IC3, in some DIM products, possibly unsafe - AnabolicMinds.com

IC3, in some DIM products, possibly unsafe

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    IC3, in some DIM products, possibly unsafe



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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Don't forget that Zeligs invented DIM and owns the patent rights. While it doesn't mean that what he writes is wrong or dishonest, it casts it in a different light.
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    True, but he could also add in IC3 if he wanted to. Just pointing out a few studies
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpeil2 View Post
    Don't forget that Zeligs invented DIM and owns the patent rights. While it doesn't mean that what he writes is wrong or dishonest, it casts it in a different light.
    Wonder if there is anyting specific in regard to DIM Indolplex.
    As some people are claiming that when taken too much their E2 goes down too much. It will be good to know if those claims are supported by blood test or just by individual's impression of what is happening.

    My understanding is that DIM alone affect only ratio of good/bad Estrones and do not change E2 levels. To do that something else is needed.
    Last edited by Dr. John; 04-22-2007 at 02:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Wonder if there is anyting specific in regard to DIM Indolplex.
    As some people are claiming that when taken too much their E2 goes down too much. It will be good to know if those claims are supported by blood test or just by individual's impression of what is happening.

    My understanding is that DIM alone affect only ratio of good/bad Estrones and do not change E2 levels. To do that something else is needed.
    We shall find out in a few months as I will start DIM soon and plan on getting retested.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    We shall find out in a few months as I will start DIM soon and plan on getting retested.
    If you buy premise that DIM does not reduce E2 but changes the good/bad esrones ratio, then the proper test would be urine test, say, from rheinlabs.
    Home
    before and after.

    If you want to check E2, blood test, before and after.
    It gets pricey and busy when one have urge to know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Dr. Zeligs' highly proprietary comments have now been dispelled.
    Please provide details, references.

    For now I take that DIM should be taken with I3C,
    so products such as Indolplex or similar are not as effective as those that also contain I3C.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    It looks that way to me right now, too.
    Gotcha Doc!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    I am presently hard at work getting to the bottom of this important issue. Will make full report in the near future.
    That is why it is called cutting edge.

    What in a blood or/and urine test are you watching?

    Any itsy bitsy hints.
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    Here is a link about this it is my understanding that 13c converts into DIM in the stomach. The problem is most of the 13c gets killed in the stomach. Because of the OTC supplement industry and all there hipe one can't believe any of there crap to get you to buy there product.
    So what works beats me I have had dam good luck with Indolpex/DIM and others have gotten lower cost DIM and took it with a tsp of Olive oil saying this keeps it from getting killed in the stomach. I never tried this because what I was using worked.
    I3C/DIM

    Here is a cut and paste from this link.
    Indole-3-Carbinol (IC3)
    ============================== =====================

    Inside Broccoli
    I've heard quite a bit about a broccoli extract called indole-3-carbinol (I3C). What is the difference between it and the other broccoli extract called diindolylmethane (DIM)?

    To answer that question, a little biochemistry is in order. Indole-3-carbinol (I3C) is a secondary metabolite found in cruciferous vegetables such as broccoli, cauliflower, kale, cabbage and brussels sprouts. A secondary metabolite is one not found preformed in vegetables, but formed after an enzyme in the vegetable (myrosinase) is exposed to a phytochemcial in the vegetable (glucobrassicin). This can occur only when vegetable cells are crushed or eaten, and is referred to as enzymatic hydrolysis.

    I3C, thus formed, is then broken down in the presence of acid (as in the acid environment of the stomach) to various by-products such as diindolylmethane (DIM), which are then absorbed.

    Why is this important? Because I3C has been shown to inhibit cancer cells in animal cancer models of the mammary, liver, and lung.5-7 It is currently being evaluated in human clinical trials as a potential chemopreventive agent against breast and ovarian cancers.8

    I3C appears to work by upregulating or modulating certain enzymes that improve the detoxification of various potential carcinogens—although it appears to be the breakdown products that have this effect rather than IC3 itself. Furthermore, it is not clear that DIM is the only breakdown product of importance.9

    Certainly DIM by itself has an effect, but these other products may also be important for the overall cancer-inhibiting action. As most of the research to date has focused on I3C, it seems prudent at this time to use supplements containing I3C instead of DIM. Just make sure you take it with meals and have sufficient acidifying capacity in your stomach.

