Former Finasteride user-consequences??

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    Former Finasteride user-consequences??


    When I first started on TRT a couple years ago I had a doc who in retrospect didn't know much about TRT. He put me on Androgel per my request due to three blood tests in a row showing testosterone levels well below normal. He put me on Androgel 5 g per day. However somebody must have told this guy some horror stories because he was convinced I was going to get prostate cancer. My dht was elevated almost double the range but I think he overreacted and he put me on Finasteride (a whole pill every day). After a few weeks I started complaining of mild gyno and low sex drive. My blood tests showed elevated estrogen (estradiol) so he put me on 1 mg arimidex per day. Plus he said that I could use Nolvadex as well at 20 mg per day as long as gyno symptoms were ther. About three months into it I looked pretty good but something wasn't right in terms of sex drive. He said it would be fine, it was probably just stress. I read up and all fingers pointed towards the finasteride. Against his wishes I stopped taking it and refused to take it any longer. He said he could no longer write for androgel if i wasn't going to protect my prostate. I found another doctor who didn't feel the need to force feed me finasteride. I think he knew a little more but still he didn't seem too knowledgable in the field. I went on taking the arimidex and he bumped me up to 10 g androgel per day. I was my total test was up there and free test was pretty good too. However the new doc I'm seeing and have been going to for a year now has me on 100 mg test cyp. per week, hcg 250 iu 2x per week, dim complex, not to mention thyroid replacement and hgh. My total levels are excellent (TESTOSTERONE) top of the range and my shbg is a little on the low side. My estradiol (e2) is mid range, however my free test is low normal. My progesterone was a little elevated. My question is this. Could taking finasteride for an extended period of time have made my androgen receptors less sensitive? Would that mean that I would need a higher than normal testosterone level in order to reach my optimal free test levels?

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    Can you please tell us what your symptoms are at the moment? Did you get your sex drive back or is that still an issue?
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    I believe that there needs to be more research done in finasteride and the damages it can possible cause to steroid receptors sites. It must how desentize the androgen receptors or it makes a similar sceeerio to insulin sensitive although it being estrogen. Since your shbg is on the low side it might be advisible to see if adding armidex .25 mcg 3ETD would make a difference, but check with your doctor first before self implementing and driving it too low. I would love to see RBC fatty acids of people that are having these problems because I beleive rebalancing a person cell membrane lipid profile could mean all the difference. A possible theory is you are using fish oils you may have been over loaded in EPA/DHA which could be causing a hyper sensitivity to hormones due to increased cell membrane permeablilty.
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    So are you saying that you think I should chill out on the fish oils for a while??.....because I do take a high dose of those. I also take GLA (borage oil), DHEA-25 mg daily, Pregnenolone-10 mg daily, carnitine, b-vitamin, and multi-vitamin. I'll talk to doc about arimidex.
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    Again properr testing needs to be conducted to verify if the fish oils are needed via RBC fatty acid test via genova or great plains labs. I was told to take fish oild by ND and with in 6 months I caused an imbalance in my cell membrane and it caused alot of immune system problems and excessive oxidative stress. just aking 2 TSP a day for 6 months took my levels to 2.5 times the highest level of DHA EPA and drove my arachodonic into the ground and if you drive arachonic into the ground and body needs it will ripp right out of your cell membranes storage. and you have classic example of cell suicide. just like with anything you do not take Arimdex unless estrogen is out of balnace and more drs should start examing the cell membrane composition to verify what is needed. If dr told you to take then them you need to listen to your dr. i am just sharing the idea that for me with out knowing a starting point it was doing me more harm then good. Everything must be imbalance the proper ration is 1-4:1 omega 6 to 3.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willis3 View Post
    When I first started on TRT a couple years ago I had a doc who in retrospect didn't know much about TRT. He put me on Androgel per my request due to three blood tests in a row showing testosterone levels well below normal. He put me on Androgel 5 g per day. However somebody must have told this guy some horror stories because he was convinced I was going to get prostate cancer. My dht was elevated almost double the range but I think he overreacted and he put me on Finasteride (a whole pill every day). After a few weeks I started complaining of mild gyno and low sex drive. My blood tests showed elevated estrogen (estradiol) so he put me on 1 mg arimidex per day. Plus he said that I could use Nolvadex as well at 20 mg per day as long as gyno symptoms were ther. About three months into it I looked pretty good but something wasn't right in terms of sex drive. He said it would be fine, it was probably just stress. I read up and all fingers pointed towards the finasteride. Against his wishes I stopped taking it and refused to take it any longer. He said he could no longer write for androgel if i wasn't going to protect my prostate. I found another doctor who didn't feel the need to force feed me finasteride. I think he knew a little more but still he didn't seem too knowledgable in the field. I went on taking the arimidex and he bumped me up to 10 g androgel per day. I was my total test was up there and free test was pretty good too. However the new doc I'm seeing and have been going to for a year now has me on 100 mg test cyp. per week, hcg 250 iu 2x per week, dim complex, not to mention thyroid replacement and hgh. My total levels are excellent (TESTOSTERONE) top of the range and my shbg is a little on the low side. My estradiol (e2) is mid range, however my free test is low normal. My progesterone was a little elevated. My question is this. Could taking finasteride for an extended period of time have made my androgen receptors less sensitive? Would that mean that I would need a higher than normal testosterone level in order to reach my optimal free test levels?
    Post your
    TotalT
    SHBG
    Albumin

