Dr John & Others - Hypothyroid + Testosterone Issues?
04-17-2007 10:22 AM
Dr John & Others - Hypothyroid + Testosterone Issues?
Can someone explain to me what causes your TSH to jump from 0.65 (almost "hyperthyroid" level) to 2.5 while taking external test? I don't have any other thyroid results to hand, but most of the symptoms of hypothyroid (or at least 'sub-clinical' level). I have heard a TSH at 2.0 is cause for alarm because the new ranges have been dropped down to 3.0. Does LH have a role to play in thyroid? Even without external test (just varicocele) my TSH went up to 1.8 in the space of 3 months. I am guessing my body tried to lower temp caused by increased blood flow to testicle.
Symptoms i have noticed:
Dry Skin (knuckles, knees, feet, ears, face)
Low body temp (cold feet/hands/penis/testicles)
Low Energy (though still capable of working)
Lack of penile sensation/Penis shrinkage
Joint Pain in wrists, knees and shoulders
While on TRT i didn't notice really any improvements in the above, in fact i believe adding external testosterone put my TSH up even higher and made the symptoms worse. My joint's started feeling allot worse than before in fact while on IM injections of test.
Before i got a varicocele my LH was was 3.9 and FSH normal also. Since the varicocele has came along my test dropped but my thyroid (TSH) went up a great deal too (to 1.8). While this wasn''t hypothyroid at this stage i was noticing lack of penile sensation, problems with erections, joint pain, dry skin, etc. My E2 wasn't really low at this stage either (75 - normal range: 75 - 180). I wasn't on any testosterone treatment at this stage.
Does high E2 lower TSH? It's strange because men with high E2 don't seem to have half the symptoms i do, so i am really starting to think this is thyroid related.
My theory is that the varicocele caused over-heating of my scrotum and in turn caused my thyroid to cool my body temp down by upping my TSH. This in turn effected testicular blood flow, penile blood flow, feet, hands and other areas, giving problems like dry skin, being cold all the time, etc.
What are the best suppliments to take to lower TSH? Would HCG give a good drop in TSH if i was taking it daily? Would it improve blood flow in general around my body?
04-17-2007 10:59 AM
Forget about TSH,
Originally Posted by Megazoid
do not test for TSH.
Test FreeT3 and FreeT4
come back with those test results.
Forget about varicocele.
Take proper amount of testosterone, you will feel better in your head.
Also balls will shrink and you will forget about varicocele.
Give you pines a chance, adjust T and E2 and hold those at proper level for a year. Things work slow there.
04-17-2007 06:38 PM
Megazoid I would recommend checking out the following for all things to do with the Thyroid;
Dr. Murray Natural Living | Hypothyroidism
04-23-2007 06:24 PM
Megazoid, you were right! TSH level was 2.5, same as yours. I believe this is a major reason for my lack of penile sensation and non erections even when masturbating. My GP told me this was "normal" and 90% of this is "all in the mind" even not getting morning erections, apparently your lucky if you do! I couldn't believe my ears but just had to accept it
I have looked up the ranges etc from about.com and this could not be ideal for "me" it seems and hypothyroidism could well be whats messing me up, or partly. My total testosterone level was very high 29, I don't know if this is good or bad given my symptoms. When I get more extensive blood work done I will have to check into a private clinic and will request more insight into this, plus Free T3 and T4 levels amongst everything else like Free and bio available T.
As far as suppliments go I don't know what more I can do except add a good multivit including all the essential minerals etc to aid this. It does seem a similar situation, maybe this is why I find it impossible to gain weight?
04-23-2007 07:29 PM
Cjones, i am in a way pleased to have figured this one out because i think i am on the road to helping ALLOT of guy's with this problem now. Too much focus has been on T/E2/DHT/Free:BioT, etc where the real problem is thyroid.
Because we are both very skinny there is a good chance we have naturally low E2.
What's making it more complex however is trying to figure out WHAT caused the thyroid change when T was high (in your case) and E2 most likely in balance. Very confusing...
Do you have ANY signs of varicocele on your testicles? This is very important as i believe a strong link exisits between thyroid and varicocele. To keep thing's simple, varicocele causes testicular over-heating, the body tries to compensate by lowering body temp which results in higher TSH, thus a link to hypothyroid symptoms.
Do you feel you have ANY other symptoms linked with hypothyroidism?
You see my T was high at one point (similar to your's at 25.2nmol - also high) but my TSH was 0.65 and i never had a SINGLE symptom of either hypogonadism or hypothyroidism. Anytime i applied more TRT my TSH would go up and up. I have since stopped TRT and actually have gotten MORE erections in the morning than on TRT. Talk about weird!
I ordered a home testing based salivia thyroid panel kit which i am going to run tomorrow. You get a day's worth of test tubes to fill with salivia and then you post them back special delivery and wait a few week's on the results. They check everything from insulin, thyroid (full panel), adrenals, etc. It cost's around £141 but gives a VERY clear indication of what is going on here in our sitautions.