    Dan Lukaczer, N.D., is director of clinical research at the Functional Medicine Research Center, a division of Metagenics Inc., in Gig Harbor, Wash.
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    When I see what LEF came out with in their DIM product, I see that they decided to not to put their money on DIM only but also on many related products that are in brocoli.
    They also added Resveratol, which is derived from grapes skins, and other estrogen regulating supplements.
    But I see that they decided to put a lot of just brocoli and let the body pick what it needs.
    Supplement Facts
    Serving Size 1 capsule

    Servings Per Container 60

    Amount Per Serving
    Broccoli (Brassica oleracea l.) Super Concentrate Extract
    400 mg

    (plant and sprouts) [std. to 4% glucosinolates (16 mg)]



    Watercress (Nasturtium officinale) 4:1 Extract (leaf)
    100 mg

    Indole-3-Carbinol (I3C)
    80 mg


    Rosemary (Rosmarinus officinalis) Extract (leaves)
    50 mg

    [std. to 20% diterpenic compounds (10 mg) and


    providing carnosic acid/carnosol]


    Cat's Claw (Uncaria tomentosa) Extract (bark)
    50 mg

    [std. to 8% carboxy alkyl esters (4 mg)]


    Resveratrol [from Red Grape (Vitis vinifera) Extract
    20 mg

    (whole fruit) and Polygonum cuspidatum Extract (root)]


    DIM (Di-indolyl-methane)
    14 mg
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    Nothing earth shattering, but in this sample report by laboratory that does urine tests, they suggest I3C before DIM as a means of improving 2/16 ratio.
    Additionally, they do not say anything about lowering total amount of Estrone (E1) just adjusting ratio.
    I mention this as there is also debate going if DIM lowers E2 (I think it does not).

    http://www.adltests.com/2075320_2416OH_761.pdf
    Quote:
    "URINE E1 METABOLITE RATIO 2(OH):16a(OH)
    A ratio of 2-OH Estrone to 16aOH Estrone greater than 2.0 is desirable.
    A ratio less than 2.0 may increase the risk of cancer.
    Patients with a ratio less than 2.0 may benefit from a modification in diet and
    lifestyle.
    The supplementation of the diet with phytoestrogens may further improve the
    ratio.
    A high protein, low fat diet rich in dietary sources of indole-3-carbinol may
    also improve the 2/16 ratio. Diindolylmethane (DIM) has also been shown to
    improve the 2/16 ratio."

    Price list:
    http://www.adltests.com/ADL_REQUEST_FOR_RETAIL.pdf
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    Lots of info, but if you pro's would do me a favor, which one do you guys think is best cost/effectiveness.

    Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoadBlocK View Post
    Lots of info, but if you pro's would do me a favor, which one do you guys think is best cost/effectiveness.

    Thanks.
    Dr Nick Delgados has a big, healthy dose of DIM. This is the one I will be using soon

    Estroblock with I3C -60 count
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    The list of men that had good luck on Indolplex/DIM is dam long.
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    Seems to me that you would get more product for your dollar buying Nick Delgados DIM+13C and Biotests Resveratrol(100mg per capsule).

    I eat lots of Broccoli anyways, as well as lots of green veggies, as in I buy them in bulk frozen. Plus the added benefits of the fiber and vitamins/minerals they contain(lots of calcium to boot)
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Seems to me that you would get more product for your dollar buying Nick Delgados DIM+13C and Biotests Resveratrol(100mg per capsule).

    I eat lots of Broccoli anyways, as well as lots of green veggies, as in I buy them in bulk frozen. Plus the added benefits of the fiber and vitamins/minerals they contain(lots of calcium to boot)
    Have you seen this link it is old but I think you will like it.
    http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/For...&highlight=dim

    I don't use DIM anymore it did not work when I got my levels higher because I can handle 2 tablets a day they made me very sick. So I use Arimidex and it works dam good for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmgamer18 View Post
    Have you seen this link it is old but I think you will like it.
    Estrogen - Cutting Edge Muscle Forums

    I don't use DIM anymore it did not work when I got my levels higher because I can handle 2 tablets a day they made me very sick. So I use Arimidex and it works dam good for me.
    THANK YOU! More good info

    I do not worry about cooking veggies, as in I don't really cook them much, just a little sauttee to get them from frozen to luke warm, nothing that doesn't naturally happen when they hit the stomach acids anyways at 98 plus degrees, LOL.

    I would imagine frying the heck out of any fruit/veggie to be different.