    E2
    DHT

    Any other that you may have, specially
    TotalEstrogens
    Estrodial
    FreeT3
    Cortisol
    Hematocrit
    CRP
    Ferritin
    IGF-1
    Progesterone
    Pregnenolone
    prolactin, serum
    Fibrinogen
    Bilirubin

    other

    Testosterone-vise I would look in this sequence
    BioAvailableT
    FreeT
    TotalT

    Be carefull of how you do the blood testing, with weekly T injections you are asking for fluctuations, not good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. John View Post
    Oh, so you are talking about taking TOO MUCH fish oil.
    Yes I was a flax seed freak for 4-5 years and was told to take fish oils by naturopathic dr and it caused an imbalance for a year 1 tsp went to get RBC Fattty acids checked and dha/epa were 2.5 times highest limit.
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    This is very interesting. I used to have a LOT of flaxseed oil when I was training a few years back to add fat so I didnt burn into muscle. I wonder if this has thrown my balance out too. Its around this time that also that I started feeling a little "off" and no doctor could figure out what the issue was.
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    This is an abstract I found regarding the DHT inhibiting properties of EFA's, mainly flaxseed oil.


    From most effective to least:

    1. y-linolenic acid
    2. arachidonic acid (a-linolenic acid)
    3. palmitoleic acid
    4. oleic acid
    5. myristoleic acid

    ----------------------------

    Abstract:

    Human or rat microsomal 5a-reductase activity, as measured by enzymic conversion of testosterone into 5adihydrotestosterone or by binding of a competitive inhibitor, [3H]J178-NN-diethylcarbamoyl-4-methyl-4-aza-5caandrostan- 3-one ([3H]4-MA) to the reductase, is inhibited by low concentrations (< 10 sM) of certain polyunsaturated fatty acids.

    The relative inhibitory potencies of unsaturated fatty acids are, in decreasing order: y-linolenic acid > cis-4,7,10,13,16,19-docosahexaenoic acid = cis-6,9,12,15-octatetraenoic acid = arachidonic acid = a-linolenic acid > linoleic acid > palmitoleic acid > oleic acid > myristoleic acid.

    Other unsaturated fatty acids such as undecylenic acid, erucic acid and nervonic acid, are inactive. The methyl esters and alcohol analogues of these compounds, glycerols, phospholipids, saturated fatty acids, retinoids and carotenes were inactive even at 0.2 mm.

    The results of the binding assay and the enzymic assay correlated well except for elaidic acid and linolelaidic acid, the trans isomers of oleic acid and linoleic acid respectively, which were much less active than their cis isomers in the binding assay but were as potent in the enzymic assay.

    y-Linolenic acid had no effect on the activities of two other rat liver microsomal enzymes: NADH:menadione reductase and glucuronosyl transferase.

    y-Linolenic acid, the most potent inhibitor tested, decreased the VmJ' and increased Km values of substrates, NADPH and testosterone, and promoted dissociation of [3H]4-MA from the microsomal reductase.

    y-Linolenic acid, but not the corresponding saturated fatty acid (stearic acid), inhibited the 5areductase activity, but not the 1 7#-dehydrogenase activity, of human prostate cancer cells in culture.

    These results suggest that unsaturated fatty acids may play an important role in regulating androgen action in target cells
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardasnails1973 View Post
    I believe that there needs to be more research done in finasteride and the damages it can possible cause to steroid receptors sites. It must how desentize the androgen receptors or it makes a similar sceeerio to insulin sensitive although it being estrogen. Since your shbg is on the low side it might be advisible to see if adding armidex .25 mcg 3ETD would make a difference, but check with your doctor first before self implementing and driving it too low. I would love to see RBC fatty acids of people that are having these problems because I beleive rebalancing a person cell membrane lipid profile could mean all the difference. A possible theory is you are using fish oils you may have been over loaded in EPA/DHA which could be causing a hyper sensitivity to hormones due to increased cell membrane permeablilty.
    If this is true, regarding fish oils and increased sensitivity to hormones concerning cell membrane permeability then i should or shouldnt take more fish oils? I have tried like 2 capsules of borage oil in my whole life and still finasteride effects on me are very strong despite refraining from the drug for 4 yrs now.
    Very interesting though i will check further into the role of fish oils. Thanks.

