Penis Shrinkage (Softness/ED/Low Libido) - High E2 & Low E2 Symptoms
- 03-14-2007, 11:21 AM
Penis Shrinkage (Softness/ED/Low Libido) - High E2 & Low E2 Symptoms
Just looking for a bit of advice here.
I have noticed a constant "good day, very bad day" routine with my TRT, so something still isn't right. While allot of symptoms have improved, i am still getting joint pain in my knees and elbows and some dry skin on my knuckles and foreskin area.
I am not sure if this is "water retentation" as such but everytime i go into the shower, come out and dry myself, my body still seem's moist and 'sticky' like sweat but maybe holding water instead. This is difficult to describe but i am sure i have noticed some skin flushing also (a kind of redness). Could this be E2 related?
I have been experimenting with different dosages of Androgel to see which works best. It's ironic because on one hand i have the symptoms of low e2 but on the other hand i have the symptoms of high E2. It seem's to chop and change daily and some day's better than others. There is no way in hell i could have a proper relationship right now and my confidence is way down because of having atrophied nut's and a shrunk up ****! Great fun! Not to mention the fact getting erections is becoming near impossible.
To give a run down, basically if i apply the androgel at 6am by the time i reach work (which is roughly a 2 mile walk) my penis has went from hanging normal (to almost "semi" like) to shrunk up like a worm! I start work at 7.30. I have tried applying at 2am in the morning (if i am still up) and other times too. I take 1 ZMA before bed (roughly around 10pm) and have tried 2 to see if it helps reduce the symptoms, still no luck. I don't 'feel' like i have high E2 because i don't feel low on energy or have brain fog, yet libido and penis aren't working right. I can't get erections on demand and libido seem's low even though i still have thoughts of sex. I was applying the androgel on the usual areas at 10g's a day. The same thing "seemed" to happen no matter how much i was applying, i have tried 5g's, 7.5, 10g's, all giving the "wash out" penis look. Does anyone else experience anything like this?
I seem to be showing both low E2 and high E2 symptoms. Very strange...I am really skinny with little to no body fat so really can't understand this at all.
There is no point in me doing HCG right now until i get TRT working right first and so i can monitor correct.
Before i am asked to post recent blood work, i don't have any to hand but will be getting new blood work done next week for sure. So i will post up the results then. I am getting a 'sensative' E2 check done, free t, total t, dht, etc. This should give a better idea i hope.
I am thinking injections might work allot better and will give me a higher total T which might be what i need? Do injections give lower E2/DHT than androgel?
I will try altering the time of androgel application and amount used again. I will give 7.5 a try tomorrow, if this still dosen't work i will try .25mg of arimidex to see what happens, this might be all that's needed. I have tried DIM and still the same thing happens.
Any advice would be great!
- 03-14-2007, 04:09 PM
GEt proper labs done 2 weeks after starting androgel or get them to check up on your levels. Don't guess estrogen it can be atricky fellow
- 03-14-2007, 04:18 PM
How long have you been doing the Androgel? The reason I ask is that I herd it may take 3 to 4 months for levels to stabalize. Also are you under a Docs care and what does he say? What were your levels when you started HRT?
03-14-2007, 04:21 PM
03-14-2007, 04:43 PM
The problem is guy's, without androgel the problem was made even worse. I suffered varicocele which caused testicular atrophy (but not failure - i.e. elevated LH/FSH). So basically they werent' working properly for some reason and my pit did nothing about it. Not sure if testicular dysfunction causes elevated E2, i know it does in some cases.
Basically my levels were always going to float around between low and low normal, but never got back to what they were before.
Here is a complete hormonal rundown:
19.9.2006 (No Hormone Replacement Therapy - 1 week after getting varicocele - minimal testicular shrinkage):
Total T: 24.3 nmol/l (9.4 – 60.0)
05.10.2006 (No Hormone Replacement Therapy):
Total T: 15.2 nmol/l (14 – 40)
SHBG: 26.0 nmol/l (20 – 45)
Free Androgen Index: 58% (70 – 100)
Calculated Free Testosterone: 356.7 pmol/l (300 – 600)
FSH: 2.7 iu/l (0.7 – 6)
LH: 3.9 iu/l (0.8 – 6)
Estridol: 73 pmol/l (55 – 184)
TSH: 1.9 iu/l (0.4 – 5.5)
PSA: 0.2 ng/ml (0.2 – 4)
Free PSA: 0.2 ng/ml (0.1 – 2)
PSA ratio: 1.1 (0.09 – 0.5)
15.10.2006 (No Hormone Replacement Therapy)
Total T: 14.0 nmol (no ranges available)
23.10.2006 (TestoGel (50mg – 1 packet) daily for ¾ weeks):
FSH: 2.1 iu/l (0.7 – 11.1)
LH: 2.7 iu/l (0.8 – 7.6)
Estridol: 75 pmol/l (73 – 273)
Prolactin: 70 miu/l (53 – 360)
Total T: 25.2 nmol/l (6.93 – 28.1)
23.11.2006 (No Hormone Replacement Therapy - 1 week before varicocele operation):
Total T: 20.9 nmol/l (10 – 36.0)
SHBG: 20 nmol/l (6 – 45)
Free Androgen Index 104.5 (36 – 156)
LH: 3.9 U/L (2.0 – 8.6)
FSH: 2.2 U/L (1.0 – 4.5)
Prolactin : 169 Mu/L (0 – 400)
I have been on androgel (10g's - 2 packets) a day for the past month to month and half. I started with 5g's and the symptoms never improved much, so now i have tried 10g's for the past 3/4 weeks.
