So John, About this Overshooting from HCG...

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    So John, About this Overshooting from HCG...


    my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary—but no more than 550IU SC QD.

    I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching its peak at roughly the 48-72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot its mark.
    I've been wondering for some time now and would like to find out more about this overshooting thing. I want to maximize the testosterone numbers in my body from the limited amount that I am prescribed - Would I have a higher testosterone average if I injected HCG the day before and on the day of my testosterone injection instead of the day before and the day before that? I have a feeling that the answer is no, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing out on a chance to further elevate my numbers.

    I currently inject .75 ml of test every 5 days, 250 iu of HCG the day before and two days before the test injection.

    -Blesum

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    Sorry about the first name reference, Dr. Crisler. Didn't realize that it would bother you.

    I've been reading up on the effects of aging and long term health for years and have come away with the general impression that the more muscle that is piled on during younger days, the easier it will be to hold on to that mass during the golden years.

    Having additional mass is supposed to improve the quality of life, reduce injuries, etc.

    So in short, I'm looking at maximizing the next 50-70 years of my life instead of only looking at right now. It seems like putting on additional mass now is the way to go. Having extra testosterone should make more feasible, no? Thus my interest in raising my testosterone levels closer to the upper ranges using the least amount of testosterone cyp since I only can legally get a limited amount of that and do not want to risk my career going to the dark side or using "legal" prohormones/prosteriods.

    At my last drawing, my peak was almost at 800 ng/dl with my trough at about 450 ng/dl before HCG was incorporated (1 1/2 weeks ago). Normal high end testosterone levels for healthy males are at 1100 and 1200 depending on who one asks. I'd like to get closer to those numbers safely.

    HRT has HELPED a lot ever since I started only 5 or so months ago, but to want more is human nature.

    Thoughts?

    -Blesum
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    Dr. Crisler, I said I was sorry.

    Might as well 86 this subject and quite possibly my user name at this point.

    -Blesum
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blesum View Post
    Sorry about the first name reference, Dr. Crisler. Didn't realize that it would bother you.

    I've been reading up on the effects of aging and long term health for years and have come away with the general impression that the more muscle that is piled on during younger days, the easier it will be to hold on to that mass during the golden years.

    Having additional mass is supposed to improve the quality of life, reduce injuries, etc.

    So in short, I'm looking at maximizing the next 50-70 years of my life instead of only looking at right now. It seems like putting on additional mass now is the way to go. Having extra testosterone should make more feasible, no? Thus my interest in raising my testosterone levels closer to the upper ranges using the least amount of testosterone cyp since I only can legally get a limited amount of that and do not want to risk my career going to the dark side or using "legal" prohormones/prosteriods.

    At my last drawing, my peak was almost at 800 ng/dl with my trough at about 450 ng/dl before HCG was incorporated (1 1/2 weeks ago). Normal high end testosterone levels for healthy males are at 1100 and 1200 depending on who one asks. I'd like to get closer to those numbers safely.

    HRT has HELPED a lot ever since I started only 5 or so months ago, but to want more is human nature.

    Thoughts?

    -Blesum

    My take:
    Do not put emphasis on Total Testosterone.
    Get your BioavailableTestosterone=5.5(n mol/L)
    Let the TT and FreeT fall where they may.
    MESO-Rx - View Single Post - Attention all those on Sub-q injections
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    I wish I could collect similar information/opinion on
    BioAvailableEstradiol (37.5-73.4)pg/mL
    page 62 of:
    http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp/...3rdEd_2004.pdf

    Or at least numbers that healthy young men have.
    Please help if you have that info.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Speaking of (2-Hydroxy-Estrone), (16a-Hydroxy-estrone), (4-Hydroxy-estrone)
    what is the number for desirable ratio.
    Somebody who had this test done, please speak up and share information.
    rheinlabs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blesum View Post
    Sorry about the first name reference, Dr. Crisler. Didn't realize that it would bother you.

    I've been reading up on the effects of aging and long term health for years and have come away with the general impression that the more muscle that is piled on during younger days, the easier it will be to hold on to that mass during the golden years.

    Having additional mass is supposed to improve the quality of life, reduce injuries, etc.

    So in short, I'm looking at maximizing the next 50-70 years of my life instead of only looking at right now. It seems like putting on additional mass now is the way to go. Having extra testosterone should make more feasible, no? Thus my interest in raising my testosterone levels closer to the upper ranges using the least amount of testosterone cyp since I only can legally get a limited amount of that and do not want to risk my career going to the dark side or using "legal" prohormones/prosteriods.

    At my last drawing, my peak was almost at 800 ng/dl with my trough at about 450 ng/dl before HCG was incorporated (1 1/2 weeks ago). Normal high end testosterone levels for healthy males are at 1100 and 1200 depending on who one asks. I'd like to get closer to those numbers safely.

    HRT has HELPED a lot ever since I started only 5 or so months ago, but to want more is human nature.

    Thoughts?