I am guessing your sex hormones are all good. Your total t is very high, so i wouldn't worry too much about your piturity or testicles working, it seem's they do. We both need to look more into thyroid.
Some suppliments i am going to start this week (wednesday most likely) are "Sea Kelp (30mg) daily)" and "Selenium". Both of these are VERY important for thyroid.
Iodine is the main mineral required to make thyroid hormones, so it's important if you want to keep thyroid optimized and functional. Selenium helps with the conversation between thyroid hormones. "Kelp" has the highest dosage of iodine available, so it's worth making sure you aren't low on it.
Other recommend suppliments are as follows:
100-500 milligrams of L-Phenylalanine or L-tyrosine (for 2 weeks)
Vit B6, C, folic acid and copper in addition to the above.
Vit B12 (Correlated with lack of penile sensation also).
I would like to speak with you in either email, pm or phone if possible, we need to work together to solve this. We are not going to get help from GP's.
04-23-2007 09:12 PM
Hi Megazoid, I am glad things seem to be more clear with this now, the whole TRT thing seemed a worry to me being in our 20s I wouldn't like to risk my HPTA if it could make me worse than I am now.
The whole thyroid thing makes sense with my "crazy penis" size like when I am sitting down being "hung", walking round to doing exercise - strangely enough of all times feeling like nothing is there at all, total atrophy. This can give you a downer on working out at all
Tell me about confused, I have been for so long. Things just went terribly wrong and I am just getting used to feeling half human again.
As far as my testicles go I haven't noticed any signs of varicocele, for instance pain, lumpy scrotum or anything like the atrophy my penis has suffered. I think for the most part depending on circumstance my balls hang ok
I suppose the symptoms could be similar to low T, besides the ED, lack of sensation, labido and poor sperm production there is a lot of other stuff like lethargy, difficulty concentrating and I have had bowl troubles in the past
Let me know how the thyroid test panel kit works out. I have been looking around anti-aging clinics etc that aren't afraid to do extensive blood tests and assessment of our situation. I would like to be assessed and monitored for all that thyroid and adrenal stuff so I can get some sort of clarity and diagnosis. The cost is not an issue for peace of mind and I won't bother my GP about this again, its not good for my mental health!
For the time being I will try to start learning more and probably supplimenting with Sea Kelp to see if that helps. With iodine I think I read things like veggies especially consumed raw can inhibit the bodys absorption. I think soy also increases the requirements for iodine in the body. This all seems to be amplified when levels are low. I have a good multivit that contains selenium, folic acid, iodine (from pacific kelp powder) and copper at the 100% daily value. Them amino acids are also included, but are part of a 225mg amino acid blend. I think just adding sea kelp with this and a fish oil is a good start
I will pm you my email addy if you want and no problems with PM's, another symptom of editing this now.. Insomnia!!
07-12-2007 05:57 PM
Soy = The Devil
Originally Posted by cjones84
07-14-2007 12:15 PM
An increased tsh says that yr body is trying to produce more thyriod hormones and in doing so trying to increase yr bodys temperature if anything.
Originally Posted by Megazoid
U also mentioned TRH beeing produced in the testicles b4. Can u please show me where u seen/heard this as it sounds weird to me. thx
07-14-2007 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by nallepuh
Increased TSH should normally point to a slow, non-responsive, thyroid.
TSH is the signal from the pituitary, which signals the thyroid to produce it's hormones
TRH is a hypothalamic hormone that signals the pituitary to produce TSH.
07-14-2007 06:55 PM
Thats what i said but in other words? his theory was that increased tsh was producing less of body heat to cool testicles down, but its prolly the other way around if anything, if his body was trying to lower temp it would lower tsh if anything.
Originally Posted by smc252
And yes TRH is produced in the hypothalamus for all i know but mega said in another post that testicle had 3 purposes namely: testosterone, sperm and to produce TRH, this is why i asked cause ive never heard this b4. Im not trying to prove mega wrong either, im mearly interesting in learning everything about this so i can apply to myself. Sounds weird so i asked. But if its true it would explain why so many ppl on testosterone are having hypothyriod issues aswell. This is why i asked.
07-14-2007 08:10 PM
Most of my post was directed towards him.
Originally Posted by nallepuh
Sounds like you understand how TSH works. A high TSH = slow thyroid, slow metabolism, cooler body temp. A low tsh = hyperthyroid, and thus higher metabolism and higher body temperatures.
But I see what was being said. Also remember, the thyroid not only changes the body-temperature, it effects EVERY CELL in the body. (Even testicular cells.)
I have read before that hyperthyroid guys eventually went primary hypogonadal, as their leydig cells literally burnt out.
I too never heard about TRH being testicular, I am pretty sure it is not. It is a hypothalamus-produced signal made for the pituitary.
The low testosterone symptoms are very similar, and some even the same as hypothyroidism. If the person has BOTH issues, which easily happens through the pituitary, and fixes one.. The other issue is more easily pointed out.
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