It costs way too much for me and my insurance (or UK health care) dosen't provide it so i think switching to Test E shot's once weekly might be better (and also reduce E2?).
Any advice would be good.
03-15-2007, 12:18 AM
Ive noted this before and I will note it again - BF percentage and E do NOT always go hand in hand. Im walking proof of this at 7% BF and a 6 pack with a E2 level of 43 (10 - 50).
I would be wary of waling to work immediately after applying androgel. You can very well perspire enough, even a very slight amount, but enough to slow or decrease absorbtion. A better option(if your job involves alot of sitting) would be to take packet of gel with you, show up to work 10 min early every day and apply in bathroom.
Symptoms of high E and low E are almost identical - except for one critical factor - Low E will lead to brittle, inelastic arteries - something you don't want. Post when available your E2 level.
Flush red skin and water retention can be a high e2 sign, but also thyroid issues and a host of other things.
03-15-2007, 06:15 AM
03-15-2007, 03:53 PM
03-15-2007, 08:46 PM
Thank you for all the replies guy's, really mean's allot. I made myself a promise i would nail this stuff by the end of the year.
I have another varicocele embolization lined up for next week and really, really praying this will help recover some natural test or at least take me out the water a bit (finger's crossed). This way i should respond better to HCG.
I am visiting the anti-aging clinic again next week and will post up labs.
03-16-2007, 09:11 AM
At the moment you testicles are not working to well, hopefully that will change.
Support them with HCG, 100IU every day, they will at least not deteriorate and will keep producing what they can.
Androgel is a lot of money, forget about it. Get testosterone injections, minimum twice weekly. Others will give you a brand, I do not know. Use only amount that will keep your
Total T ~750, do not get uptight about TT, BioT is what counts.
If you could get Tcream, 100mg/1gram, that would be ideal, very unobtrusive.
Get more of blood test, what you show is insufficient to have overall picture. Get Dr John recommended list or what I posted many times.
You Estradiol looks on low side.
Make mental assumption that your testicles will never work to your satisfaction.
I am not suggesting anything about your treatment of testicles, do the best you can.
I am just trying to get you thru daily life until you reach steady state with your varicocele problem.
I am not a doctor.
03-16-2007, 10:43 AM
Thanks for the reply JanSz, i agree fully with what you say. It's about getting the T problems fixed first then worrying about my nut's. Because my LH/FSH were normal i am hoping i see some improvements from the second embolization (the first one wasn't done right).
Good way of thinking about this JanSz, i wonder if your varicocele is still causing problems? Usually guy's with varicocele get a "blunted" response to HCG, so even though your size has increased (are your testicles roughly 1.5/2inches in length now?) maybe they aren't putting out enough T to give you the well being feeling. You mentioned them changing constiency, did this happen before TRT?
03-16-2007, 03:37 PM
#2. Today was my #21 HCG shot, day 41 since I started. My morning was different. Last time I took a Cialis was last Saturday. I still got nice wood, not only wood but my scrotum got quite tight. I suspect that my balls are starting to produce testosterone. If so, my current external dose, 0.75gram of 100mg/1gram Tcream, may be too much, in that case. Hopefully within next two weeks I will not only get into more stable situation but will get my blood tested and figure out my status.
I have a total cooperation from my doctor and his nurse (I dance with her). Still my script for a blood test is messed up.
I went to Quest and asked them to check my script against my list of desired items, got so many items messed up.
I hope to straighten this thing up, so I can spare myself (and a doctor) grief the next time. With my previous doctor it took few rounds before I got what I want, but it was for a LabCorp, now I want a Quest. My blood test is not only about TRT, I want other checks that a appropriate for someone who's mind set is to "be the best you can".
During morning wood (5AM-8AM) my scrotum was tight, testicles rather soft. It was about 38 hours from last HCG shot. Got my next HCG shot at 10AM, by balls got harder 4 hrs latter. Wonder if it is something important enough to change to daily HCG shots (I would rather not)?
If there was a law that tells wife to not to waste good wood, the day would have been started at the right foot.
I am still naive, looking for justice.
03-17-2007, 10:42 AM
03-17-2007, 11:04 AM
I agree Dr John, but i don't seem to be responding well and i have literally tried everything. I think it is working somewhat but maybe not enough. I am seeing my options right now as sticking to androgel but using HCG after my operation for the varicocele.