    -Blesum

    Blesum,
    Im not sure I agree with your philosophy on this. I think all those pounds of additional muscle may or may not help. My intuition tells me that the human body is probably best suited being a lean, flexible machine. Basically how you look now! To many people are hell bent on changing the way they look but instead should be doing everything to change the way they FEEL.

    I also don't think its a good idea to shoot for those ranges of numbers either. Who knows what effects, good or bad, having a t level of 1200 will have on a 50 year old. I think its best to shoot for ranges of healthy males 24 - 30. 600 - 800 would be a great range to stick with.

    And yea, if Dr Johns protocol is working for you, stick with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Why would you say something like that?
    Dr. Crisler, many of us (myself included) take what you share as the gospel. If one of the flock pisses you off, well, that person is most likely SOL. Might have difficulty in soliciting advice/help of others here in the future. Time will tell.



    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    My take:
    Do not put emphasis on Total Testosterone.
    Get your BioavailableTestosterone=5.5(n mol/L)
    Let the TT and FreeT fall where they may.
    ]
    Last bloodwork (trough) before HCG:
    Free Testosterone 8.95 ng/dl = 2.27%
    Bioavailable Testosterone 238 ng/dl = 60.4%

    Endo does not have me scheduled for any more draws in the near future. I should ask for a couple so I can find out how the HCG has changed things for me. Still wondering if I should shift my HCG injections back to the old pattern that Dr. Crisler used before the recent change.

    -Blesum
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    Thanks for chiming in, Plymouth.

    You bring up some good points. I do look and feel great now, but I see so many frail old men around who can barely get around and I do not want to become one of them as I get older. It's one of my biggest fears.

    My family does not retain muscle well. My natural body weight is around 150 (endo with a small frame - Biceps are about 14.5" for reference to my avatar picture) and I'm currently at 177 after years of training, and solid nutrition.

    I was figuring on trying for 10-20 more pounds until my body won't allow me to gain anymore, and then with the addition of GH to hold off some of the aging effects should provide for a very gradual decline into my last days.

    -Blesum
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blesum View Post
    Thanks for chiming in, Plymouth.

    You bring up some good points. I do look and feel great now, but I see so many frail old men around who can barely get around and I do not want to become one of them as I get older. It's one of my biggest fears.

    My family does not retain muscle well. My natural body weight is around 150 (endo with a small frame - Biceps are about 14.5" for reference to my avatar picture) and I'm currently at 177 after years of training, and solid nutrition.

    I was figuring on trying for 10-20 more pounds until my body won't allow me to gain anymore, and then with the addition of GH to hold off some of the aging effects should provide for a very gradual decline into my last days.

    -Blesum

    Yea, but those old men aren't on T or GH

    And Im VERY VERY excited to see what medical science will be serving up 50 years from now
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blesum View Post
    Thanks for chiming in, Plymouth.

    You bring up some good points. I do look and feel great now, but I see so many frail old men around who can barely get around and I do not want to become one of them as I get older. It's one of my biggest fears.

    My family does not retain muscle well. My natural body weight is around 150 (endo with a small frame - Biceps are about 14.5" for reference to my avatar picture) and I'm currently at 177 after years of training, and solid nutrition.

    I was figuring on trying for 10-20 more pounds until my body won't allow me to gain anymore, and then with the addition of GH to hold off some of the aging effects should provide for a very gradual decline into my last days.

    -Blesum
    Secret to prevent aging is stress reduction, Good night sleep. being happy with one self, having faith and providing the body with anitoxidents to offset the signs of aging. We are only as old as our mitochondrion are so take care of them well !!


    I do relaxation excersises before sleep each night and if i do not get to bed by 10 pm I can feel the difference a few hours make the next day. So any Dr telling me its mental stress related is full of crap, Like most of people withlong term bacterial infection even after the infection is gone your body is beat up and HPTA may not return to homeostais so it may need alittle help..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Y
    Now, once again, did you want me to tell you that I think some other protocol other than the one I use is actually, IMPO, better?
    I wanted to know if the older protocol would provide for a higher average testosterone count for the same amount of testosterone injected on a weekly basis.

    -Blesum
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blesum View Post
    Dr. Crisler, many of us (myself included) take what you share as the gospel. If one of the flock pisses you off, well, that person is most likely SOL. Might have difficulty in soliciting advice/help of others here in the future. Time will tell.





    Last bloodwork (trough) before HCG:
    Free Testosterone 8.95 ng/dl = 2.27%
    Bioavailable Testosterone 238 ng/dl = 60.4%

    Endo does not have me scheduled for any more draws in the near future. I should ask for a couple so I can find out how the HCG has changed things for me. Still wondering if I should shift my HCG injections back to the old pattern that Dr. Crisler used before the recent change.

    -Blesum
    Bioavailable Testosterone 238 ng/dl=8.25nmol/l
    http://www.get-back-on-track.com/en/tools/umrechner.php
    Try to get BAT=5.5nmol/l=159ng/dl
    MESO-Rx - View Single Post - Attention all those on Sub-q injections
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blesum View Post
    Sorry about the first name reference, Dr. Crisler. Didn't realize that it would bother you.