    By the way, try sauttee frozen blueberries. Yummy

    And I do not own or eat anything from a microwave. An experiement a friend showed me once about how a plant cannot grow from microwaved water changed my perspective real quick.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmgamer18 View Post

    I don't use DIM anymore it did not work when I got my levels higher because I can handle 2 tablets a day they made me very sick. So I use Arimidex and it works dam good for me.
    You are switching between Indolplex DIM and Arimidex quite often.
    I always wondered if that is because of your body requirements or something in Indolplex, do you have any explanation?

    Have you ever done urine test to check your 2/16 estrone ratio?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    You are switching between Indolplex DIM and Arimidex quite often.
    I always wondered if that is because of your body requirements or something in Indolplex, do you have any explanation?

    Have you ever done urine test to check your 2/16 estrone ratio?
    I don't take Idnolplex/DIM anymore because when I switched to shots from gels I found with my TT and FT levels higher I had no more joint and muscle pain and felt much better. Yet doing shots 150mgs every week and HCG 500mgs 3 x's a week drove up my E2 levels. The Indolplex/DIM would keep it down but I had to do 2 tablets and this made me sick bad headaches and upset stomach. So my Dr. had me try both at first this worked good but in time I started breaking out in a bad rash on the back of my legs and under my arms. So we just did Arimidex but to keep my levels down I had to take one pill a day. After reading Dr. Shippen was doing shots every 3 days I got my Dr. to let me try this but he would not let me do subQ. So now I do 50 mgs. of 200mgs./ml of Depo T = .25 mls every 3 days and the 2 days each in between I do 250 IU's of HCG. Now I only take .5 mgs of Arimidex every other day.

    Never did a urine test on anything. My BCBS is getting cut by the yr. I am retired Union Engineer from Chry. I live in MI. and everyone is hurting here I feel we are in a Depression here. Gas is now $3.00 a gal. and when we go out during the time people are coming home from work there is not traffic just 2 yrs. ago you could not move from light to light it would take you 2 to 3 lights to get accorss the street. I need to watch my money we have one Son in Law out of work from the Auto Co.'s and we don't see any sign of things getting better.

    And you know in the past what happens in MI. ends up happening accross the country. I may have my kids and there kids moving back with us if things dont' get better. High gas prices mean low car sales. Every one in my family works for the auto co's.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmgamer18 View Post
    I don't take Idnolplex/DIM anymore because when I switched to shots from gels I found with my TT and FT levels higher I had no more joint and muscle pain and felt much better. Yet doing shots 150mgs every week and HCG 500mgs 3 x's a week drove up my E2 levels. The Indolplex/DIM would keep it down but I had to do 2 tablets and this made me sick bad headaches and upset stomach. So my Dr. had me try both at first this worked good but in time I started breaking out in a bad rash on the back of my legs and under my arms. So we just did Arimidex but to keep my levels down I had to take one pill a day. After reading Dr. Shippen was doing shots every 3 days I got my Dr. to let me try this but he would not let me do subQ. So now I do 50 mgs. of 200mgs./ml of Depo T = .25 mls every 3 days and the 2 days each in between I do 250 IU's of HCG. Now I only take .5 mgs of Arimidex every other day.

    Never did a urine test on anything. My BCBS is getting cut by the yr. I am retired Union Engineer from Chry. I live in MI. and everyone is hurting here I feel we are in a Depression here. Gas is now $3.00 a gal. and when we go out during the time people are coming home from work there is not traffic just 2 yrs. ago you could not move from light to light it would take you 2 to 3 lights to get accorss the street. I need to watch my money we have one Son in Law out of work from the Auto Co.'s and we don't see any sign of things getting better.

    And you know in the past what happens in MI. ends up happening accross the country. I may have my kids and there kids moving back with us if things dont' get better. High gas prices mean low car sales. Every one in my family works for the auto co's.

    Bummer about DIM, but you might have a very slight alergy to some compound in vegetables or something that is irritated by taking DIM. Who knows, Im no allergy expert. Arimidex is the way for you to go. Still, you might want to try something like dermacrine sustain, where you get the AI properties but also alot of health properties to boot.

    I feel ya about Michigan bro. Things are getting worse here by the day. Its crazy. In my old neighborhood just outside of detroit, the neighborhood is littered with for sale signs everywhere. Peoples homes are getting foreclosed everywhere. My father retired from chrysler as well. By seeing what is happening here it is really motivating me to finish college and get out of here! Chicago is my goal.