    Concerning the SHBG, what happens when it is very low, mine is below normal range lately. I remind you im trying to overcome an overtraining state at the moment and for the last 4 months and have been an ex finasteride user. Do i have to correct the shbg somehow? My testo level is 4.25 (normal is 4-11)
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    Quote Originally Posted by solonjk View Post
    If this is true, regarding fish oils and increased sensitivity to hormones concerning cell membrane permeability then i should or shouldnt take more fish oils? I have tried like 2 capsules of borage oil in my whole life and still finasteride effects on me are very strong despite refraining from the drug for 4 yrs now.Very interesting though i will check further into the role of fish oils. Thanks.

    Concerning the SHBG, what happens when it is very low, mine is below normal range lately. I remind you im trying to overcome an overtraining state at the moment and for the last 4 months and have been an ex finasteride user. Do i have to correct the shbg somehow? My testo level is 4.25 (normal is 4-11)
    Possibly urine test plus interpretation by Jonathan Wright, MD is the way to go for you.

    Look at this Marianco's post.
    http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/525481-post3.html
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    Urine test of what? I live in Greece, doctors here dont know about finasteride or its use.

    The one and only doctor that did hear of it and prescribed it to me, told me i was mad when i informed him that after discontinuing the drug i still had side effects. He just couldnt accept that as a fact.

    And that was my Dermatology Professor in the Medical University that i study.
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    Quote Originally Posted by solonjk View Post
    Urine test of what? I live in Greece, doctors here dont know about finasteride or its use.

    The one and only doctor that did hear of it and prescribed it to me, told me i was mad when i informed him that after discontinuing the drug i still had side effects. He just couldnt accept that as a fact.

    And that was my Dermatology Professor in the Medical University that i study.
    You have advantage, you study medicine, study this issue, make it your thesis, consider it part of your specialty.
    Post what you find.
    Consider anti-aging as your specialty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    You have advantage, you study medicine, study this issue, make it your thesis, consider it part of your specialty.
    Post what you find.
    Consider anti-aging as your specialty.
    You know smthing, i thought it was easy to give advice and deal with other peoples problems. But when it comes to me
    the more i study about my own problems the more confused and uncertain i become. Its so complicated, so many parameters to deal with in my case.

    Anyways, pretty interesting insight this urine test. I just phoned up the hospital and they told me they would have to check their kits in order to see if it is possible to get dht and testo urine tests!!

    What other hormones/elements should i check in my urine? I hope i wont be looking for people to interprete the results after that
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    Quote Originally Posted by solonjk View Post
    Urine test of what? I live in Greece, doctors here dont know about finasteride or its use.

    The one and only doctor that did hear of it and prescribed it to me, told me i was mad when i informed him that after discontinuing the drug i still had side effects. He just couldnt accept that as a fact.

    And that was my Dermatology Professor in the Medical University that i study.
    You need to keep looking for a doctor familiar with finasteride or at least hypogonadism or you will be chasing your tail. It pays to go straight to anti-aging docs that know what they are doing instead of messing around with most endos who are not up to speed with this stuff yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by solonjk View Post
    You know smthing, i thought it was easy to give advice and deal with other peoples problems. But when it comes to me
    the more i study about my own problems the more confused and uncertain i become. Its so complicated, so many parameters to deal with in my case.

    Anyways, pretty interesting insight this urine test. I just phoned up the hospital and they told me they would have to check their kits in order to see if it is possible to get dht and testo urine tests!!

    What other hormones/elements should i check in my urine? I hope i wont be looking for people to interprete the results after that
    Get best urine test list that you can.
    Recheck the list with
    rheinlabs.com
    possibly talk to someone from RheinLabs
    Do your test, get results and best interpretation you can get locally.

    Possibly have your test interpreted by someone from RheiLabs.

    Post the test here.

    Dr. John may do some example explanation to educate this board.
    This, if at all, would be just a general case since you are not his patient.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You may want to contact Jonathan Wright, MD

    tahomac@tahoma-clinic.com <tahomac@tahoma-clinic.com>


    Dr. Wright's Tahoma Clinic and the Tahoma Clinic Dispensary

    He is being mentioned by Dr Marianco as the top dog in urine tests interpretations.

    Instead RheinLabs you may want to check your list with tahoma-clinic, before you actually do the test.

    Lots of preparations, I know.
  

  
 

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