    I've been reading up on the effects of aging and long term health for years and have come away with the general impression that the more muscle that is piled on during younger days, the easier it will be to hold on to that mass during the golden years.

    Having additional mass is supposed to improve the quality of life, reduce injuries, etc.

    So in short, I'm looking at maximizing the next 50-70 years of my life instead of only looking at right now. It seems like putting on additional mass now is the way to go. Having extra testosterone should make more feasible, no? Thus my interest in raising my testosterone levels closer to the upper ranges using the least amount of testosterone cyp since I only can legally get a limited amount of that and do not want to risk my career going to the dark side or using "legal" prohormones/prosteriods.

    At my last drawing, my peak was almost at 800 ng/dl with my trough at about 450 ng/dl before HCG was incorporated (1 1/2 weeks ago). Normal high end testosterone levels for healthy males are at 1100 and 1200 depending on who one asks. I'd like to get closer to those numbers safely.

    HRT has HELPED a lot ever since I started only 5 or so months ago, but to want more is human nature.

    Thoughts?

    -Blesum
    It sounds like in addition to lacking respect for the Dr you are also looking at TRT for all the wrong reasons. Those of us following a TRT protocal are doing so for quality of life issues not to gain muscle (Just my personal opinion)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blesum View Post
    I currently inject .75 ml of test every 5 days, 250 iu of HCG the day before and two days before the test injection.
    -Blesum
    Quote Originally Posted by Blesum View Post
    Last bloodwork (trough) before HCG:
    Free Testosterone 8.95 ng/dl = 2.27%
    Bioavailable Testosterone 238 ng/dl = 60.4%

    Endo does not have me scheduled for any more draws in the near future. I should ask for a couple so I can find out how the HCG has changed things for me. Still wondering if I should shift my HCG injections back to the old pattern that Dr. Crisler used before the recent change.

    -Blesum
    So the blood test above is as under treatment by Dr John, right ??
    If not what were they?
    What changes have you made after you went with new doc?
    Are you satisfied with them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillfromNJ View Post
    It sounds like in addition to lacking respect for the Dr you are also looking at TRT for all the wrong reasons. Those of us following a TRT protocal are doing so for quality of life issues not to gain muscle (Just my personal opinion)
    HRT has HELPED a lot ever since I started only 5 or so months ago... By that, I meant that HRT IS helping with my quality of life (lack of motivation, drive, energy and focus). I am currently reaping those benefits. I am now looking at maximizing my long-term benefits and it's my belief that adding additional muscle and strength to carry into my later years will also maximize the quality of life. Am I wrong in that thinking?

    It just seems that maximizing my current HRT would be the smart thing.

    My question of what Dr. Crisler meant by "overshooting" still stands. Were the patients' testosterone levels going too high and then crashing before the next injection? Or was it just getting more elevated than Dr. Crisler wanted for his patients?

    I don't think my question is going to be answered here and I probably should stop beating this dead horse and find out on my own or elsewheres.

    JanSz, my treatments are not under Dr. Crisler, they are under my Endo, and based off of Dr. Crisler's papers and information found here on this forum. I did not make any changes to my HCG injections, they are currently based off of the latest recommendations from Dr. Crisler.

    -Blesum
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blesum View Post
    [I]
    My question of what Dr. Crisler meant by "overshooting" still stands. Were the patients' testosterone levels going too high and then crashing before the next injection? Or was it just getting more elevated than Dr. Crisler wanted for his patients?

    I don't think my question is going to be answered here and I probably should stop beating this dead horse and find out on my own or elsewheres.



    -Blesum
    If you were to go to All Things male and read the articles Dr John has written you will find the answer to your question on the best way to maintain T levels while on TRT using HCG.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blesum View Post
    HRT has HELPED a lot ever since I started only 5 or so months ago... By that, I meant that HRT IS helping with my quality of life (lack of motivation, drive, energy and focus). I am currently reaping those benefits.
    -----------
    JanSz, my treatments are not under Dr. Crisler, they are under my Endo, and based off of Dr. Crisler's papers and information found here on this forum. I did not make any changes to my HCG injections, they are currently based off of the latest recommendations from Dr. Crisler.

    -Blesum
    Well, I calculated your

    Bioavailable Testosterone 238 ng/dl=8.25nmol/l (5.5)

    how are you doing with managing estrogen?
    Check hematocrit.

    I suspect that you are doing great, and you have already quite maximized your testosterone by 50% (8.25/5.5=1.5)
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    how are you doing with managing estrogen?
    .25mg of armidex every 3 days.

    -Blesum
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blesum View Post
    .25mg of armidex every 3 days.

    -Blesum
    What is your E2 level.
    Are you checking only E2 or you do check also other estrogens.
    Have you tried DIM instead of Arimidex, it helps to improve good/bad ratio.
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