps in my calfs.
    But somotimes in my feet, my big toe get turned in.
    Gotcha.

    Have you ever heard of ART(active release technique)? I cannot speak HIGHLY enough about it. It is spreading like wildfire as the new, cutting edge way to treat carpel tunnel and other muscle injuries. Find one in your area, or let me know were you are at and I can find one.

    What is going is probably just tiny amounts of scar tissue that builds up over time and needs worked out.

    Jans, when out dancing I see you in really nice, shiny dress shoes. Remember these are crap for your feet. Spend the money on expensive, italian dress shoes as these are better and more comfortable for your feet.

    I like mephistos. Quality, italian and hand made. expensive. But like everything else, totally worth the extra dime. Buy a pair and they last for years. Mephisto, manufacturer of shoes
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Gotcha.

    Have you ever heard of ART(active release technique)? I cannot speak HIGHLY enough about it. It is spreading like wildfire as the new, cutting edge way to treat carpel tunnel and other muscle injuries. Find one in your area, or let me know were you are at and I can find one.

    What is going is probably just tiny amounts of scar tissue that builds up over time and needs worked out.

    Jans, when out dancing I see you in really nice, shiny dress shoes. Remember these are crap for your feet. Spend the money on expensive, italian dress shoes as these are better and more comfortable for your feet.

    I like mephistos. Quality, italian and hand made. expensive. But like everything else, totally worth the extra dime. Buy a pair and they last for years. Mephisto, manufacturer of shoes
    I am at ZIP 07054

    Mephisto are fine walking shoes.

    For Standard Ballroom I am using Werner Kern Men's 28017
    Dance Shoes Dancing Shoes Latin Swing Tango Salsa - Online Store
    They are the best that fits me.
    I tried other famous brands but they do not work as good for me.
    If you ever want good looking pants you may order here.
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