03-17-2007, 11:15 AM
To be honest Hyde, from day one i didn't think the operation had worked fully right. The actual swelling/varicocele itself seemed to have gone away since the operation but my nut's for want of another word, went nut's. They were changing size/consistency on a daily basis for no apparent reason. When i went into a shower or somewhere hot i would get the feeling of 'back flow' and sometimes pain where the varicocele was.
Basically i went in for a second ultrasound and after doing some deep aspiration and tensing of my abdominal muscles it was noted that the varicocele hadn't been fully sealed off or a new channel had opened (another 3.5mm varicocele showing up). On screen i could literally see the blood polling back into the testicle and polluting it with problems (or "reflux").
So going back for another venogram (this time using special liquid to find the right veins) and then blocking them off properly. I am getting a different radiologist doing the operation this time round.
Finger's crossed i see improvements.
03-17-2007, 12:56 PM
I have read countless amounts of times from dozens upon dozens of people who have had MUCH better success with HRT when switching over to more frequent injects than once a week.
I know you see hundreds of patients and they do great on once weekly, but remember this - your average patient who gets online, spends lots of time on boards and researches the net - the kind of patients I get to talk to - are alot better informed than your average joe on HRT who hasn't spent much time informing himself. So I think alot of people on once per week injects might simply not even know enough to properly self analyze.
Not saying your average guy on HRT is an idiot, but you get my idea
I do firmly believe that alot on once week injects do great - all Im implying is that IMO its not as good - they would do even BETTER on more frequent injects.
Yes, muscle trama comes into play with more frequent injects. But there are ways to combat that. With smaller injects comes smaller needles which equals to less muscle trama. Plus, although its not widely studies or accepted, there is the idea of subQ injects.
I have seen test results from 4 - 5 different people who, on once weekly injects, and stable after 6 months, showed a significant drop in T by the 5th day after inject. It was more than 33% for all of them. If I remeber correctly, one of them had a T level slashed in half.
LOL I need to start bookmarking pages more often.
I was never high on the idea of TD's before, but now I believe that they are far, far superior to injects due to the very points I was making above - more stable T levels by day to day.
03-17-2007, 01:18 PM
03-17-2007, 01:36 PM
03-17-2007, 03:59 PM
Hyde you mentioned 2 thing's in that post that got my attention. First off, your nut's not hanging is a sign of problems (not just HPTA). Guy's with normal, functional HPTA who get varicocele even without any atrophy get the tight sack thing too. So it must be linked with the bad tempeture control due to stagnation of blood.
I would be willling to bet you didn't actually have epiditimitus but instead had the usual problem that varicocele sufferers have with epididmyl swelling due to blood flow problems. This is a bit double ended as guy's with actual epiditimitus can have blood flow problems in exchange and guy's with varicocele can have epiditimitus 'like' symptoms. You probably just have some swelling from the dodgy blood flow. This causes the epiditimys to expand/swell up.
Get another ultrasound done and find out how many vein's are still dielted. I could only see one on the ultrasound (color doppler) but it's possible maybe 2/3 exist. The venogram will give a clearer picture.
Have you tried running Nolva or HCG to see if your ball's respond?
03-17-2007, 05:33 PM
03-23-2007, 05:33 PM
hi can any one help its a big problem
i am a 43y male , my doctor ask me to have a blood test and i did. the result was as below:
serum TSH level 1.39 miu/L
serum estradiol level 151 pmol/L
serum testosterone 9.9 nmol/L
NOTE iam 43y male
could any one help me an tel me if this result is normal or note as my doctor didnt say a lot. i feel tired all the time , putting weight in my chest , sex problem , cant sleep , skin problem ....... please please help me as i dont know what to do
03-23-2007, 07:22 PM
but do the blood tests first.
Get a blood test similar to the two sets I posted here,3-22-2007, 01:30 PM :
Lab Results for 20 year old
then post results here.
Do the tests at Quest Diagnostics, if you can.
Post test values and usual ranges.
04-01-2007, 05:35 PM
I can relate to this so much except as far as I know my nuts are ok. I am currently awaiting my testosterone level results and have been supplimenting alot, I am 22 and in good health apart from this. As with Megazoid I am a similar build with little or no bodyfat but know that doesn't mean E2 isn't maybe high, elovating these unplesant shrinking/no labido symptoms. I have been supplimenting with DIM, vitamin E, 1 ZMA before bed and am thinking of adding something like Avena Sativa or Muira Puama that apparently free up bound testosterone to ease some of this and give me a boost because it gets you down. I don't know how these effect hormone levels in the long term.
04-01-2007, 06:57 PM
04-01-2007, 09:58 PM
TABLE 1: Mean (± STDev) Steady-State Serum Testosterone
Concentrations During Therapy (Day 180)
5 g 7.5 g 10 g
N = 44 N = 37 N = 48
Cavg 555 ± 225 601 ± 309 713 ± 209
Cmax 830 ± 347 901 ± 471 1083 ± 434
Cmin 371 ± 165 406 ± 220 485 ± 156
There were men that had 901+471=1372
on 7.5gram of Androgel
but on average they had 601
I had 664 on 5gram Androgel
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