    And yes, michigan is often a signal for what follows the rest. If that happens, ya'll are screwed LOL.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmgamer18 View Post
    I don't take Idnolplex/DIM anymore because when I switched to shots from gels I found with my TT and FT levels higher I had no more joint and muscle pain and felt much better. Yet doing shots 150mgs every week and HCG 500mgs 3 x's a week drove up my E2 levels. The Indolplex/DIM would keep it down but I had to do 2 tablets and this made me sick bad headaches and upset stomach. So my Dr. had me try both at first this worked good but in time I started breaking out in a bad rash on the back of my legs and under my arms. So we just did Arimidex but to keep my levels down I had to take one pill a day. After reading Dr. Shippen was doing shots every 3 days I got my Dr. to let me try this but he would not let me do subQ. So now I do 50 mgs. of 200mgs./ml of Depo T = .25 mls every 3 days and the 2 days each in between I do 250 IU's of HCG. Now I only take .5 mgs of Arimidex every other day.

    Never did a urine test on anything. My BCBS is getting cut by the yr. I am retired Union Engineer from Chry. I live in MI. and everyone is hurting here I feel we are in a Depression here. Gas is now $3.00 a gal. and when we go out during the time people are coming home from work there is not traffic just 2 yrs. ago you could not move from light to light it would take you 2 to 3 lights to get accorss the street. I need to watch my money we have one Son in Law out of work from the Auto Co.'s and we don't see any sign of things getting better.

    And you know in the past what happens in MI. ends up happening accross the country. I may have my kids and there kids moving back with us if things dont' get better. High gas prices mean low car sales. Every one in my family works for the auto co's.
    You are not alone.
    My son moved already back (with his cat), that takes care of one bedroom.
    My daughter and her husband are toying with idea of renting their house and moving in to her's old room + grandma's room + double garage. Family room is already ocupied by my grandson.
    I hope to keep my little corner with computer.
    Luckily they are all are working (just not making any real money).

    We all drive American cars, except I did not had a hearth when buying car for my son last year, I bough him Hyundai.
    --------------------------------------------------
    No matter what anybody says,
    America is still great country.
    ============================== =========
    Back to bussiness;
    I suggest you try other DIM, LEF Dual-Action or Nick Delgado's.
    I suspect there is something in Indolplex that hurts you and it is not a DIM.
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    Nope I am doing Ok with Arimidex and don't want to change a thing. You need to understand when you have it right and you change it you my end up worse and not get back. It took me yrs. to get this right so I am staying put.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    You are not alone.
    My son moved already back (with his cat), that takes care of one bedroom.
    My daughter and her husband are toying with idea of renting their house and moving in to her's old room + grandma's room + double garage. Family room is already ocupied by my grandson.
    I hope to keep my little corner with computer.
    Luckily they are all are working (just not making any real money).

    We all drive American cars, except I did not had a hearth when buying car for my son last year, I bough him Hyundai.
    --------------------------------------------------
    No matter what anybody says,
    America is still great country.
    ============================== =========
    Back to bussiness;
    I suggest you try other DIM, LEF Dual-Action or Nick Delgado's.
    I suspect there is something in Indolplex that hurts you and it is not a DIM.
    Yep, Im going with Nick Delgados.

    You want to talk about a full house? I live with 4 other people, all of us in our 20's, one big crazy party house.
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    :chick: :chick:
    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Yep, Im going with Nick Delgados.

    You want to talk about a full house? I live with 4 other people, all of us in our 20's, one big crazy party house.
    From what I know about you the other 3 must be a D-cup, 5'-6", 120# girls.
    Do not be a (xxx), invite me when you have a wet T-shirt party.
    I will come with Flameout.

    :chick:
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    :chick: :chick:

    From what I know about you the other 3 must be a D-cup, 5'-6", 120# girls.
    Do not be a (xxx), invite me when you have a wet T-shirt party.
    I will come with Flameout.

    :chick:
    both 5'5 - 5'6, one is 115 the other is curvy in all the right places at 135.

    I woke up the other day and walked upstairs to find them both in the living room, in tank tops and short shorts doing this - Amazon.com: Carmen Electra's Aerobic Striptease: DVD: Michael Carson (II),Carmen Electra,Edward Lachman

    You bring flameout, I'll share all my secret recipes for veggie stir fry. And I keep the fridge stocked with Panna Bottled Water

    All joking aside, Im 45 min away from Dr John, you ever need to come see him, you have a place to stay
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    And I do not own or eat anything from a microwave. An experiement a friend showed me once about how a plant cannot grow from microwaved water changed my perspective real quick.
    Ridiculous!

    See:
    Urban Legends Reference Pages: Microwaved Water - See What It Does to Plants
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    [QUOTE=mranak;802360]Ridiculous!

    Thank you.
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